Anyone thought of studying an MBA?
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Teamworking skills
Ghengis
Most engineers I know are leaders. Thats what the job is about. The staff TRUST you to lead with responsibility to keep them safe and in work.
Don't let this "teamwork" stuff lead you astray.
The teamwork theory leads companies into trouble. The only company in aviation in the EUR that has the true partnership principal is Lufthansa.
Whilst I accept that the idea is good, and many, if not all MBAs, will say YES we agree...yet few of them know exactly what this means and worse, they have zero personal skills to bring the change about.
If we take Rolls Royce for instance. The board have all attended INSEAD business school yet the company is split into separate cost cells. The same with EADS. The same with Quintiq.
It is rhetoric Genghis. Snake oil talk. Pure rhetoric here in the EUR.
Futhermore there has to be demarkation where your particular responsibility ends and the other engineers' job starts. That is what the MBA people do not understand...the only negotiation that can occur is scheduling and fits..how the job mates up insitu.
When they start setting one team agin the other on the SAME job it can cause chaos..and you know what... a lot of them enjoy really that. They will be gone by the time the job has finished. Thats why they get short scrift by engineers...real world stuff is not cosy little seminar exercises in the class room.
Most engineers I know are leaders. Thats what the job is about. The staff TRUST you to lead with responsibility to keep them safe and in work.
Don't let this "teamwork" stuff lead you astray.
The teamwork theory leads companies into trouble. The only company in aviation in the EUR that has the true partnership principal is Lufthansa.
Whilst I accept that the idea is good, and many, if not all MBAs, will say YES we agree...yet few of them know exactly what this means and worse, they have zero personal skills to bring the change about.
If we take Rolls Royce for instance. The board have all attended INSEAD business school yet the company is split into separate cost cells. The same with EADS. The same with Quintiq.
It is rhetoric Genghis. Snake oil talk. Pure rhetoric here in the EUR.
Futhermore there has to be demarkation where your particular responsibility ends and the other engineers' job starts. That is what the MBA people do not understand...the only negotiation that can occur is scheduling and fits..how the job mates up insitu.
When they start setting one team agin the other on the SAME job it can cause chaos..and you know what... a lot of them enjoy really that. They will be gone by the time the job has finished. Thats why they get short scrift by engineers...real world stuff is not cosy little seminar exercises in the class room.
Last edited by DERG; 1st Mar 2011 at 11:51.
Sorry DERG, I don't really agree on a number of points.
If you take somebody who fits in well with the company ethos, and has natural leadership abilities - then put them through an MBA, then they still have all of that, plus a lot of management technical skills.
Similarly, take a complete a*****e, who everybody hates, and put them through an MBA, then they'll be an a*****e with management technical skills.
So, some good people will be made better, and some idiots will unfortunately be given a bit more credibility than they deserve. Ultimately however, they are still the same people, just with an MBA.
So it really isn't the MBA that's at fault - other than it tends to give a bit more credibility to people who really shouldn't be put in charge of anything.
Are engineers naturally leaders? Like other professions, some are, some aren't. We probably are more naturally managers than most other professions - because every nature of our job requires a systematic and ordered way of working, as well as a good understanding of what everybody else is doing.
But management is not the same as leadership. This simple fact is sadly very poorly understood.
So, for example, I know somebody who is a pretty mediocre engineer who has been given the management tools, and place as a project manager. Juggling all the bits and bobs, he does a great job of it. If you put him in charge of a department, he'd probably be a disaster, because he doesn't have the leadership skills. I suspect if you asked him, he'd agree with this.
The classic fictional example is Captain Kirk; he did not have the technical skills of any of his team, and I like to think that Mr Spock was regularly being driven up the wall by his failing to keep the accounts and audit procedures in order. On the other hand, he shows the characteristics of a brilliant leader, who used the good people around him to get the job done well.
But I'll bet that Mr Spock was the one with the MBA! Technically brilliant as a science officer, and a manager - but he needed the MBA because he was never going to have Captain Kirk's leadership skills. On the other hand, he knew his limitations and worked to them.
G
If you take somebody who fits in well with the company ethos, and has natural leadership abilities - then put them through an MBA, then they still have all of that, plus a lot of management technical skills.
Similarly, take a complete a*****e, who everybody hates, and put them through an MBA, then they'll be an a*****e with management technical skills.
So, some good people will be made better, and some idiots will unfortunately be given a bit more credibility than they deserve. Ultimately however, they are still the same people, just with an MBA.
So it really isn't the MBA that's at fault - other than it tends to give a bit more credibility to people who really shouldn't be put in charge of anything.
Are engineers naturally leaders? Like other professions, some are, some aren't. We probably are more naturally managers than most other professions - because every nature of our job requires a systematic and ordered way of working, as well as a good understanding of what everybody else is doing.
But management is not the same as leadership. This simple fact is sadly very poorly understood.
So, for example, I know somebody who is a pretty mediocre engineer who has been given the management tools, and place as a project manager. Juggling all the bits and bobs, he does a great job of it. If you put him in charge of a department, he'd probably be a disaster, because he doesn't have the leadership skills. I suspect if you asked him, he'd agree with this.
The classic fictional example is Captain Kirk; he did not have the technical skills of any of his team, and I like to think that Mr Spock was regularly being driven up the wall by his failing to keep the accounts and audit procedures in order. On the other hand, he shows the characteristics of a brilliant leader, who used the good people around him to get the job done well.
But I'll bet that Mr Spock was the one with the MBA! Technically brilliant as a science officer, and a manager - but he needed the MBA because he was never going to have Captain Kirk's leadership skills. On the other hand, he knew his limitations and worked to them.
G
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To me the measure of an engineer is his character when events or people threaten his task. I have always been at "the coal face" and the work managed me mostly. If you are committed to the job you really do not need to be "managed". Advised yes but directed no. None of my colleagues were managed and all of us did a good job. I only made a half million pound mistake once, that's good going.
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No Genghis. When the Qantas T972 engine exploded I researched what was known and joined here.
I have yet to see much difference between what I was taught back in the 1970s and the application of engineering principles to commercial aviation.
It has been a learning exercise for me and of course I can go places where others can't with no conflict of loyalty or pecuniary penalty.
The T972 investigation has been very useful, an emancipation into gas turbine technology. I was not ready for what I found on the board of Rolls Royce and the methods used to evaluate product quality. That was quite frightening.
I have yet to see much difference between what I was taught back in the 1970s and the application of engineering principles to commercial aviation.
It has been a learning exercise for me and of course I can go places where others can't with no conflict of loyalty or pecuniary penalty.
The T972 investigation has been very useful, an emancipation into gas turbine technology. I was not ready for what I found on the board of Rolls Royce and the methods used to evaluate product quality. That was quite frightening.
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Genghis, Take at look at the last couple of days on -
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43797...ml#post6279116
The guy's a lunatic who's ruining the credibility of the the tech side of Prune.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43797...ml#post6279116
The guy's a lunatic who's ruining the credibility of the the tech side of Prune.
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Robert,
I originally trained as an engineer and did an Executive MBA at a 'red brick' university after 15 years in the aerospace industry (2006). Apart from the networking opportunities and the experience of being back at uni, I didn't really learn anything of substance that I hadn't already figured out. My experience is that many graduate engineers become managers as a virtue of their role with some developing good management traits whilst others lack even the most basic social skills. But this is no different to almost any profession!
I found the MBA to be the application of common sense wrapped in a little business jargon and bound in books. I have no doubt that it opens a few employment doors but if you are pitching yourself at MBA level employment, the likelihood is that you will be more successful by networking or being head-hunted. Spend £20 on an MBA overview book at WH Smiths and see if this is what you want before you enrol. I was on a course with a mixed cohort of engineers, doctors, public sector high-flyers (no pun) and a few directors - all 3 of the engineers were bored throughout apart from the maths within the accounting and finance module (sad I know).
Would I do it again if I could go back? Probably not. I would likely undertake an MSc. Little use now as I have moved to the dark side and decided to fly instead of fix. Good luck with your decision...
I originally trained as an engineer and did an Executive MBA at a 'red brick' university after 15 years in the aerospace industry (2006). Apart from the networking opportunities and the experience of being back at uni, I didn't really learn anything of substance that I hadn't already figured out. My experience is that many graduate engineers become managers as a virtue of their role with some developing good management traits whilst others lack even the most basic social skills. But this is no different to almost any profession!
I found the MBA to be the application of common sense wrapped in a little business jargon and bound in books. I have no doubt that it opens a few employment doors but if you are pitching yourself at MBA level employment, the likelihood is that you will be more successful by networking or being head-hunted. Spend £20 on an MBA overview book at WH Smiths and see if this is what you want before you enrol. I was on a course with a mixed cohort of engineers, doctors, public sector high-flyers (no pun) and a few directors - all 3 of the engineers were bored throughout apart from the maths within the accounting and finance module (sad I know).
Would I do it again if I could go back? Probably not. I would likely undertake an MSc. Little use now as I have moved to the dark side and decided to fly instead of fix. Good luck with your decision...
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Originally Posted by DERG
When the Qantas T972 engine exploded I researched what was known and joined here.
You joined this website 26th Oct 2009 and made your first post 27th Oct 2009. Your first post was about beer.
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Really....? That's interesting. What else did you discover?
Would be a good idea to shift that to another dedicated thread though.
Maybe call it DERG and THE TRUTH
That would work dontch'ya think
You could do all sorts of statistical stuff with the posts too .You could use a fancy programme
Make graphs and pie charts...pass it on to the Bayesians.
I can see pictures work better.
Would be a good idea to shift that to another dedicated thread though.
Maybe call it DERG and THE TRUTH
That would work dontch'ya think
You could do all sorts of statistical stuff with the posts too .You could use a fancy programme
Make graphs and pie charts...pass it on to the Bayesians.
I can see pictures work better.
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What is interesting is that either you don't know your own history here or you choose to be deliberately misleading about it.
What is also interesting is that in nearly all threads you get involved with someone ends up questioning whether you are in possession of all your faculties, to put it politely.
Perhaps you ought to spend some time contemplating why that is.
What is also interesting is that in nearly all threads you get involved with someone ends up questioning whether you are in possession of all your faculties, to put it politely.
Perhaps you ought to spend some time contemplating why that is.
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Self critical technique was part of my training as an engineer.
Of course when one knows that one is correct when another claims you are incorrect it can be a problem especially if one or more parties feels inferior to the other.
Even worse is the case when one knows one is correct and the disputant is of a higher ranking than one's own position.
The situation is common within the UK because of the social structures within a small island. It does exist elsewhere too I am sure. Of course aviation inherently has a hiracy hence the use of CRM techniques.
"whether you are in possession of all your faculties, to put it politely"
The standard question the medic asks you if he seeks to establish sanity is "MrX...do you know who the prime minister is?" This for a basic cognition test.
There are many more.
Of course one has to be aware of the motives the questioner has in asking that question. In fact to "section" someone needs three signatures on a formal written statement. It is a very serious matter. Not something that most people want to be involved with.
Of course when one knows that one is correct when another claims you are incorrect it can be a problem especially if one or more parties feels inferior to the other.
Even worse is the case when one knows one is correct and the disputant is of a higher ranking than one's own position.
The situation is common within the UK because of the social structures within a small island. It does exist elsewhere too I am sure. Of course aviation inherently has a hiracy hence the use of CRM techniques.
"whether you are in possession of all your faculties, to put it politely"
The standard question the medic asks you if he seeks to establish sanity is "MrX...do you know who the prime minister is?" This for a basic cognition test.
There are many more.
Of course one has to be aware of the motives the questioner has in asking that question. In fact to "section" someone needs three signatures on a formal written statement. It is a very serious matter. Not something that most people want to be involved with.
