Can we attract kids into Aviation Engineering?
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Well we're looking at additional courses, both for new starters and current mechs - things like wire locking, fastener removal (our old aeroplanes are idea for that!), the usual human factor stuff, visual inspection techniques... in short, things that the traditional quals tend to avoid.
.. and I was a mech/tech. Last of the Jelly Tots...
.. and I was a mech/tech. Last of the Jelly Tots...
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That would depend on the professionalism of the college, plus it should not have cost your brother anything if it was his first course at that level. With a foundation degree course tacked onto a part 147 course, student grants will cover both the fees and expenses.
There is a circle here - industry wants experienced engineers, but will not provide the initial experience themselves! Where does the required level of live experience come from?At the end of the day we have a big problem with this industry - the industry wants apprentice-trained engineers, but cannot and will not pay for the training.
Thats why these new academies exist. They provide cheap-ish training which is recognised by the CAA. There is a distinct issue with this route though - no-one pays for practical training at all. The part 147 courses are almost all theoretical because that is what the CAA ask for (completion of the exams). The CAA do not fund the modules, and therefore to cover costs, the part 147 schools are forced to attach another (funded) course. In most cases, this is the Foundation degree.
The facilities offered by colleges and academies will never be as good as an MRO offering an apprenticeship, simply down to cost. We are lucky - we have a Boeing 737 on which we can initiate the kids, as well as a Jetstream and a couple of old RAF trainers. We have had to purchase them outright, hence they are massively out of date. To give you an idea of cost, I recently asked for a quote for an out of life A320 to be delivered to replace the 737-200 series... the cost of a dead aircraft with fully working systems was ten times more than it cost to build a brand new hangar, 35 sets of tools, support equipment, furniture, etc - a complete academy set up). We can't provide the practical facilities given by apprenticeship providers, but we are working on it!
To get into an academy, a student must have either relevant engineering experience (ie. a mechanic) or rise through the academic ranks via a lower level course (currently the BTEC system).
I cannot speak for other institutions, but with mine we are honest with the students at all times and inform them of any jobs which appear through our personal contacts within industry, or that there are no jobs anywhere. We cannot and do not offer guarantees of employment - name me a course which does!
So the colleges and academies have filled a gap left by the apprenticeships (there are still some out there), but still have alot to learn about the ever changing requirements of the industry, in particular relating funding for theoretical courses, but delivering practical apprenticeships...
There is a circle here - industry wants experienced engineers, but will not provide the initial experience themselves! Where does the required level of live experience come from?At the end of the day we have a big problem with this industry - the industry wants apprentice-trained engineers, but cannot and will not pay for the training.
Thats why these new academies exist. They provide cheap-ish training which is recognised by the CAA. There is a distinct issue with this route though - no-one pays for practical training at all. The part 147 courses are almost all theoretical because that is what the CAA ask for (completion of the exams). The CAA do not fund the modules, and therefore to cover costs, the part 147 schools are forced to attach another (funded) course. In most cases, this is the Foundation degree.
The facilities offered by colleges and academies will never be as good as an MRO offering an apprenticeship, simply down to cost. We are lucky - we have a Boeing 737 on which we can initiate the kids, as well as a Jetstream and a couple of old RAF trainers. We have had to purchase them outright, hence they are massively out of date. To give you an idea of cost, I recently asked for a quote for an out of life A320 to be delivered to replace the 737-200 series... the cost of a dead aircraft with fully working systems was ten times more than it cost to build a brand new hangar, 35 sets of tools, support equipment, furniture, etc - a complete academy set up). We can't provide the practical facilities given by apprenticeship providers, but we are working on it!
To get into an academy, a student must have either relevant engineering experience (ie. a mechanic) or rise through the academic ranks via a lower level course (currently the BTEC system).
I cannot speak for other institutions, but with mine we are honest with the students at all times and inform them of any jobs which appear through our personal contacts within industry, or that there are no jobs anywhere. We cannot and do not offer guarantees of employment - name me a course which does!
So the colleges and academies have filled a gap left by the apprenticeships (there are still some out there), but still have alot to learn about the ever changing requirements of the industry, in particular relating funding for theoretical courses, but delivering practical apprenticeships...
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Care to explain how it is a scam?... unless you expect teachers to work for free? Perhaps you should be asking the big MROs why they don't train engineers themselves?
We tell our guys before they sign up that out of 100, perhaps 10 will progress. We offer transferable skills - engineering is engineering after all. Can't get into this industry? Try another!
I'd have killed for a BA apprenticship but they stopped doing them when I was looking for such a thing.
Given that UK apprenticeships are so few and far between, how do you propose we train the future LAMEs?.... or should we not -simply let the French or Germans fix our aircraft once all the Apprenticeship trained UK engineers are all retired.....
We tell our guys before they sign up that out of 100, perhaps 10 will progress. We offer transferable skills - engineering is engineering after all. Can't get into this industry? Try another!
I'd have killed for a BA apprenticship but they stopped doing them when I was looking for such a thing.
Given that UK apprenticeships are so few and far between, how do you propose we train the future LAMEs?.... or should we not -simply let the French or Germans fix our aircraft once all the Apprenticeship trained UK engineers are all retired.....
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So to prevent thread drift.........
The young generation who are willing to become aircraft engineers exist, but there simply is not the massive demand for them that was forecasted before 9/11 and the global recession.
The young generation who are willing to become aircraft engineers exist, but there simply is not the massive demand for them that was forecasted before 9/11 and the global recession.
I firmly believe - You're all barking up the wrong tree!
It's the KIDS you need to engage, not the school leavers.
That is the first hurdle the industry has to cross - "HOW TO ATTRACT KIDS...?"
Once you have got the KIDS interested, many of them will join 'whatever' scheme to get where they want to be - like wanting to work on aircraft.
The industry, certainly the UK industry, MUST start making the job VISIBLE (which flies against airline principles) to get KIDS looking at aircraft first, and then interested enough to ask questions about how they work.
The question should be:
"What Carrots can we dangle to get kids interested in aircraft maintenance or design?"
My personal belief is that we (UK) concentrate too much on higher levels of education rather than going for more achievable goals (like being a "mere" mechanic rather than aiming to be the go-getting multi-millionaire head of aircraft manufacturing)
Whether that course comes with a degree or a licence is not too important to those keen to get into the industry - but getting someone KEEN to learn and join, is important to the industry.
It's the KIDS you need to engage, not the school leavers.
That is the first hurdle the industry has to cross - "HOW TO ATTRACT KIDS...?"
Once you have got the KIDS interested, many of them will join 'whatever' scheme to get where they want to be - like wanting to work on aircraft.
The industry, certainly the UK industry, MUST start making the job VISIBLE (which flies against airline principles) to get KIDS looking at aircraft first, and then interested enough to ask questions about how they work.
The question should be:
"What Carrots can we dangle to get kids interested in aircraft maintenance or design?"
My personal belief is that we (UK) concentrate too much on higher levels of education rather than going for more achievable goals (like being a "mere" mechanic rather than aiming to be the go-getting multi-millionaire head of aircraft manufacturing)
Whether that course comes with a degree or a licence is not too important to those keen to get into the industry - but getting someone KEEN to learn and join, is important to the industry.
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doh! 
my bad...
Aircraft museums are where I started off... learning how to make and rebuild panels.... great fun.
TV programmes on BBC, like Test Pilot and Reaching |For The Skies....
Glamourous aircraft, like Concorde......
My 4 year old is mad keen on aircraft - he knows a Spitfire on sight and can differentiate between a Spit and a Hurricane. He knows Lancasters and Concorde, and likes going to airshows - a whole day where he is constantly engaged! Seeing another A320 is not fun......
my bad...Aircraft museums are where I started off... learning how to make and rebuild panels.... great fun.
TV programmes on BBC, like Test Pilot and Reaching |For The Skies....
Glamourous aircraft, like Concorde......
My 4 year old is mad keen on aircraft - he knows a Spitfire on sight and can differentiate between a Spit and a Hurricane. He knows Lancasters and Concorde, and likes going to airshows - a whole day where he is constantly engaged! Seeing another A320 is not fun......
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Tranwell,
Thank you for clarifying your CV.
Reading between the lines, I get the distinct impression that the proposed mech.course is simply another revenue stream aimed at the exploitation of potential engineers. Nothing more or less. This new potential source of revenue wouldn't by any chance be related to the Govt's ahem "suggestion" that the peasants should forego University in favour of more vocational based careers would it ?....or just a pure coincidence?. Actually, I do agree that some of the more useless Degree courses should be scrapped. However.
As for the RAF, well it may surprise you to learn that they offer a very similar course of stuctured training..mech to tech via about 18months of productive employment on a Sqdn as a liney. It may not be quite as in depth as the DE / app route, but it is a very robust and professional training regime. True, the product, in marketing speak, won't be in the civilian world for a good few years, but when they do enter the market, they will at least have a range of hands on skills and experience to make the transition. Which is a bit more than can said for the theorists who were conned by some training providers into believing they would be LAE's and thus command £££'s salaries from the moment they arrived with a shiny new licence at the hangar doors.
There's also the little matter, sadly, of a rather large surplus of engineers ( mech / tech / LAE ) on the market at the moment is there not..plus a few more from Woodford / Chadd / Warton etc in the near future. All of these guys will already have the relevant experience to become mechs in the maintenance world.
So, are you a teacher with Cert.Ed....or an instructor I wonder?...there's a distinct difference here.
I agree with Rigga however on several points as to how to attract kids...that said, the industry as a whole has never really promoted engineering as a career for many, many years added to which is that engineers can be their own worst enemy at times when it comes to public awareness of what we do.
As for a BA apprenticeship, well personally, I wouldn't touch some of them from a certain era with a bargepole..."gods gift to aviation"...their philosophy, not mine and I have less than fond memories of one I encountered who informed that as he was a BOAC radio app, he had done a proper apprenticeship, unlike the RAF version.
Thank you for clarifying your CV.
Reading between the lines, I get the distinct impression that the proposed mech.course is simply another revenue stream aimed at the exploitation of potential engineers. Nothing more or less. This new potential source of revenue wouldn't by any chance be related to the Govt's ahem "suggestion" that the peasants should forego University in favour of more vocational based careers would it ?....or just a pure coincidence?. Actually, I do agree that some of the more useless Degree courses should be scrapped. However.
As for the RAF, well it may surprise you to learn that they offer a very similar course of stuctured training..mech to tech via about 18months of productive employment on a Sqdn as a liney. It may not be quite as in depth as the DE / app route, but it is a very robust and professional training regime. True, the product, in marketing speak, won't be in the civilian world for a good few years, but when they do enter the market, they will at least have a range of hands on skills and experience to make the transition. Which is a bit more than can said for the theorists who were conned by some training providers into believing they would be LAE's and thus command £££'s salaries from the moment they arrived with a shiny new licence at the hangar doors.
There's also the little matter, sadly, of a rather large surplus of engineers ( mech / tech / LAE ) on the market at the moment is there not..plus a few more from Woodford / Chadd / Warton etc in the near future. All of these guys will already have the relevant experience to become mechs in the maintenance world.
So, are you a teacher with Cert.Ed....or an instructor I wonder?...there's a distinct difference here.
I agree with Rigga however on several points as to how to attract kids...that said, the industry as a whole has never really promoted engineering as a career for many, many years added to which is that engineers can be their own worst enemy at times when it comes to public awareness of what we do.
As for a BA apprenticeship, well personally, I wouldn't touch some of them from a certain era with a bargepole..."gods gift to aviation"...their philosophy, not mine and I have less than fond memories of one I encountered who informed that as he was a BOAC radio app, he had done a proper apprenticeship, unlike the RAF version.
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 10th Jan 2011 at 05:48.
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"I get the distinct impression that the proposed mech.course is simply another revenue stream aimed at the exploitation of potential engineers. Nothing more or less. This new potential source of revenue wouldn't by any chance be related to the Govt's ahem "suggestion" that the peasants should forego University in favour of more vocational based careers would it ?...."
No it isn't. We need to diversify our products in order to survive. Simple as that. The Government have cut our funding, so we must come up with a useful service that we can charge for.
"As for the RAF, well it may surprise you to learn that they offer a very similar course of stuctured training..mech to tech via about 18months of productive employment on a Sqdn as a liney. It may not be quite as in depth as the DE / app route, but it is a very robust and professional training regime. True, the product, in marketing speak, won't be in the civilian world for a good few years, but when they do enter the market, they will at least have a range of hands on skills and experience to make the transition."
I did that scheme, and found out first hand that both the qualifications and experience DO NOT COUNT towards the experience required to hold a B1 or B2 licence. The only merits are that, yes the ex-RAF chap will know how to wield a spanner and be damn good at wire locking having had the benefit of years of playing with military aircraft, however, the CAA does not recognise them. Again, I speak from first hand experience.
And to answer the final question - I am an aircraft engineer, first and foremost. I started as an instructor, but currently studying DTLLS (Cert Ed is so last year.. :P) in order to maintain my status as an FE/HE lecturer.
No it isn't. We need to diversify our products in order to survive. Simple as that. The Government have cut our funding, so we must come up with a useful service that we can charge for.
"As for the RAF, well it may surprise you to learn that they offer a very similar course of stuctured training..mech to tech via about 18months of productive employment on a Sqdn as a liney. It may not be quite as in depth as the DE / app route, but it is a very robust and professional training regime. True, the product, in marketing speak, won't be in the civilian world for a good few years, but when they do enter the market, they will at least have a range of hands on skills and experience to make the transition."
I did that scheme, and found out first hand that both the qualifications and experience DO NOT COUNT towards the experience required to hold a B1 or B2 licence. The only merits are that, yes the ex-RAF chap will know how to wield a spanner and be damn good at wire locking having had the benefit of years of playing with military aircraft, however, the CAA does not recognise them. Again, I speak from first hand experience.
And to answer the final question - I am an aircraft engineer, first and foremost. I started as an instructor, but currently studying DTLLS (Cert Ed is so last year.. :P) in order to maintain my status as an FE/HE lecturer.
The military in the UK really doesn't do people any great favours sometimes.
As well as problems getting a civil licence, the academic training that the RAF give people rarely contain enough science and maths to allow them to do a degree after they leave either.
A shame really, and a huge missed opportunity for the RAF to serve the greater national good. By contrast the Irish Air Corps now offer degree level education to all of their new aircraft technician entrants.
It is embarrasing where the Irish Air Corps, with a total strength of about 840 is setting higher standards than the RAF !
G
As well as problems getting a civil licence, the academic training that the RAF give people rarely contain enough science and maths to allow them to do a degree after they leave either.
A shame really, and a huge missed opportunity for the RAF to serve the greater national good. By contrast the Irish Air Corps now offer degree level education to all of their new aircraft technician entrants.
It is embarrasing where the Irish Air Corps, with a total strength of about 840 is setting higher standards than the RAF !
G
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I have not long been out of college myself - I am 23 years old, and 6 years ago I chose to do an Aerospace Engineering BTEC National Diploma programme at my local college.
I have always been interested in Aircraft from an early age, and my dream job would be a Pilot, I knew that this would never happen due to financial costs, and so proceeded with the next best thing - Aircraft Engineer.
I did the course and loved it!! However after the course I soon found out that there were hardly any jobs in my area ( Birmingham ). A mate of mine who was on the course eventually went to Bristol to study Aircraft Engineering further, but apart from that, I dont have a clue what everyone else did!
I now work for West Midlands Police, so them two years I did for Aerospace Engineering was more or less a waste of time.
Even though I now have a career, my dream is still to become a pilot, or at least one day work with Aircraft, but I fail to see how that is going to come about at the moment.
I have always been interested in Aircraft from an early age, and my dream job would be a Pilot, I knew that this would never happen due to financial costs, and so proceeded with the next best thing - Aircraft Engineer.
I did the course and loved it!! However after the course I soon found out that there were hardly any jobs in my area ( Birmingham ). A mate of mine who was on the course eventually went to Bristol to study Aircraft Engineering further, but apart from that, I dont have a clue what everyone else did!
I now work for West Midlands Police, so them two years I did for Aerospace Engineering was more or less a waste of time.
Even though I now have a career, my dream is still to become a pilot, or at least one day work with Aircraft, but I fail to see how that is going to come about at the moment.
I have not long been out of college myself - I am 23 years old, and 6 years ago I chose to do an Aerospace Engineering BTEC National Diploma programme at my local college.
I have always been interested in Aircraft from an early age, and my dream job would be a Pilot, I knew that this would never happen due to financial costs, and so proceeded with the next best thing - Aircraft Engineer.
I did the course and loved it!! However after the course I soon found out that there were hardly any jobs in my area ( Birmingham ). A mate of mine who was on the course eventually went to Bristol to study Aircraft Engineering further, but apart from that, I dont have a clue what everyone else did!
I now work for West Midlands Police, so them two years I did for Aerospace Engineering was more or less a waste of time.
Even though I now have a career, my dream is still to become a pilot, or at least one day work with Aircraft, but I fail to see how that is going to come about at the moment.
I have always been interested in Aircraft from an early age, and my dream job would be a Pilot, I knew that this would never happen due to financial costs, and so proceeded with the next best thing - Aircraft Engineer.
I did the course and loved it!! However after the course I soon found out that there were hardly any jobs in my area ( Birmingham ). A mate of mine who was on the course eventually went to Bristol to study Aircraft Engineering further, but apart from that, I dont have a clue what everyone else did!
I now work for West Midlands Police, so them two years I did for Aerospace Engineering was more or less a waste of time.
Even though I now have a career, my dream is still to become a pilot, or at least one day work with Aircraft, but I fail to see how that is going to come about at the moment.
G
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Supply and Demand
Next time someone suggests Av Techs are not required tell 'em this:BOEING
predicts world demand is 30 900 new jets in the next 18 years.
7 000 of these will be in Europe
These are NEW machines.
AIRBUS predicts
25 000 NEW machines seating over 100 pax in the next 17 years.
geographical demand is:
Asia Pacific 31%
Europe 25%
N America 23%
Now they may want to reduce maintenance on these new machines but as long as we are able to relocate to where the jobs are there should be plenty of work around.
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Hi Genghis
Thanks for the reply! I would love to do a PPL, and it wasnt that long ago I had some money saved up to gain some flying hours and work towards obtaining the license, however I came to a point in my life where myself and my partner had to make a massive decision, which was to either carry on living with her parents, or buy a house whilst the time was right.
We chose the house option, which I suppose was the right decision to make as its an investment.
I still have spare cash every so often, I could probably afford £100 a month on flying if I was careful. That's probably not a lot really, and would hardly be worth it??
With regards to the Aerospace course I did, I must say I was rather disappointed in what the course had to offer. Maybe it was just my college? The college had some fantastic facilities but it seemed they never used to make the most of them!? Most of my knowledge on aircraft comes from researching myself, and even then it's limited. I think I would be being a bit harsh if I said the course didn't really teach me anything, I am not saying that by any means, and it did give me a good insight into Aircraft and the basic principles of how they work etc, but just not enough for my liking.
By the way, as a newbie I am absolutely loving these forums!
Matt
Thanks for the reply! I would love to do a PPL, and it wasnt that long ago I had some money saved up to gain some flying hours and work towards obtaining the license, however I came to a point in my life where myself and my partner had to make a massive decision, which was to either carry on living with her parents, or buy a house whilst the time was right.
We chose the house option, which I suppose was the right decision to make as its an investment.
I still have spare cash every so often, I could probably afford £100 a month on flying if I was careful. That's probably not a lot really, and would hardly be worth it??
With regards to the Aerospace course I did, I must say I was rather disappointed in what the course had to offer. Maybe it was just my college? The college had some fantastic facilities but it seemed they never used to make the most of them!? Most of my knowledge on aircraft comes from researching myself, and even then it's limited. I think I would be being a bit harsh if I said the course didn't really teach me anything, I am not saying that by any means, and it did give me a good insight into Aircraft and the basic principles of how they work etc, but just not enough for my liking.
By the way, as a newbie I am absolutely loving these forums!
Matt
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Colleges, as I said earlier, cannot offer the level of practical training which a mechanic needs - that has to come in the OJT and 2 year mechanic job you'd get at the end of the course (IF you can find a job).
£100/ month on flying would be pushing it. The flying school I'm at is $150/hr for a PA28.....
www.flyingspanner.wordpress.com
£100/ month on flying would be pushing it. The flying school I'm at is $150/hr for a PA28.....
www.flyingspanner.wordpress.com
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Tranwell, I have just read your entire blog, what brilliant reading!
Sounds like I need more money to really go about doing the PPL. Have you had 4 lessons in the past year? Or is it that you have only documented 4 lessons so far on your blog?
How long do you think it's going to take you to complete your PPL?
Matt
Sounds like I need more money to really go about doing the PPL. Have you had 4 lessons in the past year? Or is it that you have only documented 4 lessons so far on your blog?
How long do you think it's going to take you to complete your PPL?
Matt
I did my (first) PPL about the same time that I finished my first degree then bought my first house.
I scraped and struggled, and averaged about an hour a month for three years.
It was worth it! If you want to fly enough, which I did then and do now, it's possible.
There's also gliding clubs - which are usually cheaper, albeit more time consuming, or microlights - which was how I started, and I still fly them.
Try these chaps?, close to you I think and a good reputation - and just under £100/hr. Relatively speaking, a PA28 is certainly an expensive way of learning basic flying skills, a microlight is far more cost effective - and in my opinion a lot more fun.
G
I scraped and struggled, and averaged about an hour a month for three years.
It was worth it! If you want to fly enough, which I did then and do now, it's possible.
There's also gliding clubs - which are usually cheaper, albeit more time consuming, or microlights - which was how I started, and I still fly them.
Try these chaps?, close to you I think and a good reputation - and just under £100/hr. Relatively speaking, a PA28 is certainly an expensive way of learning basic flying skills, a microlight is far more cost effective - and in my opinion a lot more fun.
G
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Thats 4 hours in the first year. Financial and health issues prevented flying from autumn and winter, but I booked a lesson for next week. I need a medical and then I'm not from from solo... max six hours total time! This year (with a cash injection) I should manage at least one lesson a month. Roughly anothr 3 years and I'll have a PPL.
As Genghis says, the NPPL is WAY cheaper, but a mate of mine flies microlights and it gets quite cold up there. I'd rather have the opportunity to do some continental flying with the benefit of a heater. (Plus I want to buy a Stearman before I die....
)
As Genghis says, the NPPL is WAY cheaper, but a mate of mine flies microlights and it gets quite cold up there. I'd rather have the opportunity to do some continental flying with the benefit of a heater. (Plus I want to buy a Stearman before I die....
)
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Diversify to survive..or diversify to generate more revenue....amazing how many times I have heard the latter disguised as the former over the years and equally amazing how the organisations concerned never seem to have considered the option prior to doing so. Ho hum !
" The only merits are that, yes the ex-RAF chap will know how to wield a spanner and be damn good at wire locking having had the benefit of years of playing with military aircraft, however, the CAA does not recognise them "
The issue of recognition of past RAF experience is a long standing and thorny one at times for many. The reasons why seem equally confusing as well, but that is the current legislation however....whatever the perceived "rights and wrongs".
However, " the only merits " as you describe their ability and experience would seem to me to be pretty substantial merits would you not say, as indeed you do in fact, with regard to expertise on offer to a maintenance operation and thus as many RAF guys do all or part of their modules whilst still in, would you not say that even with the mandatory civilian experience criteria, they would stand a better chance of employment in contrast to some poor kid..irrespective of how enthusiastic / capable he / she may be?
Cert Ed / DTLL....bit like Windscale and Sellafield really...
" The only merits are that, yes the ex-RAF chap will know how to wield a spanner and be damn good at wire locking having had the benefit of years of playing with military aircraft, however, the CAA does not recognise them "
The issue of recognition of past RAF experience is a long standing and thorny one at times for many. The reasons why seem equally confusing as well, but that is the current legislation however....whatever the perceived "rights and wrongs".
However, " the only merits " as you describe their ability and experience would seem to me to be pretty substantial merits would you not say, as indeed you do in fact, with regard to expertise on offer to a maintenance operation and thus as many RAF guys do all or part of their modules whilst still in, would you not say that even with the mandatory civilian experience criteria, they would stand a better chance of employment in contrast to some poor kid..irrespective of how enthusiastic / capable he / she may be?
Cert Ed / DTLL....bit like Windscale and Sellafield really...