Can we attract kids into Aviation Engineering?
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Can we attract kids into Aviation Engineering?
Would appreciate your views on how commercial outfits assign apprenticehips. Sine the UK Home Office has cut back on expenditure in the military I assume that we will be short of young trainees? Am I correct in thinking this please?
I'd have thought that the biggest selling point right now is the huge increase in degree course fees that's about to happen.
Also however, I think that if the industry shows youngsters an objective, a career route, and that technician route engineering offers long term prospects at-least as good as doing a degree, AND makes entry to the profession reasonably selective, then there really will be no problem.
Back in "the day", entry to aeronautical engineering apprenticeships was far more difficult to achieve than onto most degree courses now; and the people who did the better apprenticeships (RAE, Westlands, BAe, Halton...) often went on to run the industry. A return to that semi-elite status would be the best thing we can do.
G
Also however, I think that if the industry shows youngsters an objective, a career route, and that technician route engineering offers long term prospects at-least as good as doing a degree, AND makes entry to the profession reasonably selective, then there really will be no problem.
Back in "the day", entry to aeronautical engineering apprenticeships was far more difficult to achieve than onto most degree courses now; and the people who did the better apprenticeships (RAE, Westlands, BAe, Halton...) often went on to run the industry. A return to that semi-elite status would be the best thing we can do.
G
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Back in the day...
I agree wholeheartedly. My careers teacher told me point blank that they would not have me in the RAF because one of my parents happened to be a product of a former enemy in WW2.
What a mess we made of our kids in the UK since WW2. The politicians kick education around as though it was a necessary drain on taxes. In my view not enough is done to inform the kids just how transferrable the skills are which they learn as a 16 or 18 yr old technician.
They are not taught how to defend themselves properly, how to construct an argument, or how to complain in a civilised documented way.
And of course the dog eat dog commercial environment has negated any hope of a consolidated engineering union.
What a mess we made of our kids in the UK since WW2. The politicians kick education around as though it was a necessary drain on taxes. In my view not enough is done to inform the kids just how transferrable the skills are which they learn as a 16 or 18 yr old technician.
They are not taught how to defend themselves properly, how to construct an argument, or how to complain in a civilised documented way.
And of course the dog eat dog commercial environment has negated any hope of a consolidated engineering union.
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My careers adviser at high school back 12 years or so ago told me doing an apprenticeship was for the lower achievers and I should go on to further education. I was a standard student, GCSE A-C, so I ignored her and did an apprenticeship at BAe. There were over 300 people trying to get an apprenticeship that year at this one BAe site alone. Now 12 years on I am so glad I ignored her.
Personally I think the school leavers for the next few years need better guidance. Im of the belief that if you have a trade you can go anywhere and do anything
Personally I think the school leavers for the next few years need better guidance. Im of the belief that if you have a trade you can go anywhere and do anything
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" told me doing an apprenticeship was for the lower achievers and I should go on to further education."
Clearly, madam never had the pleasure of going through Halton then...so to speak.
Engineering has been a dirty word for the teaching profession for a long time now, irrespective of the discipline and it makes you wonder how many more there are like her out there and how many others have been dissuaded from engineering as a result of such inane "advice"....ironic really coming from a member of an occupation which is seemingly reliant on technology to educate, or rather process, pupils under the guise of "education".
Clearly, madam never had the pleasure of going through Halton then...so to speak.
Engineering has been a dirty word for the teaching profession for a long time now, irrespective of the discipline and it makes you wonder how many more there are like her out there and how many others have been dissuaded from engineering as a result of such inane "advice"....ironic really coming from a member of an occupation which is seemingly reliant on technology to educate, or rather process, pupils under the guise of "education".
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When I told the careers advisor and my headmaster i was applying for an aeronautical apprenticeship his response was 'who do you think you are boy'.
They were amazed when i joined BOAC.
To the main point though, the low esteem with which engineering is held in this country is a problem. Even within the industry many companies do not value their engineers and technicians. Also the current pay and conditions offered to new entrants are no great shakes.
I would like to see intelligent, keen youngsters wanting to join us as their first choice because they see an interesting and rewarding career on offer.
I don't want to see them taking 'whatevers going' just to have a job. This is an industry that needs the former and not the latter.
End of sermon.
They were amazed when i joined BOAC.
To the main point though, the low esteem with which engineering is held in this country is a problem. Even within the industry many companies do not value their engineers and technicians. Also the current pay and conditions offered to new entrants are no great shakes.
I would like to see intelligent, keen youngsters wanting to join us as their first choice because they see an interesting and rewarding career on offer.
I don't want to see them taking 'whatevers going' just to have a job. This is an industry that needs the former and not the latter.
End of sermon.
It's broader, to be honest, than just engineering.
Schools are, inevitably, populated by staff who have degrees - and thus think that the only worthwhile jobs are those that go to people with degrees. Even from my position of having two of the things, I can clearly see that's b****x, but who are kids to believe if not their teachers?
Any profession that was traditionally entered by some form of apprenticeship, therefore gets regarded by the teachers as second rate. And so over the last 30 odd years, companies have increasingly been seeing only the drop-outs applying for apprenticeships: given that, it's hardly surprising is it that apprenticeships have become more and more scarce.
So we have young Engineers who should be doing apprenticeships, studying for degrees that they can't handle, young cooks who should be apprenticed in a good kitchen going to catering college instead, student nurses doing nursing degrees instead of learning on the wards from experienced nurses.
So, to an extent, we've now come full circle. Many companies have created "graduate training schemes", which are essentially apprenticeships - for graduates! Whilst I'm sure that we'd all agree that anybody getting on in this, or many other industries, needs both education and training - doing a degree (with the massive debt that goes with it now) simply to be allowed to start doing genuine practical training is frankly barking. Once upon a time there were night schools and day-release colleges, with the few who could really use the further education progressing from their apprenticeships to degrees and senior posts.
G
Schools are, inevitably, populated by staff who have degrees - and thus think that the only worthwhile jobs are those that go to people with degrees. Even from my position of having two of the things, I can clearly see that's b****x, but who are kids to believe if not their teachers?
Any profession that was traditionally entered by some form of apprenticeship, therefore gets regarded by the teachers as second rate. And so over the last 30 odd years, companies have increasingly been seeing only the drop-outs applying for apprenticeships: given that, it's hardly surprising is it that apprenticeships have become more and more scarce.
So we have young Engineers who should be doing apprenticeships, studying for degrees that they can't handle, young cooks who should be apprenticed in a good kitchen going to catering college instead, student nurses doing nursing degrees instead of learning on the wards from experienced nurses.
So, to an extent, we've now come full circle. Many companies have created "graduate training schemes", which are essentially apprenticeships - for graduates! Whilst I'm sure that we'd all agree that anybody getting on in this, or many other industries, needs both education and training - doing a degree (with the massive debt that goes with it now) simply to be allowed to start doing genuine practical training is frankly barking. Once upon a time there were night schools and day-release colleges, with the few who could really use the further education progressing from their apprenticeships to degrees and senior posts.
G
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Wow, this post is right up my alley folks. I'm working for a training firm in Cambuslang, Glasgow, and have for the past 8 weeks been instructing some school leavers(16 to 18yo) in basic aircraft engineering and their operation. It's been organised through the Careers offices in Glasgow in conjunction with Skills Development Scotland and ourselves, that is, Pentland Assessment Centres.
Having got these young lads up to scratch I hope, the next stage is to get them placements with maintenance organisations in and around the Glasgow area for the remainder of their course and with a bit of luck and guidance, perhaps an apprenticeship. If there are any takers I would be more than happy to receive your pm's. I've got 8 in my class at the moment but am contracted to take another 4 when some go on placement.
Ghengis: I had that problem with a slow uptake on the course at first with the careers service believing that the maths was at a higher level. Not their fault entirely because it emanated from my own office. Once I sorted this out I had 'em flocking to join. I was supposed to take 6 with another 6 further down the line but I didn't have the heart to knock anyone back.
Having got these young lads up to scratch I hope, the next stage is to get them placements with maintenance organisations in and around the Glasgow area for the remainder of their course and with a bit of luck and guidance, perhaps an apprenticeship. If there are any takers I would be more than happy to receive your pm's. I've got 8 in my class at the moment but am contracted to take another 4 when some go on placement.
Ghengis: I had that problem with a slow uptake on the course at first with the careers service believing that the maths was at a higher level. Not their fault entirely because it emanated from my own office. Once I sorted this out I had 'em flocking to join. I was supposed to take 6 with another 6 further down the line but I didn't have the heart to knock anyone back.
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Maybe tell the kids that there is is a good chance that they will end up on higher pay than a lot of pilots.In Australia atm,an unlicenced AME can earn $80K working on A380's, whilst a First Officer at a low cost carrier is on about the same wage.
The main difference here is that the pilot will spend anywhere in the region of $100K over 2 or 3 years training themselves to get into the cockpit of an A320/B737, whereas the engineer will be paid something similar over a few years to train as an apprentice.Straight off the bat the engineer is finacially better off.
Just have a look at some of the other forums here and you will see what low wages are now being paid to pilots.In the Hong Kong Forum, there is a topic on how Air HK are paying B744 F/O's USD$69K.The thing about engineering is that people are not crawling all over each other to be engineers like they do to be pilots.
In the long run, there is probably better job security for engineers,as aircraft can't fix themselves yet,but aircraft can fly themselves.
I am sure Europe is different,but I would still bet that if you can get an apprenticeship, then you can still enjoy better job security and pay over the longer term of you career.
The main difference here is that the pilot will spend anywhere in the region of $100K over 2 or 3 years training themselves to get into the cockpit of an A320/B737, whereas the engineer will be paid something similar over a few years to train as an apprentice.Straight off the bat the engineer is finacially better off.
Just have a look at some of the other forums here and you will see what low wages are now being paid to pilots.In the Hong Kong Forum, there is a topic on how Air HK are paying B744 F/O's USD$69K.The thing about engineering is that people are not crawling all over each other to be engineers like they do to be pilots.
In the long run, there is probably better job security for engineers,as aircraft can't fix themselves yet,but aircraft can fly themselves.
I am sure Europe is different,but I would still bet that if you can get an apprenticeship, then you can still enjoy better job security and pay over the longer term of you career.
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I couldn't agree more with the views here. But sadly we are up against the media machines 'training' our young people to be rich and famous. Not denying that every generation of 'awkward teens' goes through this "how do I look?" phase. It's just that today the media machine is so relentless, that kids don't often get a chance to think any other way. So for aviation you have today's role models like Leonardo DiCaprio in Catch me if You Can and John Travolta with his 707 in Haiti.
A comparison equally could be Formula 1, a very tempting thing for car-crazy, technically minded youngsters - but they want to be the driver, earning millions of dollars etc. Yet as most people here know even the Formula 1 technicians are usually as skilled as LAME's, and well paid, yet they are never really in the spotlight, just like our own industry.
If there is a 'magic bullet' that will encourage youngsters, it's a hard one to find. The experiences offered by companies like Sandy's would be invaluable, and the good old airlines recruitment officers getting of their big behinds and giving kids the same experience opportunities, work-experience, selling the engineering career.
One smaller company I have worked for previously, was very passionate about employing young kids locally and is still always oversubscribed for places. We need more companies to be like this, not just the careers officers.
More power to your elbow Sandy!
A comparison equally could be Formula 1, a very tempting thing for car-crazy, technically minded youngsters - but they want to be the driver, earning millions of dollars etc. Yet as most people here know even the Formula 1 technicians are usually as skilled as LAME's, and well paid, yet they are never really in the spotlight, just like our own industry.
If there is a 'magic bullet' that will encourage youngsters, it's a hard one to find. The experiences offered by companies like Sandy's would be invaluable, and the good old airlines recruitment officers getting of their big behinds and giving kids the same experience opportunities, work-experience, selling the engineering career.
One smaller company I have worked for previously, was very passionate about employing young kids locally and is still always oversubscribed for places. We need more companies to be like this, not just the careers officers.
More power to your elbow Sandy!
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Thank you very much for your kind words Vibes. I've had to call on my own experiences over the years to give these lads a taster of what to expect on their placements. There wasn't a set curriculum at the start, so I've had to make it up as I went along and since this is the first time I've been involved with the chalk and talk, it's been a relearning experience for me too.
I have to say that I left aviation maintenance 9 years ago although I did go to work for the LAA at Turweston for a little while in between. However, if I've fallen into a niche where I can do some good then perhaps I should give it some consideration and stick around, especially if I'm to get Ppruners encouraging me like this.
As for F1 mechanics, well I know one who is aircraft trained, last heard of with the Renault team.
I have to say that I left aviation maintenance 9 years ago although I did go to work for the LAA at Turweston for a little while in between. However, if I've fallen into a niche where I can do some good then perhaps I should give it some consideration and stick around, especially if I'm to get Ppruners encouraging me like this.
As for F1 mechanics, well I know one who is aircraft trained, last heard of with the Renault team.
I used to chair the Royal Aeronautical Society branch somewhere close to a lot of F1 teams. We had a lot of aeronautical engineers turn up to meetings, who were working full time in F1.
There's an interesting point here about perceptions and role models. When I was a boy, there were role models of sorts - Heinz Wolff in the Great Egg Race (who was directly responsible for me becoming an engineer after he came and gave a talk at my school and I then went to talk to him). Werner von Braun was towards the end of his career, but we all knew about what he'd done. There was a consciousness of the "Boffins" who had developed and built all the magnificent machines that won WW2 in our parents generations. Many movies had had engineers as prominent roles for many years (James Stewart in No Highway, numerous Quatermas movies, portrayals of RJ Mitchell and Barnes Wallis in First of the Few and The Dam Busters). We even had a credible 'Q' in the James Bond movies before we got the current comedy act by Basil Fawlty. Nevil Shute's novels, a large number of which featured engineers as heroes, were mainstream.
Where are those role models now? Circa 1999 I worked for Scrapheap Challenge for an episode, and that worked well - but watch it now and it's moved increasingly away from engineering and towards popular entertainment, do any of us know who the prominent Engineers were in creating Typhoon?, A380? - the only major engineer I can think of in the public eye is James Dyson: but when do you hear him asking about engineering?
A lot of this does seem, I think, to be down to the media. I "play" with the media a bit, mostly the BBC and for example did a few appearances to explain what had happened after the Quantus A380 engine failure. On this occasion just about everything they wanted to ask me questions about was all about the economics: Rolls Royce's share prices and the like. Is it really that uninteresting to discuss how a jet engine works and can fail? (That said, briefings I put together on some previous interesting prangs, and especially on volcanic ash did get widely used.)
Print media is the same - apart from a few "geeky" gadget features, the newspapers don't talk about "miracles of engineering" in the way that I seem to remember from my youth (Eagle?, Insight?...) Mainstream novels often have medics and scientists, but not engineers.
So, the problem is, I think, a world (and in particular the media) that despite relying upon engineering utterly, seems to have come to find it really uninteresting.
If we as a profession are going to do something about this, we each of us need to do something active. Sandy clearly is, and well done. Now, here's a challenge to all of us?
- Next time there's an engineering related story in the media that you have the professional knowledge - can you do anything to help explain it? Short piece for the local paper?, phone your local radio station and offer to be interviewed?
- Got kids? Live near a school? Have you ever offered to go and give a talk about careers in engineering?
- Anything else YOU can do to tell the world that engineering is not just important, but damned good fun and a great career.
G
There's an interesting point here about perceptions and role models. When I was a boy, there were role models of sorts - Heinz Wolff in the Great Egg Race (who was directly responsible for me becoming an engineer after he came and gave a talk at my school and I then went to talk to him). Werner von Braun was towards the end of his career, but we all knew about what he'd done. There was a consciousness of the "Boffins" who had developed and built all the magnificent machines that won WW2 in our parents generations. Many movies had had engineers as prominent roles for many years (James Stewart in No Highway, numerous Quatermas movies, portrayals of RJ Mitchell and Barnes Wallis in First of the Few and The Dam Busters). We even had a credible 'Q' in the James Bond movies before we got the current comedy act by Basil Fawlty. Nevil Shute's novels, a large number of which featured engineers as heroes, were mainstream.
Where are those role models now? Circa 1999 I worked for Scrapheap Challenge for an episode, and that worked well - but watch it now and it's moved increasingly away from engineering and towards popular entertainment, do any of us know who the prominent Engineers were in creating Typhoon?, A380? - the only major engineer I can think of in the public eye is James Dyson: but when do you hear him asking about engineering?
A lot of this does seem, I think, to be down to the media. I "play" with the media a bit, mostly the BBC and for example did a few appearances to explain what had happened after the Quantus A380 engine failure. On this occasion just about everything they wanted to ask me questions about was all about the economics: Rolls Royce's share prices and the like. Is it really that uninteresting to discuss how a jet engine works and can fail? (That said, briefings I put together on some previous interesting prangs, and especially on volcanic ash did get widely used.)
Print media is the same - apart from a few "geeky" gadget features, the newspapers don't talk about "miracles of engineering" in the way that I seem to remember from my youth (Eagle?, Insight?...) Mainstream novels often have medics and scientists, but not engineers.
So, the problem is, I think, a world (and in particular the media) that despite relying upon engineering utterly, seems to have come to find it really uninteresting.
If we as a profession are going to do something about this, we each of us need to do something active. Sandy clearly is, and well done. Now, here's a challenge to all of us?
- Next time there's an engineering related story in the media that you have the professional knowledge - can you do anything to help explain it? Short piece for the local paper?, phone your local radio station and offer to be interviewed?
- Got kids? Live near a school? Have you ever offered to go and give a talk about careers in engineering?
- Anything else YOU can do to tell the world that engineering is not just important, but damned good fun and a great career.
G
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Excellent thread. As to attracting youngsters, this is one of the main ideas behind Richard Nobles latest project 'Bloodhound'. Aiming to get a car to above 1000mph. Lot of involvement with industry including RR.
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Attracting kids is not the issue we (as the college/part 147 educators) face.
My employer runs a 2 year Extended diploma in Aircraft engineering, and for the last 6 years, we have been over-subscribed. We have 100 places, and have had to increase the entry requirments and include entry tests to allow us to find 100 potential engineers from the 200 - 300 who regularly apply. We have a very small catchment area too... Our sole purpose in life is to select the best students to progress onto a part 147 licence course (there are 56 places and the course is open internationaly).
This is all well and good, BUT of the 100 starters at college level, reduced to an average of 30 college students in the pt147 school, perhaps only 10 will progress to a full licence. (Yet we are still slandered by the nay-sayers on here for filling the industry with un-trained mechanics.) We have a responsibility to the industry to provide a small number of educated mechanics with the potential for development into technicians.
Funding issues are only apparent for the college side, since the 147 course is self-funded and subsidised by tacking them onto a Foundation degree (HND) course.
Government funding for Level 1-3 BTEC, City & Guilds an NVQs are being cut this year which will make the course unviable at its current size. Here's the rub:
We are looking at short courses designed to assist both new entrants and current mechanics to develop their skills and make themselves more employable. We know the industry is tough at the minute, and there are no apprenticeships to be had, so can we adapt our courses to match industry requirements (ie. skilled mechanics) and the financial needs of any educational company(ie. profitable an self-sustaining)? Industry talks to us on a management level, but we need input from the guys on the shop floor - what do you expect from future new mechanics?
The future of education in this industry is for the potential mechanic to SELF-FUND their careers. BTECS and the like are dying, and the only way to get a job is to already have the pt66 licence modules. The new blood is already waiting to be allowed in.... it is up to industry to guide them through the door by helping the few training providers.
Some of the issues regarding engineering are down to the size of the uk engineering industry in general - its tiny compared to the first half of the last century! I live in an area where engineering used to be the ONLY route for young boys, and even now, most local families have reletives who were steel-workers and ship builders. The recent development in this region is one of renewable energies and a former shipyard is being prepared for use as a wind-turbine manufacturing facility. A car factory accounts for 75% of all engineering jobs in the region at the moment!
There is almost no uk aerospace industry left - a handful of component factories, an engine manufacturer and simply THE best LAMEs in the world - but so few of them... Its not down to standards of education; its down to global economics.
My employer runs a 2 year Extended diploma in Aircraft engineering, and for the last 6 years, we have been over-subscribed. We have 100 places, and have had to increase the entry requirments and include entry tests to allow us to find 100 potential engineers from the 200 - 300 who regularly apply. We have a very small catchment area too... Our sole purpose in life is to select the best students to progress onto a part 147 licence course (there are 56 places and the course is open internationaly).
This is all well and good, BUT of the 100 starters at college level, reduced to an average of 30 college students in the pt147 school, perhaps only 10 will progress to a full licence. (Yet we are still slandered by the nay-sayers on here for filling the industry with un-trained mechanics.) We have a responsibility to the industry to provide a small number of educated mechanics with the potential for development into technicians.
Funding issues are only apparent for the college side, since the 147 course is self-funded and subsidised by tacking them onto a Foundation degree (HND) course.
Government funding for Level 1-3 BTEC, City & Guilds an NVQs are being cut this year which will make the course unviable at its current size. Here's the rub:
We are looking at short courses designed to assist both new entrants and current mechanics to develop their skills and make themselves more employable. We know the industry is tough at the minute, and there are no apprenticeships to be had, so can we adapt our courses to match industry requirements (ie. skilled mechanics) and the financial needs of any educational company(ie. profitable an self-sustaining)? Industry talks to us on a management level, but we need input from the guys on the shop floor - what do you expect from future new mechanics?
The future of education in this industry is for the potential mechanic to SELF-FUND their careers. BTECS and the like are dying, and the only way to get a job is to already have the pt66 licence modules. The new blood is already waiting to be allowed in.... it is up to industry to guide them through the door by helping the few training providers.
Some of the issues regarding engineering are down to the size of the uk engineering industry in general - its tiny compared to the first half of the last century! I live in an area where engineering used to be the ONLY route for young boys, and even now, most local families have reletives who were steel-workers and ship builders. The recent development in this region is one of renewable energies and a former shipyard is being prepared for use as a wind-turbine manufacturing facility. A car factory accounts for 75% of all engineering jobs in the region at the moment!
There is almost no uk aerospace industry left - a handful of component factories, an engine manufacturer and simply THE best LAMEs in the world - but so few of them... Its not down to standards of education; its down to global economics.
Last edited by Tranwell; 9th Jan 2011 at 16:30.
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" The future of education in this industry is for the potential mechanic to SELF-FUND their careers "
Of course it is....
and, quelle surprise, you have a vested interest in promoting this concept...why not take it a stage further then....lets see, lets call it....pay to maintain....after all, there's a tried and tested model for pilots is there not ?....
I assume you are not an engineer therefore.....marketing or accountant..which I wonder?...I bet you voted for Cameron and his party's ideology as well.
Of course it is....
and, quelle surprise, you have a vested interest in promoting this concept...why not take it a stage further then....lets see, lets call it....pay to maintain....after all, there's a tried and tested model for pilots is there not ?....I assume you are not an engineer therefore.....marketing or accountant..which I wonder?...I bet you voted for Cameron and his party's ideology as well.
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10 years RAF Rigger and cross-trained to engines..
followed by EASA pt 66 B1.1 licence modules
followed by 2 years contracting with BA, Lufthansa, Air Atlantique
followed by 4 years teaching both Part 66 and BTEC & NVQ courses...
so I guess you're slightly incorrect...
oh, and Cameron is a w****r
I love those little 'sarcastic / roll-eyes' smilies, BUT let me ask you a question....
Who should pay to educate the little baby engineers?
1. The government - tried it and failed (see current climate)
2. The industry - tried it nd failed (see apprenticeship schemes, cost of)
3. The mechanic - worth a shot... you want it, you get it. (see my wages, also massive reduction from MECHANICS wage to teachers wage)
followed by EASA pt 66 B1.1 licence modules
followed by 2 years contracting with BA, Lufthansa, Air Atlantique
followed by 4 years teaching both Part 66 and BTEC & NVQ courses...
so I guess you're slightly incorrect...
oh, and Cameron is a w****r
I love those little 'sarcastic / roll-eyes' smilies, BUT let me ask you a question....
Who should pay to educate the little baby engineers?
1. The government - tried it and failed (see current climate)
2. The industry - tried it nd failed (see apprenticeship schemes, cost of)
3. The mechanic - worth a shot... you want it, you get it. (see my wages, also massive reduction from MECHANICS wage to teachers wage)
Last edited by Tranwell; 9th Jan 2011 at 17:36.
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Who taught the teacher how to teach? Not a sarcastic question, did you ever teach in the RAF? Why didn't you get the ticket (or did you and couldn't get to use it)? 10 years in the mob is a bit short to get a tour of Cosford instructing in?
Personally, apprenticeships.. My company does them!
Get to know how to do the job and then bolt on the theory of why. I think it sticks in better.
Bet you slagged off DE's in the RAF. 147 college guys are broadly similar IMHO.
Personally, apprenticeships.. My company does them!
Get to know how to do the job and then bolt on the theory of why. I think it sticks in better.
Bet you slagged off DE's in the RAF. 147 college guys are broadly similar IMHO.
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The RAF used to provide a level 3 BTEC in Aeronautical Engineering for their mechanics, with fittes getting a C&G level 3 and the modules for something else.. (I forget what, but it involved the use of a log book and no-one else did it.... ). Left the mob simply because I hated it at the time and there was no progression. tried to get into the airline industry after a short break and realised that the RAF quals were useless - the only thing which mattered was the part 66, so I put my life on hold and did a 2 year full time B1 course at an academy where I now teach!
I failed to get the licence for one reason.... the teaching job came up at a time when the industry was shrinking dramatically and I wanted to stay in the North East for family reasons. Perhaps if and when EASA bring in the 10 year exam rule (with grandfather rights) I will have enough time to get enough experience to get the B1 - since neither teaching part 66 or any RAF experience counts....
Apprenticeships - we estimated 4 companies in the country do them - BA, KLM, Monarch, and another (goldfish memory). They're great, BUT all down south - nothing for the northern half of the country.
.... and you're dead right aout DEs... its only with hindsight that you realise you spend your life trying to emulate them... :P
I failed to get the licence for one reason.... the teaching job came up at a time when the industry was shrinking dramatically and I wanted to stay in the North East for family reasons. Perhaps if and when EASA bring in the 10 year exam rule (with grandfather rights) I will have enough time to get enough experience to get the B1 - since neither teaching part 66 or any RAF experience counts....
Apprenticeships - we estimated 4 companies in the country do them - BA, KLM, Monarch, and another (goldfish memory). They're great, BUT all down south - nothing for the northern half of the country.
.... and you're dead right aout DEs... its only with hindsight that you realise you spend your life trying to emulate them... :P
Last edited by Tranwell; 9th Jan 2011 at 18:12.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Away from home Rat
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Yeah, Newcastle doesn't supply many jobs. I can't get in at my local MRO either! Fortunately I got in to one that is just about workable, although it does have its drawbacks. Promotion chances are zero though. 6 people ahead of me in the queue if any posts come up. Got to be in it to win it though!
147 college boys need better hand skills and the knowledge that the 147 syllubus doesn't specify. Like the other ways of how to remove a buggered screw for starters.
Oh, I was a DE.. Time served now though.
147 college boys need better hand skills and the knowledge that the 147 syllubus doesn't specify. Like the other ways of how to remove a buggered screw for starters.
Oh, I was a DE.. Time served now though.