Aviation mechanic shortage
GladRag,
"I believe the subjects are not being covered in enough depth."
You obviously havent realised the true meaning of EASA Regulations yet...
EASA regulations are the remnants of what is left when up to 27 different countries get together and pull their in own directions without coordinated regard for safety or educational necessities.
What remains, to be made into 'regulations', is the lowest standard that all countries will accept - not the highest, nor even the minimum of most peoples thoughts.
"I believe the subjects are not being covered in enough depth."
You obviously havent realised the true meaning of EASA Regulations yet...
EASA regulations are the remnants of what is left when up to 27 different countries get together and pull their in own directions without coordinated regard for safety or educational necessities.
What remains, to be made into 'regulations', is the lowest standard that all countries will accept - not the highest, nor even the minimum of most peoples thoughts.
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Miles Gustaph...
'I'm sorry that your children and mortgage have stifled your ability to get a B license, most of us who left the military did our exams before we left so we could look after out families and mortgages.' - I was medically discharged, didn't plan to leave for another 8 years and therefore sitting the exams would have been pointless as they would have lapsed by the time I left! Next!!
As for the industries attitude of paying fitters poor money, while I appreciate that there are some truly exceptional fitters out there, the industry doesn't have a problem recruiting fitters in general; it needs licensed engineers who can certify there own and the work of the people that work for them, which is reflected in the current situation where license pay is at last starting to go up! - I can't pay my mortgage and support my family on the fitters wage I would have to earn for at least a year to satisfy the experience requirement. I blew my entire medical gratuity subsidising the piss poor wage I was paid in Sheffield while achieving nothing towards my experience as I was stuck in an office job, due to my PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE I was given the job of sorting out the companies technical records department which was going to cause the company's closure by the CAA if I hadn't!
Any fitter who doesn't sit his exams is seriously missing out on the current pay rises, and those that we all know are to come, however it is an individuals choice to not too, but they should hardly complain of being badly done too when a bit of studying and a few exams can get you up to a 100% pay rise. - Since I wasn't given the chance before I left, I could only do it via Licence by post, the materials are pitiful, with entire subjects left uncovered by the course materials! Since I have so far managed to gain no experience that is acceptable to EASA, there isn't much point in just sitting the exams is there?
Masterofnone, it sounds to me that your just another bitter ex forces chap who couldn't be bothered to do his exams and expects the commercial sector to top up your pension. - If you have bothered to read the above, you should now realise this isn't the case!!
There are many ex-forces chaps industry who have come out of the military, have done there licenses and are doing well, in fact I would stick my neck out and say that the industry still to a certin extent relays on ex-forces people making the effort to get licenced... - I agree! I just can't afford the pay drop to satisfy the experience requirement!! I left the company I worked for in Sheffield, they went out of business a year later and the other ex-forces guys there who were desperate to get a licence are now living away from home AGAIN working in Norwich for a pittance just to get the experience of maintaining low tech machines when they already have experience on machines far more advanced!!
Good luck to you with your contracting, i'm sure the job security in the current economic climate is a comfort, enough to stop you from bothering to put your attitude where your mouth is and sit your trade exams. - I don't believe I have a bad attitude, I don't think the world owes me a living that's for sure!! I DO know licenced engineers who I wouldn't want working FOR me, never mind me working for them though!! I know contracting isn't a long term solution, as i'll be on the same sort of wages forever doing it with no career progression, but what are the other options? The exams aren't a problem, I could pass them with my eyes closed, it's the experience requirement that is the obstacle!
'I'm sorry that your children and mortgage have stifled your ability to get a B license, most of us who left the military did our exams before we left so we could look after out families and mortgages.' - I was medically discharged, didn't plan to leave for another 8 years and therefore sitting the exams would have been pointless as they would have lapsed by the time I left! Next!!
As for the industries attitude of paying fitters poor money, while I appreciate that there are some truly exceptional fitters out there, the industry doesn't have a problem recruiting fitters in general; it needs licensed engineers who can certify there own and the work of the people that work for them, which is reflected in the current situation where license pay is at last starting to go up! - I can't pay my mortgage and support my family on the fitters wage I would have to earn for at least a year to satisfy the experience requirement. I blew my entire medical gratuity subsidising the piss poor wage I was paid in Sheffield while achieving nothing towards my experience as I was stuck in an office job, due to my PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE I was given the job of sorting out the companies technical records department which was going to cause the company's closure by the CAA if I hadn't!
Any fitter who doesn't sit his exams is seriously missing out on the current pay rises, and those that we all know are to come, however it is an individuals choice to not too, but they should hardly complain of being badly done too when a bit of studying and a few exams can get you up to a 100% pay rise. - Since I wasn't given the chance before I left, I could only do it via Licence by post, the materials are pitiful, with entire subjects left uncovered by the course materials! Since I have so far managed to gain no experience that is acceptable to EASA, there isn't much point in just sitting the exams is there?
Masterofnone, it sounds to me that your just another bitter ex forces chap who couldn't be bothered to do his exams and expects the commercial sector to top up your pension. - If you have bothered to read the above, you should now realise this isn't the case!!
There are many ex-forces chaps industry who have come out of the military, have done there licenses and are doing well, in fact I would stick my neck out and say that the industry still to a certin extent relays on ex-forces people making the effort to get licenced... - I agree! I just can't afford the pay drop to satisfy the experience requirement!! I left the company I worked for in Sheffield, they went out of business a year later and the other ex-forces guys there who were desperate to get a licence are now living away from home AGAIN working in Norwich for a pittance just to get the experience of maintaining low tech machines when they already have experience on machines far more advanced!!
Good luck to you with your contracting, i'm sure the job security in the current economic climate is a comfort, enough to stop you from bothering to put your attitude where your mouth is and sit your trade exams. - I don't believe I have a bad attitude, I don't think the world owes me a living that's for sure!! I DO know licenced engineers who I wouldn't want working FOR me, never mind me working for them though!! I know contracting isn't a long term solution, as i'll be on the same sort of wages forever doing it with no career progression, but what are the other options? The exams aren't a problem, I could pass them with my eyes closed, it's the experience requirement that is the obstacle!
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The worlds certainly conspiring against you in your endevours to become a licensed engineer isnt it? my heart bleeds and yes id agree with previous posters your attidude stinks, typical im afraid of a fair few ex forces types who in my experiance often do believe the world owes them a living.
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Masterofnone:
Sorry I didn’t realise from your last posts that it was someone else’s fault!
I’m sorry you were medically discharged, obviously when you were medically downgraded they chucked you out the following day meaning that you couldn’t take the opportunity to prepare for the civilian sector by studying for your license… it’s such a disgrace that the military didn’t medically downgrade you, give you a periodic review, maybe a second… obviously they did this is 24hours and not the usual months long process that a responsible person would have used to prepare for the civil sector gee the papers are right the military just don’t look after there men any more… and of course the monthly tax free pension just isn’t any compensation at all…. It’s their entire fault!
…and I mean being forced to take a job that makes you spend your gratuity to live off, it’s terrible, forcing you into a job that won’t allow you to live above your means, that’s not just on for a chap with 12-14 years of aviation military experience…
…and the company that you saved from closure, of course you claimed the aviation technical documentation work in your logbook to get you towards your license didn’t you… you did right? …and you made the effort to get out of the office to get some experience on the aircraft for your logbook didn’t you? You didn’t just waist your experience did you? Or did no one do it for you… because that would be awful! It’s like a guy I use to work with, he couldn’t get the experience he needed in the military so on his leave and on some weekends he had to come to work and get the experience while still doing another job… I wouldn’t expect you to have to make such sacrifices for you family, you shouldn’t have too!
…and License by post’s pitiful notes… well that’s terrible, I mean LBP must be going down the pan, what a shame, the notes they dished out, and the tutor support when I did my license were pretty good… good enough to get me my license first hit!
…but why did you need the notes, as you say you could “pass them with your eyes closed”…weren’t you a supper tech or something in the military, working on super dupper hi-tech helicopters rather than the low-tech machines we in the commercial sector work on? I mean we often sit around the crew room talking about how the industry should reduce our salaries and re-invest it in new hi-tech machines for us to work on, and how nice it would be to help Agusta work out the introduction into service problems of the hi-tech AW139… O and we laugh and joke like such happy people talking about the hi-tech Apache helicopter that the Army use that costs much the same as a Eurofighter to operate as were just jealous of tax payers money paying military people to work on hi-tech machines, and O it would be nice to get to work on those really really high tech Chinooks that are so high tech that they can’t fly, you know the ones tax payers pay to be stored… all of that rather than the low-tech rubbish we have…you know the machines you want a career working on?
You know your right, you’ve been treated really badly by the commercial sector, you know if I were you I would just not bother… then well be sorry that we’ve lost your skill sets… that’ll show us!
O and don’t forget to write this up on Air mech with a different spin, as you did before, so they also think your badly done too…
Sorry I didn’t realise from your last posts that it was someone else’s fault!
I’m sorry you were medically discharged, obviously when you were medically downgraded they chucked you out the following day meaning that you couldn’t take the opportunity to prepare for the civilian sector by studying for your license… it’s such a disgrace that the military didn’t medically downgrade you, give you a periodic review, maybe a second… obviously they did this is 24hours and not the usual months long process that a responsible person would have used to prepare for the civil sector gee the papers are right the military just don’t look after there men any more… and of course the monthly tax free pension just isn’t any compensation at all…. It’s their entire fault!
…and I mean being forced to take a job that makes you spend your gratuity to live off, it’s terrible, forcing you into a job that won’t allow you to live above your means, that’s not just on for a chap with 12-14 years of aviation military experience…
…and the company that you saved from closure, of course you claimed the aviation technical documentation work in your logbook to get you towards your license didn’t you… you did right? …and you made the effort to get out of the office to get some experience on the aircraft for your logbook didn’t you? You didn’t just waist your experience did you? Or did no one do it for you… because that would be awful! It’s like a guy I use to work with, he couldn’t get the experience he needed in the military so on his leave and on some weekends he had to come to work and get the experience while still doing another job… I wouldn’t expect you to have to make such sacrifices for you family, you shouldn’t have too!
…and License by post’s pitiful notes… well that’s terrible, I mean LBP must be going down the pan, what a shame, the notes they dished out, and the tutor support when I did my license were pretty good… good enough to get me my license first hit!
…but why did you need the notes, as you say you could “pass them with your eyes closed”…weren’t you a supper tech or something in the military, working on super dupper hi-tech helicopters rather than the low-tech machines we in the commercial sector work on? I mean we often sit around the crew room talking about how the industry should reduce our salaries and re-invest it in new hi-tech machines for us to work on, and how nice it would be to help Agusta work out the introduction into service problems of the hi-tech AW139… O and we laugh and joke like such happy people talking about the hi-tech Apache helicopter that the Army use that costs much the same as a Eurofighter to operate as were just jealous of tax payers money paying military people to work on hi-tech machines, and O it would be nice to get to work on those really really high tech Chinooks that are so high tech that they can’t fly, you know the ones tax payers pay to be stored… all of that rather than the low-tech rubbish we have…you know the machines you want a career working on?
You know your right, you’ve been treated really badly by the commercial sector, you know if I were you I would just not bother… then well be sorry that we’ve lost your skill sets… that’ll show us!
O and don’t forget to write this up on Air mech with a different spin, as you did before, so they also think your badly done too…
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I'm afraid you asked for it Masterofnone.....
Many of us left the forces and had to put in alot of time, money and effort to get established in the civil sector. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made, hopefully only short-term, to get what you want....have cake and eat it springs to mind when reading your posts.
Many of us left the forces and had to put in alot of time, money and effort to get established in the civil sector. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made, hopefully only short-term, to get what you want....have cake and eat it springs to mind when reading your posts.
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This has suddenly become a personal attack on me has it?
My initial point, that was shot down in flames, was that this is a reason why there aren't so many people coming into the industry from the forces. I just used some of my experiences as examples.
In response to your attacks, I found out three months before I left that I was being discharged...I was told I was being retained (against my wishes, strangely, as I already had the job in Sheffield). I did not have months and months. Any pension I received was paid into by me as the forces pension is deducted from pay before they ever see it, so I had earned it!!
I never claimed I saved the company, they needed to employ someone and I came along...i'm not saying someone else couldn't do the same thing, only that it was me that ended up doing it instead of working on the aircraft!! It's got to be said that the Eurocopter job I went for interview for would have been ideal had I been single, but I just couldn't make the numbers add up with a family to support. I don't know what sort of 'living above my means' you think I am up to but I live in an ex-council semi in Sheffield, i'm hardly living it up in Monte Carlo!!
As for LBP....having not taken the exams so to not waste my money until i'm gaining experience, i'm going off what the other fitters I worked with at Sheffield told me, that entire subject matters were missing from the notes. At least one has since gone to Perth having struggled with LBP and passed the same courses.
Not sure what your point is on the Apache and Eurofighter....never worked on either. I said others were doing this didn't I? Problem is...how do you satisfy the experience requirements to become a B2 licenced engineer on Schweizer 333s & Bell 206s? You can't! They have a radio, lighting and basic electrical circuits that's about it!! Barely any instruments to speak of either. I looked through the logbook and there were at least three quarters of the requirements that couldn't be satisfied while working on these aircraft. That is why I went for the Oxford job, which I then discovered was payed exactly the same in an area where the cost of living was at least double.
To finish, i've never posted anything like this on the Air mech notice boards. I'm not even sure I have a log in......
My initial point, that was shot down in flames, was that this is a reason why there aren't so many people coming into the industry from the forces. I just used some of my experiences as examples.
In response to your attacks, I found out three months before I left that I was being discharged...I was told I was being retained (against my wishes, strangely, as I already had the job in Sheffield). I did not have months and months. Any pension I received was paid into by me as the forces pension is deducted from pay before they ever see it, so I had earned it!!
I never claimed I saved the company, they needed to employ someone and I came along...i'm not saying someone else couldn't do the same thing, only that it was me that ended up doing it instead of working on the aircraft!! It's got to be said that the Eurocopter job I went for interview for would have been ideal had I been single, but I just couldn't make the numbers add up with a family to support. I don't know what sort of 'living above my means' you think I am up to but I live in an ex-council semi in Sheffield, i'm hardly living it up in Monte Carlo!!
As for LBP....having not taken the exams so to not waste my money until i'm gaining experience, i'm going off what the other fitters I worked with at Sheffield told me, that entire subject matters were missing from the notes. At least one has since gone to Perth having struggled with LBP and passed the same courses.
Not sure what your point is on the Apache and Eurofighter....never worked on either. I said others were doing this didn't I? Problem is...how do you satisfy the experience requirements to become a B2 licenced engineer on Schweizer 333s & Bell 206s? You can't! They have a radio, lighting and basic electrical circuits that's about it!! Barely any instruments to speak of either. I looked through the logbook and there were at least three quarters of the requirements that couldn't be satisfied while working on these aircraft. That is why I went for the Oxford job, which I then discovered was payed exactly the same in an area where the cost of living was at least double.
To finish, i've never posted anything like this on the Air mech notice boards. I'm not even sure I have a log in......
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Unfortunately the services is full of people who talk the talk. The amount of folk who feel hard done by because they have to study for a licence is shocking. Civvy guys who've been brought up on civil aircraft working to civil procedures have to do it so why should a forces guy who has spent his entire life on miltary jets be any different.
Plenty of us have left the forces and done it the hard way. I used the time during my last couple of years in the RAF before PVR'ing wisely. I was on an operational squadron with 24/7 coverage working shifts but I still found the time to study for my ticket. In fact, I never had it so easy. Fixing a couple of aunt bettie's clapped out transport aircraft with 8 hour turnrounds and a handful of flights a day now seems like childs play compared to life on the line as a LAE in the civil sector. Try 60 odd movements, AOG's, defects and the regular 'A' check thrown in for good measure in a 12 period with only half a dozen blokes on shift and you start to get the picture. Most of the ex-forces guys I now work with who sat on their arse taking the money for queen and country often comment on how they regret not getting qualified prior to leaving.
Masterofnone, perhaps the reason why so many forces guys are steering clear on the civil sector is the thought of having to start at the bottom all over again. It isn't a case of simply carrying on where you left off and the longer you stay in, the harder it is to adapt. That said, if you pass the exams before jumping ship, promotion to LAE status with a type rating and company approval is easily achievable within 18 months of leaving if you knuckle down and prove yourself.
If you show up in on your first day of employment out here with the typical forces 'know it all' attitude you'll last all of 5 minutes. I remember a few years ago in the hangar at a well known MRO. An ex-Sgt turned up fresh out of the RAF with no experience of working large passenger aircraft. When asked to remove some leading edge panels he remarked that he hadn't spent 22 years in the RAF for nothing and that he should be supervising somebody else to do the job. When questioned about the licenses, type ratings and company approvals he held his face drew a blank. Needless to say he was gone by the end of the week.
Plenty of us have left the forces and done it the hard way. I used the time during my last couple of years in the RAF before PVR'ing wisely. I was on an operational squadron with 24/7 coverage working shifts but I still found the time to study for my ticket. In fact, I never had it so easy. Fixing a couple of aunt bettie's clapped out transport aircraft with 8 hour turnrounds and a handful of flights a day now seems like childs play compared to life on the line as a LAE in the civil sector. Try 60 odd movements, AOG's, defects and the regular 'A' check thrown in for good measure in a 12 period with only half a dozen blokes on shift and you start to get the picture. Most of the ex-forces guys I now work with who sat on their arse taking the money for queen and country often comment on how they regret not getting qualified prior to leaving.
Masterofnone, perhaps the reason why so many forces guys are steering clear on the civil sector is the thought of having to start at the bottom all over again. It isn't a case of simply carrying on where you left off and the longer you stay in, the harder it is to adapt. That said, if you pass the exams before jumping ship, promotion to LAE status with a type rating and company approval is easily achievable within 18 months of leaving if you knuckle down and prove yourself.
If you show up in on your first day of employment out here with the typical forces 'know it all' attitude you'll last all of 5 minutes. I remember a few years ago in the hangar at a well known MRO. An ex-Sgt turned up fresh out of the RAF with no experience of working large passenger aircraft. When asked to remove some leading edge panels he remarked that he hadn't spent 22 years in the RAF for nothing and that he should be supervising somebody else to do the job. When questioned about the licenses, type ratings and company approvals he held his face drew a blank. Needless to say he was gone by the end of the week.
Last edited by EGT Redline; 17th May 2009 at 23:51.
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Being ex sevices myself, i left betties air force in the early 90's through no choice of my own, eviction order for my quarters and a 4 month old baby to boot. Not a good position to be in but some difficult decisions were made and eventually managed to get on the circuit.
Yes it was bloody hard, different attitudes, conditions, very long hrs, crap rate (£7.35) etc but i pulled thru and eventually got a permie job.
Even then this was not a rosy picture by any means, again long hrs, crap pay but i got on with started studying in earnest and finally got my section L.
I collated loads of information from different sources some from LBP, some from Perth, Kiddlington and so on and used it all to good effect. Once i was typed up i went back on the circuit again this time licenced and earned a good wedge and then finally went permie again in my present job.
At no point did i expect anything to be handed to me on a plate, i fought bloody hard for what i got and even now that is the attitude i still take.
In my time i have met many ex forces who have gone into civil aviation and most of them knuckled down and got on with it. Yes there has been the odd one or two who thought they would would be in the same position of authority they had in the armed forces but they were all given a large dose of reality and changed their attitude.
All the lads who leave the RAF,ARMY,NAVY with their licences will still have to start at the bottom due to lack of civil experience, get type rated with relevant experience sheets filled out etc and then work their way up. That is life, that is the way the cookie crumbles, get on with it.
Civil aviation does rely an awful lot on ex forces to make up for the short fall in apprenticeship schemes that is a fact of life.
Nothing is easy, you do have to work hard but the potential to earn a good wage is still out there and we all need to encourage anybody who wants to join civil aviation to do so.
If you don't want to work hard then go on the rock an roll and become another leech on society. If you need to travel longer distances to get to a better paid job then do so that is life i'm afraid. ( I drive approx 500 miles a week, MY CHOICE!) I will move closer once my son has finished his education.
A little bit off track with this but in the end it all boils down to what YOU want from life and how hard you are prepared to chase it.
Yes it was bloody hard, different attitudes, conditions, very long hrs, crap rate (£7.35) etc but i pulled thru and eventually got a permie job.
Even then this was not a rosy picture by any means, again long hrs, crap pay but i got on with started studying in earnest and finally got my section L.
I collated loads of information from different sources some from LBP, some from Perth, Kiddlington and so on and used it all to good effect. Once i was typed up i went back on the circuit again this time licenced and earned a good wedge and then finally went permie again in my present job.
At no point did i expect anything to be handed to me on a plate, i fought bloody hard for what i got and even now that is the attitude i still take.
In my time i have met many ex forces who have gone into civil aviation and most of them knuckled down and got on with it. Yes there has been the odd one or two who thought they would would be in the same position of authority they had in the armed forces but they were all given a large dose of reality and changed their attitude.
All the lads who leave the RAF,ARMY,NAVY with their licences will still have to start at the bottom due to lack of civil experience, get type rated with relevant experience sheets filled out etc and then work their way up. That is life, that is the way the cookie crumbles, get on with it.
Civil aviation does rely an awful lot on ex forces to make up for the short fall in apprenticeship schemes that is a fact of life.
Nothing is easy, you do have to work hard but the potential to earn a good wage is still out there and we all need to encourage anybody who wants to join civil aviation to do so.
If you don't want to work hard then go on the rock an roll and become another leech on society. If you need to travel longer distances to get to a better paid job then do so that is life i'm afraid. ( I drive approx 500 miles a week, MY CHOICE!) I will move closer once my son has finished his education.
A little bit off track with this but in the end it all boils down to what YOU want from life and how hard you are prepared to chase it.
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Having spent 5 years getting a degree, and 8 years getting experience, I wish I was earning 30k as an IT person (post earlier)...... try working for the NHS if you think you're badly paid for doing something you've spent lots of time and effort learning how to do.. 19k is my salary - for 13 years of hard graft..
Where do I sign up for a proper engineers job and salary??
Where do I sign up for a proper engineers job and salary??
