Engineers Duty Hours
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Engineers Duty Hours
Over the last few weeks I have done a number of flights where it was necessary for us to take along some engineers. I have been horrified at the duty hours these guys have to do. They go to the aircraft before us, fly on the flight, do the turn round while we get of and go to the hotel and a new flight crew takes over, and then they fly all the way back again, and sort out any defects before getting to a proper hotel and a proper bed!
This cannot be right or safe. Is it about time that the engineers flying with an aircraft had to comply with aircrew duty limitations at least that of cabin crew?
This cannot be right or safe. Is it about time that the engineers flying with an aircraft had to comply with aircrew duty limitations at least that of cabin crew?
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Is it about time that the engineers flying with an aircraft had to comply with aircrew duty limitations at least that of cabin crew?
I don't think the arlines would be too happy with all the costs of the extra staff required to cover the overtime that wouldn't be done if engineers hours were restricted, all needing holiday pay, pension, sick pay, national insurance etc,etc.
Also not too many happy engineers with the loss of overtime payments.
Maybe the flight crews could take a pay cut refective of their actual duty hours to help fund such a venture.
Seriously though:
Unfortunately, aircraft engineering is not in the front line of avaition, as far as the public and media are concerned, and as a result engineers hours are not subject to same public debates as crew hours. Because of this the airlines have almost self regulated the engineers hours to keep costs down.
In saying that the overtime payments do make up a large part of my total earnings, so really I won't complain.
I could always opt in to the European working time directive but her indoors might not get that boob job.
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previously I did alot of flying spanner work and let me tell you the money isn't worth it!
you get to the aircraft first,(5am) carryout what you have to do then go flying for 5-6 hours get off carry out any defect rect's refuel turn around go flying again mind you new crew another 5-6hour flight, land and do it again. by this time new crew but still only you!
no duty times for engineers regardless of if you are flight crew or if you are on the ground.
I guess what we do is inconsequentional to a safe flight?
engineers aren't paid thier true value and due to us not bieng seen by joe public not considered vital in the whole picture.
if you have to do overtime to earn a decent wage are you really earning your fair worth?
don't quote me but aren't pilots paid for the maximum hours flying a year regardless of whether they do or don't.(once again assumption)
and this might be different for LCC pilots.
companies believe they have enough engineers to do all the work with all there expansions and the increased flying,
now when a company buys an aircraft it adds depending on how much utilization anything up to 8 sets of crew( allowing for sick leave, duty hours, and 24 hour coverage)
my question is how many engineers are added? if any.
every engineering company/airline wants to fight off duty hours for engineers because maybe they realise they don't have enough.
then the old excuse new aircraft less maintenance not as much to be done as the older ones, yes but for how long? aircraft don't stay new for ever, or do they. in the eyes of a beancounter it's oh the airplane is only 3 years old, not it's done 30000 cyles numerous heavy landings flown through ice,snow,rain and hail half its life on paper its still new!
now I'm getting carried away and getting more and more off track.
just my opinion
you get to the aircraft first,(5am) carryout what you have to do then go flying for 5-6 hours get off carry out any defect rect's refuel turn around go flying again mind you new crew another 5-6hour flight, land and do it again. by this time new crew but still only you!
no duty times for engineers regardless of if you are flight crew or if you are on the ground.
I guess what we do is inconsequentional to a safe flight?
engineers aren't paid thier true value and due to us not bieng seen by joe public not considered vital in the whole picture.
if you have to do overtime to earn a decent wage are you really earning your fair worth?
don't quote me but aren't pilots paid for the maximum hours flying a year regardless of whether they do or don't.(once again assumption)
and this might be different for LCC pilots.
companies believe they have enough engineers to do all the work with all there expansions and the increased flying,
now when a company buys an aircraft it adds depending on how much utilization anything up to 8 sets of crew( allowing for sick leave, duty hours, and 24 hour coverage)
my question is how many engineers are added? if any.
every engineering company/airline wants to fight off duty hours for engineers because maybe they realise they don't have enough.
then the old excuse new aircraft less maintenance not as much to be done as the older ones, yes but for how long? aircraft don't stay new for ever, or do they. in the eyes of a beancounter it's oh the airplane is only 3 years old, not it's done 30000 cyles numerous heavy landings flown through ice,snow,rain and hail half its life on paper its still new!
now I'm getting carried away and getting more and more off track.
just my opinion
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Spot on everyone. Hostie gets a sniffle first thing that morning? Aircraft's decked 'til they drag another one out of bed.
Engineers are at half strength because that's all the crap contract pays for? Who gives a t#ss? Not the airline, because the work still gets done.
You whinge but get on with it. At least it keeps us in-demand and on overtime.
It occured to me last night just how little (the majority of) pilots know about what we do for a living. Maybe we like it that way, I dunno.
Thanks for your comments MarkBob; good thread.
Engineers are at half strength because that's all the crap contract pays for? Who gives a t#ss? Not the airline, because the work still gets done.
You whinge but get on with it. At least it keeps us in-demand and on overtime.
It occured to me last night just how little (the majority of) pilots know about what we do for a living. Maybe we like it that way, I dunno.
Thanks for your comments MarkBob; good thread.
At a well known UK Charter airline I used to work for within the last two years; An engineer messed up the aircraft by incorrect choices and selections. During the subsequent MOR and QA investigations he is discovered to have made the mistake after some 18 hours of duty time.
In an effort to review the maintenance procedures and mitigate potential recurrences, the objective is so fudged by management, worried by the effects of a solid rule, that all engineers are now encouraged to work not more than 24 hours in any one day!
This was an actual 'procedure review' and the result was okay'ed by national airworthiness officials as they perceived something had been done.
In an effort to review the maintenance procedures and mitigate potential recurrences, the objective is so fudged by management, worried by the effects of a solid rule, that all engineers are now encouraged to work not more than 24 hours in any one day!
This was an actual 'procedure review' and the result was okay'ed by national airworthiness officials as they perceived something had been done.
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As I said it is in the best interests of a company to do nothing about engineering duty hours as they believe their costs will go up.
I have seen the same thing happen managers stating no more than 16 hours on the trot unless directly autherised from the manager, the same day an hour before you go home oh sorry can you....
so when you ring them up at some crappy hour, why did you ring oh sorry just do what you have to.
suddenly the rules don't apply anymore and it is swept up under the carpet again!
I have seen the same thing happen managers stating no more than 16 hours on the trot unless directly autherised from the manager, the same day an hour before you go home oh sorry can you....
so when you ring them up at some crappy hour, why did you ring oh sorry just do what you have to.
suddenly the rules don't apply anymore and it is swept up under the carpet again!
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engineers working hours
Airworthiness Notice 47, mentions not being fatigued when working on aircraft. I am sure if mentioned to the manager, that directing engineers to do excessive hours, H.S.E. and duty of care, he would let the travelling engineer join the crew in the hotel, for 12 hours of rest.
Last edited by mitzy69; 16th Feb 2008 at 13:02.
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I don't think it would be easy to intoduce a limit to the amount of hours engineers can work but maybe a restriction like not been allowed to certify after 16/18 straight hours on duty might help.
Its all down to money, the management and accountants will visit the engineers line office during the morning or afternoon on a weekday when at least half the aircraft are flying and they'll see x amount of engineers sitting around looking at the AMM or drinking tea or watching tv etc ( sorry drinking tea or looking at tv or looking at the AMM etc) and they think there's plenty of engineers.
They never visit at 3 O'Clock on Saturday or Sunday morning when one lad is on holidays another sick and all the aircraft are down with defects and need to be serviceable before 0700 so one of the day shift had to stay behind to help out as there was just too much to do.
NAA audits are also the same, they are always during a weekday and are nearly always planned so there's always plenty of staff.
I can't remember thet last time I saw a random audit?
Its all down to money, the management and accountants will visit the engineers line office during the morning or afternoon on a weekday when at least half the aircraft are flying and they'll see x amount of engineers sitting around looking at the AMM or drinking tea or watching tv etc ( sorry drinking tea or looking at tv or looking at the AMM etc
) and they think there's plenty of engineers. They never visit at 3 O'Clock on Saturday or Sunday morning when one lad is on holidays another sick and all the aircraft are down with defects and need to be serviceable before 0700 so one of the day shift had to stay behind to help out as there was just too much to do.
NAA audits are also the same, they are always during a weekday and are nearly always planned so there's always plenty of staff.
I can't remember thet last time I saw a random audit?
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This is the real purpose of HF courses.
So that when you've screwed up after doing 18 hours the company can say 'We put him on a course,he should've known better'.
So that when you've screwed up after doing 18 hours the company can say 'We put him on a course,he should've known better'.
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I always understood ( having done the odd trip..or two ) that one of the great "get out" clauses for "management"....was that as a spanner, whilst you could be classed as super nummerary crew for customs docs... but because you were not actually operating crew and the time spent working was, in theory, shorter than the flight time then you were not exceeding your working hours as you could rest.....rest..in a cabin full of Twacy and "well 'ard big Dazzy" pax...??..or a jump seat of course...on the flight to and from the destinations. Total working hours never quite seem to be added to the equation.
Sadly of course, there is the perennial problem that engineers always induce...and wonder why they get s£%t on at times....that of overtime as a bait.
..or a jump seat of course...on the flight to and from the destinations. Total working hours never quite seem to be added to the equation. Sadly of course, there is the perennial problem that engineers always induce...and wonder why they get s£%t on at times....that of overtime as a bait.
This is a regular discussion topic and its clear that whilst some of us would like to see some action over this issue, there are some would clearly not!!
AWN47 is full of good stuff but is written in normal CAA parlance (ie suitably vague)
Sure, we can all currently quote it to our employers until we're blue in the face! However, there's nothing in it to totally prevent anyone working Ghosters etc or any other daft amount of hours because its left up to the individual to decide how capable they are of continuing after working excessive hours.
AWN47 mentions that by law engineers are expected to take a professional attitude with reference to fitness for work etc. All this means is that if there is an incident we can be prosecuted for not following CAA guidelines . We have no legislated protection regarding maximum working hours and its this that needs resolving to level the playing field for everyone across the industry.
I think if some of the punters knew how long Engineers had been on the clock when recovering AOG’s, they would justifiably refuse to fly on the plane!
BE
AWN47 is full of good stuff but is written in normal CAA parlance (ie suitably vague)
Sure, we can all currently quote it to our employers until we're blue in the face! However, there's nothing in it to totally prevent anyone working Ghosters etc or any other daft amount of hours because its left up to the individual to decide how capable they are of continuing after working excessive hours.
AWN47 mentions that by law engineers are expected to take a professional attitude with reference to fitness for work etc. All this means is that if there is an incident we can be prosecuted for not following CAA guidelines . We have no legislated protection regarding maximum working hours and its this that needs resolving to level the playing field for everyone across the industry.
I think if some of the punters knew how long Engineers had been on the clock when recovering AOG’s, they would justifiably refuse to fly on the plane!
BE
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In the Mil we often worked until we dropped, but then our squadron crews did the same. Later, Vulcan aircrews flew all the way to Port Stanley and back without whinging about crew-duty hours. Their engineers worked through many 'ghosters' preparing the aircraft and improvising lots of local mods along the-way. So, its quite possible that long hours at the wheel aren't as exhausting as they are made out to be. Personally, I reckon disturbed diurnal rythms are the real crippler.
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You engineers are your own worst enemy as usual. You will never have properly regulated hours because too many of you are chasing only the dollar.
Military aircraft with a couple of souls sitting on bang seats does not compare to a 380 with 800 on board.
How do you marry "professional" with some of your colleagues attitude to working hours?
For fare paying passengers only the highest standards will do. As long as truck drivers hours are regulated and yours not, you remain well below what is required before you can call yourself professionals.
Military aircraft with a couple of souls sitting on bang seats does not compare to a 380 with 800 on board.
How do you marry "professional" with some of your colleagues attitude to working hours?
For fare paying passengers only the highest standards will do. As long as truck drivers hours are regulated and yours not, you remain well below what is required before you can call yourself professionals.
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If we were paid a reasonable wage for working regulated hours then I'd do it, of course.
We only chase the "dollar" as living on professional laurels gets a bit tiresome.
I've been "Professional" enough not to have put much of an engineering foot wrong in 23 years Yamaha.
But as I said bring on the regulation AND the required pay increase
We only chase the "dollar" as living on professional laurels gets a bit tiresome.
I've been "Professional" enough not to have put much of an engineering foot wrong in 23 years Yamaha.
But as I said bring on the regulation AND the required pay increase
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I think you have a problem with reality.
The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.
You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.
You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck
The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.
You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.
You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck
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It seems you are goading for a fight Yamaha........ £40k for our skills and education is below par. I would hazard a guess that you have not had your hand in a waste tank at 4 in the morning trying to remove an airfreshner that a hosty unwittingly put down the lav, knowing that the fair paying public arrive in a hour to fly off on holiday. And another thing, it should not affect your engineering proffessionalism whether their are two military pilots sat on bang seats or 800+ 'civvies' flying half way across the world, well it wouldnt affect my professionalism....................
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I think you have a problem with reality.
The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.
You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.
You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck
The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.
You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.
You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck
I think it is you who has a problem with reality Yam! How long did it take you to get your licence and then upgrade it from frozen and start flying? Not 3 years I bet? But that's what happens with engineers. An ab initio licence holder has to wait 3 years before he can be type rated and excercise the privilege of that licence. In that time he will have to attend type courses and then prove he has worked on just about every system on the type before the type will be put on his licence. Though there is no official academic equivalent to the licence, licence holders are able to become Incorporated or Chartered engineers (dependant on seniority and experience) via the RAeS and the EC.
Whilst a pilot is indeed responsible for the 10-800 souls on board while he is in command. An engineer is responsible for ANY componant/inspection he or she may fit/carry out on an aircraft for THE ENTIRE TIME IT IS ON THE A/C or until it is next inspected. If I were to incorrectly install a control actuator and it fails due to my error then I can be prosecuted and even jailed. Even if the failure occurs several months down the line.
An engineers systems knowledge will be far greater than a pilots and quite possibly they will be able to fly too. To top it all the training, etc never stops. There are new types (about 8 weeks for each course), licence integration means that engineers are now multi-trade where they were single trade specialists (each trade qualification may take several months of study, usually self study when off shift). I have taken 6 CAA/EASA licences since getting my initial licence each licence usually comprising 2-3 modules so that's about 15-18 exams with oral exams on top.
Sometimes the lack of understanding of the worth of fellow aviation professionals amazes me??!!
Ah well. Rant over.
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I think you have a problem with reality.
The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.
You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.
You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck
The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.
You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.
You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck