Aero graduate
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Aero graduate
Hello this is my first post and I was wondering if anyone on this forum could please help me.
I graduated with an aeronautical engineering BEng nearly 2 years ago. I have applied to a number of graduate schemes (with Airbus, BAE Systems, Qinetiq, Rolls Royce) since graduating but with no success. I have been working in jobs that are not related to my degree and certainly don’t require my uni education. My career isn’t going anywhere at the moment, and I feel I need to do something drastic now before it is too late.
I am considering doing my matching sections by completing an MSc (possibly form Cranfield), hoping that it might increase my chance of securing an engineering job at the end of it. Is it worth it, or is getting some sort of work experience in the industry to bolster my CV more important? If experience is more important what is the best starting point?
Any suggestions for my current situation? I don’t have a particular sector of the industry that I want to get into (although I did enjoy my in-flight testing program during my uni course). I guess for me it’s a case of near desperation before I run out of brain cells. Any help or pointers would be gladly received.
Thanks,
pride and joy
P.S. I am considering joining the Royal Aeronautical Society for an Associate membership for £60 pa, hoping that it will help with my networking and increase the number of contacts that I have within the industry. Are anyone members and is it worth it?
I graduated with an aeronautical engineering BEng nearly 2 years ago. I have applied to a number of graduate schemes (with Airbus, BAE Systems, Qinetiq, Rolls Royce) since graduating but with no success. I have been working in jobs that are not related to my degree and certainly don’t require my uni education. My career isn’t going anywhere at the moment, and I feel I need to do something drastic now before it is too late.
I am considering doing my matching sections by completing an MSc (possibly form Cranfield), hoping that it might increase my chance of securing an engineering job at the end of it. Is it worth it, or is getting some sort of work experience in the industry to bolster my CV more important? If experience is more important what is the best starting point?
Any suggestions for my current situation? I don’t have a particular sector of the industry that I want to get into (although I did enjoy my in-flight testing program during my uni course). I guess for me it’s a case of near desperation before I run out of brain cells. Any help or pointers would be gladly received.
Thanks,
pride and joy
P.S. I am considering joining the Royal Aeronautical Society for an Associate membership for £60 pa, hoping that it will help with my networking and increase the number of contacts that I have within the industry. Are anyone members and is it worth it?
Educated Hillbilly
There is a shortage of engineers in certain areas at the moment, eg; systems architecture/integration, stress analysis.
Have you tried applying to the small stress/design contract companies such as GED, Magellen, Morson Inbis. These do not necessarily run formal graduate schemes such as airbus or rolls royce but are good places for learning the stress or design trade.
Have you tried applying to the small stress/design contract companies such as GED, Magellen, Morson Inbis. These do not necessarily run formal graduate schemes such as airbus or rolls royce but are good places for learning the stress or design trade.
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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer
Have you tried applying to the small stress/design contract companies such as GED, Magellen, Morson Inbis. These do not necessarily run formal graduate schemes such as airbus or rolls royce but are good places for learning the stress or design trade.
Thanks.
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Hi Ppruners, after 2 yrs of skulking around this thread made me join, so.. I seem to be a similar case here. You see, B Eng just doesn't seem to be enough, even if 1st class. Big companies with graduate entries seem to prefer Master degree graduates as there is enough supply of those. With bachelors, one's chances of joining may be better if one has done a placement with them. I just secured an internship at an airport abroad, and the credit for that goes to my uni's careers department. Or, as portsharbourflyer suggested, small businesses are a great way as well, most of my course mates have gone that way. Good luck anyway.
Educated Hillbilly
Sounds as though things are not quite so good now for graduates as they were when I graduated in the late 90's. However I can assure you that if you step into any aircraft design office you will generally see a bit of a demographic problem (lack of young staff), so there is certainly the need to recruit the youngsters in order for the UK aerospace industry to survive.
SARTOR requirements for chartership now require four years of acedemic study, ie: MEng or BEng with an MSc, alot of the large company graduate programmes are geared towards achieving chartership, hence why just a BEng may not get you onto those schemes. However getting chartered isn't actually that important, what is more you tend to learn most of what you need on the job (you do use aspects of the degree more so than in other industries), but a years experience in industry training is far more useful than an extra year at university. Infact I know plenty of stress analysts whom have only ever held a hnc or hnd.
To summarise the industry is short of engineers, P and J, your lack of experience shouldn't be too much of an issue, as a fresh graduate even if you are not on a formal training scheme, I have found in the small companies experienced engineers are generelly happy to pass on knowledge and advice. If you can follow an ESDU data sheet you should be fine.
There is a shortage of stress analysts and other specialisations, so I would expect some companies are prepared to take on graduates as trainees.
SARTOR requirements for chartership now require four years of acedemic study, ie: MEng or BEng with an MSc, alot of the large company graduate programmes are geared towards achieving chartership, hence why just a BEng may not get you onto those schemes. However getting chartered isn't actually that important, what is more you tend to learn most of what you need on the job (you do use aspects of the degree more so than in other industries), but a years experience in industry training is far more useful than an extra year at university. Infact I know plenty of stress analysts whom have only ever held a hnc or hnd.
To summarise the industry is short of engineers, P and J, your lack of experience shouldn't be too much of an issue, as a fresh graduate even if you are not on a formal training scheme, I have found in the small companies experienced engineers are generelly happy to pass on knowledge and advice. If you can follow an ESDU data sheet you should be fine.
There is a shortage of stress analysts and other specialisations, so I would expect some companies are prepared to take on graduates as trainees.
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Originally Posted by W.R.A.I.T.H
Hi Ppruners, after 2 yrs of skulking around this thread made me join, so.. I seem to be a similar case here. You see, B Eng just doesn't seem to be enough, even if 1st class. Big companies with graduate entries seem to prefer Master degree graduates as there is enough supply of those. With bachelors, one's chances of joining may be better if one has done a placement with them. I just secured an internship at an airport abroad, and the credit for that goes to my uni's careers department. Or, as portsharbourflyer suggested, small businesses are a great way as well, most of my course mates have gone that way. Good luck anyway.
Congratulations on securing your internship abroad - I hope it all goes well for you. How difficult was it to secure it without any prior experience (perhaps you have some industry experience already), and is it a technical placement?
Last edited by pride and joy; 27th Aug 2006 at 07:38.
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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer
To summarise the industry is short of engineers, P and J, your lack of experience shouldn't be too much of an issue, as a fresh graduate even if you are not on a formal training scheme, I have found in the small companies experienced engineers are generelly happy to pass on knowledge and advice. If you can follow an ESDU data sheet you should be fine. There is a shortage of stress analysts and other specialisations, so I would expect some companies are prepared to take on graduates as trainees.
Thanks again.
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Hi P'n'J, my industrial experience equals something around nil unless endless tampering with my car counts - that's actually why placements are here, to get some. Mine's more of operations than engineering, which I'm happy about, although I would have enjoyed stress analysis just as well and am not ruling it out for the future in any case. Try and get in touch with your uni's careers office, they should have someone for international relations, so tell them you are interested in getting somewhere out and they'll tell you what can be done. It takes some courage and a lot of luck, just as everything, but it sure looks amazing on your CV afterwards, not to mention the language. And if you're extremely lucky and handleit well, they might as well offer to finance your Masters or something. Definitely worth a shot.
Educated Hillbilly
P and J,
Remember my advice is coming from one corner of the industry and there are numerous other specialisations you can become involved with. But in answer to your question what goes on in a design office? Well it is a bit if a generic term I suppose and almost impossible for me to summarise, and my experience is mainly mechanical, think of it the place that produces all the documentation that is required to produce (ie;instructions for manufacture dwings and cad files), verify (ie; performance test reports, structural verifiaction in the form of stress analysis reports, reliability prediction reports etc) and approve a design(ie; safety reports, compliance with oringinal specs etc). I suppose in aerospace I could categorise design offices into two types, those that are onsite tagged onto a manufacturing site, by far the more interesting to work, as you can easily access the equipment you are designing/analysing, where everything and anything goes on. The second are the stand alone design/analysis contract "houses" that take on sub contract design and analysis work and often isited away from the place of manufacture. It is always difficult getting the first position, but if companies are not currently taking on graduates we certainly need to be. Aero industry can be very boom and bust, but we are currently on a boom period and it should be good for five years or so. Good luck, P and J have you applied for the GKN Aerospace graduate scheme?
Remember my advice is coming from one corner of the industry and there are numerous other specialisations you can become involved with. But in answer to your question what goes on in a design office? Well it is a bit if a generic term I suppose and almost impossible for me to summarise, and my experience is mainly mechanical, think of it the place that produces all the documentation that is required to produce (ie;instructions for manufacture dwings and cad files), verify (ie; performance test reports, structural verifiaction in the form of stress analysis reports, reliability prediction reports etc) and approve a design(ie; safety reports, compliance with oringinal specs etc). I suppose in aerospace I could categorise design offices into two types, those that are onsite tagged onto a manufacturing site, by far the more interesting to work, as you can easily access the equipment you are designing/analysing, where everything and anything goes on. The second are the stand alone design/analysis contract "houses" that take on sub contract design and analysis work and often isited away from the place of manufacture. It is always difficult getting the first position, but if companies are not currently taking on graduates we certainly need to be. Aero industry can be very boom and bust, but we are currently on a boom period and it should be good for five years or so. Good luck, P and J have you applied for the GKN Aerospace graduate scheme?
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Hi P'n'J, my industrial experience equals something around nil unless endless tampering with my car counts - that's actually why placements are here, to get some. Mine's more of operations than engineering, which I'm happy about, although I would have enjoyed stress analysis just as well and am not ruling it out for the future in any case. Try and get in touch with your uni's careers office, they should have someone for international relations, so tell them you are interested in getting somewhere out and they'll tell you what can be done. It takes some courage and a lot of luck, just as everything, but it sure looks amazing on your CV afterwards, not to mention the language. And if you're extremely lucky and handleit well, they might as well offer to finance your Masters or something. Definitely worth a shot.
.Hope you'll enjoy your time abroad, and all the best for the work whilst you're out there.
Thanks,
pride and joy
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P and J,
Remember my advice is coming from one corner of the industry and there are numerous other specialisations you can become involved with. But in answer to your question what goes on in a design office? Well it is a bit if a generic term I suppose and almost impossible for me to summarise, and my experience is mainly mechanical, think of it the place that produces all the documentation that is required to produce (ie;instructions for manufacture dwings and cad files), verify (ie; performance test reports, structural verifiaction in the form of stress analysis reports, reliability prediction reports etc) and approve a design(ie; safety reports, compliance with oringinal specs etc). I suppose in aerospace I could categorise design offices into two types, those that are onsite tagged onto a manufacturing site, by far the more interesting to work, as you can easily access the equipment you are designing/analysing, where everything and anything goes on. The second are the stand alone design/analysis contract "houses" that take on sub contract design and analysis work and often isited away from the place of manufacture. It is always difficult getting the first position, but if companies are not currently taking on graduates we certainly need to be. Aero industry can be very boom and bust, but we are currently on a boom period and it should be good for five years or so. Good luck, P and J have you applied for the GKN Aerospace graduate scheme?
Remember my advice is coming from one corner of the industry and there are numerous other specialisations you can become involved with. But in answer to your question what goes on in a design office? Well it is a bit if a generic term I suppose and almost impossible for me to summarise, and my experience is mainly mechanical, think of it the place that produces all the documentation that is required to produce (ie;instructions for manufacture dwings and cad files), verify (ie; performance test reports, structural verifiaction in the form of stress analysis reports, reliability prediction reports etc) and approve a design(ie; safety reports, compliance with oringinal specs etc). I suppose in aerospace I could categorise design offices into two types, those that are onsite tagged onto a manufacturing site, by far the more interesting to work, as you can easily access the equipment you are designing/analysing, where everything and anything goes on. The second are the stand alone design/analysis contract "houses" that take on sub contract design and analysis work and often isited away from the place of manufacture. It is always difficult getting the first position, but if companies are not currently taking on graduates we certainly need to be. Aero industry can be very boom and bust, but we are currently on a boom period and it should be good for five years or so. Good luck, P and J have you applied for the GKN Aerospace graduate scheme?
Thanks,
pride and joy
Educated Hillbilly
We were all fresh graduates at some point. Your summary of the design office, nearly correct, these days you only tend to get to work on one part of a complete aircraft (ie; the wings for example ) as most projects are joint european cooperations, hence we only get to do bits of aircraft.
At a small compnay then everything and anything will go on in the design office, at a larger institution you will have departments dedicated to a particular tasks (hence no defined deisgn office but a multitude of departments contributing to the design task).
I envy the people whom were in the industry in the 50s and 60s so many whole aircraft projects going on.
Anyway good luck
At a small compnay then everything and anything will go on in the design office, at a larger institution you will have departments dedicated to a particular tasks (hence no defined deisgn office but a multitude of departments contributing to the design task).
I envy the people whom were in the industry in the 50s and 60s so many whole aircraft projects going on.
Anyway good luck
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I am just about to start a MEng course at Uni, and will be taking the placement year as i have three friends all with Aerospace and Aeronautical degrees and working in jobs that you can walk into after school.
The problem, experience. So taking a year in industry in year three is the way to go, as least then you get a years experience, and then that could lead to that company sponsering or offering you a job, and most placement years are paid almost grad rates.
I do however have one friend who works for a company supplying Airbus, and he finds himself over in france a fair bit recently, and all he has is a HND in Aero Eng. The case of right time right place i think...
What Uni's did you guys go to? You think a placement year really will make any difference to my employability in 5 years?
The problem, experience. So taking a year in industry in year three is the way to go, as least then you get a years experience, and then that could lead to that company sponsering or offering you a job, and most placement years are paid almost grad rates.
I do however have one friend who works for a company supplying Airbus, and he finds himself over in france a fair bit recently, and all he has is a HND in Aero Eng. The case of right time right place i think...
What Uni's did you guys go to? You think a placement year really will make any difference to my employability in 5 years?
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I know how you feel guys.I'ev just graduated from Loughborough Uni which is one of the best unis in the country with a specialised degree in aviation. most airports/airlines dont seem to have grad schemes and ones that do have rejected both mine and other coursemates CVs - depsite the fact we have a degree background in their type of business.
I am now working in a job where i am the only graduate in the office, and no use is being made of my degree! sometimes i wonder if the 16k was really worth it.
My work experience is relevent, but the acutal openings seem scarce.
I am considering leaving my current job (advertised as a "graduate position
) at the end of my trial period but do worry about how this would look on my cv!FT
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Know how you feel. Got a BEng from Aston - applied to loads of jobs/grad schemes with no such success. Many of my classmates went on to do either Masters or PhD's or leave the field of Engineering. I decided to go down the PhD route. I think with the amount to graduates at the minute, you have to give yourself the edge of others applicants - so postgraduate study seems to be the best way to go.
Good luck!
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Yes there are quite a few people doing PhDs' these days who don't intend to go into academia or go into research positions. I started out doing my PhD because i wanted to do some really dedicated research but now that i am almost finished i want to move out into industry. Just a word of warning though, a PhD can be equally good and bad when it comes to looking for industry jobs. A number of people i know who got their PhDs in the last couple of years had quite a bit of trouble getting work afterwards. Its ok with the big companies like Rolls-Royce and Airbus, they understand the PhD qualification and often recruit PhDs straight into their engineering departments depending on expertise. But for smaller companies you can find that the PhD can scare them off! I've heard from a number of people that they got turned down for interview because they were deemed to be "overqualified" for a graduate position. Either that or the employers believe that you will demand a higher salary for doing the same job as someone with a BEng/MEng. It comes as quite a shock to some that they are only offered the same basic starting salary as a standard graduate but thats the way it goes. I'm not trying to put anyone off but just be aware that if you go down the PhD route you may have to battle quite hard to get across to potential employers what you have to offer and that you are not some mad-boffin type.
One piece of advice i would give if you want to do a PhD and then go into industry is to be very careful about the subject of your research. Try to get something which involves working very closely with an industrial partner, preferably something partly funded by industry, so that you can cite on your CV that you have experience working directly with industry. You would be surprised the difference that can make on getting called for job interviews etc.
One piece of advice i would give if you want to do a PhD and then go into industry is to be very careful about the subject of your research. Try to get something which involves working very closely with an industrial partner, preferably something partly funded by industry, so that you can cite on your CV that you have experience working directly with industry. You would be surprised the difference that can make on getting called for job interviews etc.
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Agreed 100% Merlin505! If you can find an indsutrially funded PhD (CASE) or an EngD, it means you will be working along side an industrial partner. Mine involves some work with BAE and Airbus. I wouldn't have done a PhD that didn't in some way involve industry, as my intention is also to go into industry after my PhD.
Educated Hillbilly
The trouble with an off spec Phd (one not backed alongside a company) is the subject matter is too specialised to be any use in industry (which is essentially what Merlin has stated), don't get me wrong I appreciate the fact that the research from Phds serves a useful purpose.
The majority of PHd holders I have worked with in industry are still doing the the exactly the same job as BEng or MEng holders, and on the whole you will get no financial benefit from having a PHd. If you don't go onto career in academia (research or lecturing) then all a Phd gets you is the title Doctor.
Essentially for the majority of graduate jobs in industry the thoery content of an HND is perfectly adequate to do the job, remember the majority of engineers whom designed the BAe1-11, Concorde probably only ever held the equivalent of an HND, misfortuantley the requirements for chartership have now been raised to fours years of acedemic study (MEng or Beng + Msc), so it is rare the HR department would now accept just a HND. I accept the current situation is forcing you to look to post graduate study, but in my opinion this isn't what the industry needs.
Planecrazy, I didn't do a year out in industry, but on my course it would be fair to say that those whom opted for the year most were taken on by same company after graduation, mind you the pay for a year out is nearly half to two/thirds that you would get as a graduate (at least it was when I was at University).
The majority of PHd holders I have worked with in industry are still doing the the exactly the same job as BEng or MEng holders, and on the whole you will get no financial benefit from having a PHd. If you don't go onto career in academia (research or lecturing) then all a Phd gets you is the title Doctor.
Essentially for the majority of graduate jobs in industry the thoery content of an HND is perfectly adequate to do the job, remember the majority of engineers whom designed the BAe1-11, Concorde probably only ever held the equivalent of an HND, misfortuantley the requirements for chartership have now been raised to fours years of acedemic study (MEng or Beng + Msc), so it is rare the HR department would now accept just a HND. I accept the current situation is forcing you to look to post graduate study, but in my opinion this isn't what the industry needs.
Planecrazy, I didn't do a year out in industry, but on my course it would be fair to say that those whom opted for the year most were taken on by same company after graduation, mind you the pay for a year out is nearly half to two/thirds that you would get as a graduate (at least it was when I was at University).
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 31st Aug 2006 at 19:41.
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So i am pretty sure i will stick with the placement year plan, i was told 15-18k for the year, i really have no idea on what grads get for a starting salary. Which leads me to a question, how much is they pay? I have done no research on this, just have a desire to work in aviation.
Another thing i wanted to ask, do many or any employers let the University studdied at influence the decission in giving you an interview or job? Is there a list of Unis for Aero Eng with the best at the top, and the least regarded at the bottom, i have seen such lists for Mechanical engineering, but not Aero.
I am off to Brunel, is this a good/goodish Uni to study Aero Eng at?
Finally, Aeronautical Engineering or Aerospace Engineering, Or Mechanical with Aerospace engineering?
thanks...
Another thing i wanted to ask, do many or any employers let the University studdied at influence the decission in giving you an interview or job? Is there a list of Unis for Aero Eng with the best at the top, and the least regarded at the bottom, i have seen such lists for Mechanical engineering, but not Aero.
I am off to Brunel, is this a good/goodish Uni to study Aero Eng at?
Finally, Aeronautical Engineering or Aerospace Engineering, Or Mechanical with Aerospace engineering?
thanks...
A few thoughts - I've a BEng (supplemented later by a PhD for the hell of it) and have been knocking around the UK aircraft industry for a couple of decades without (so far) managing to be unemployed. Incidentally, I got my CEng before they required an MEng, so that particular issue has never troubled me.
- Work experience counts for more than anything. Relevant work experience that is. Do anything you can to get it.
- If you really, really, can't get work experience (even unpaid) a relevant MSc is almost certainly the next best thing.
- A PhD sounds impressive, but only really if added to professional experience, not instead. You won't get much special treatment as Dr. inexperenced engineer compared to Mr. inexperienced engineer. This is even true if you want to work in a university - although substitute research for work experience to a large extent (+ publications record).
- Brunel courses. The Mech+Aero is basically mecheng for people who want to work in the aerospace industry. The aerospace engineering course has rather more aeronautical content, but is substantially similar. The aviation engineering course bins a lot of the more "pure mechanical" stuff in preference for much closer concentration upon the flight vehicle. All good courses, pick what suits your interests closest. Brunel hasn't much of an aero tradition, but is one of the biggest and best engineering departments in the UK, so you're unlikely to regret going there.
- Yes, do join the RAeS, but don't just join. Use the careers department, go to local branch meetings, attend headquarters lectures. In other words, learn stuff and network with people.
- The big company graduate training schemes are great - if you can get onto them. To just slot into a job, small companies will show you much more breadth. In either case, never ever send a standard application and CV. Spend days, per application tailoring it exactly to the company to whom you are applying.
G
CEng FRAeS
- Work experience counts for more than anything. Relevant work experience that is. Do anything you can to get it.
- If you really, really, can't get work experience (even unpaid) a relevant MSc is almost certainly the next best thing.
- A PhD sounds impressive, but only really if added to professional experience, not instead. You won't get much special treatment as Dr. inexperenced engineer compared to Mr. inexperienced engineer. This is even true if you want to work in a university - although substitute research for work experience to a large extent (+ publications record).
- Brunel courses. The Mech+Aero is basically mecheng for people who want to work in the aerospace industry. The aerospace engineering course has rather more aeronautical content, but is substantially similar. The aviation engineering course bins a lot of the more "pure mechanical" stuff in preference for much closer concentration upon the flight vehicle. All good courses, pick what suits your interests closest. Brunel hasn't much of an aero tradition, but is one of the biggest and best engineering departments in the UK, so you're unlikely to regret going there.
- Yes, do join the RAeS, but don't just join. Use the careers department, go to local branch meetings, attend headquarters lectures. In other words, learn stuff and network with people.
- The big company graduate training schemes are great - if you can get onto them. To just slot into a job, small companies will show you much more breadth. In either case, never ever send a standard application and CV. Spend days, per application tailoring it exactly to the company to whom you are applying.
G
CEng FRAeS