the end of the licensed engineer??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: oop north
Age: 54
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the end of the licensed engineer??
Anyone else seen the article in this months tech log ref easa,s plan to introduce "appropriatly authorised staff"(ie mechanics) to replace the b1 and b2 engineer ? rather concerning i must say .
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: very west
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Haven't seen the article, but have been having long, theoretical discussions with my CAA surveyor regarding the rapidly approaching shortfall of Certifying Licenced Engineers.
My observation of 'if we don't have a re-introduction of the Approved Un-Licenced Certifying Engineer - those people who overnight in the mid '90's were put on the scrapheap by the then newly introduced Airworthiness 14 (remember that one?) - what is the Authority going to do?'
The honest answer ' I really don't know what EASA are going to do'.
Maybe this is where the basis of Tech Log's article is from??
My observation of 'if we don't have a re-introduction of the Approved Un-Licenced Certifying Engineer - those people who overnight in the mid '90's were put on the scrapheap by the then newly introduced Airworthiness 14 (remember that one?) - what is the Authority going to do?'
The honest answer ' I really don't know what EASA are going to do'.
Maybe this is where the basis of Tech Log's article is from??
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The retention and recruitment problem arises from poor pay and conditions for licensed staff. The root of that problem is de-regulation and government capitulation to ever increasing public pressure for cheap flights. The proper answer is of course to improve salaries and conditions, which in turn would probably result in higher air fares. The EU and EASA seem determined to keep down the cost of flying by reducing the qualification levels of certifying staff. No doubt we'll then see even more mechanical guys switching to motor car repairs and avionics guys moving into IT - where they'll all get an immediate pay hike and face half the hassle.
Another interesting point. ICAO requires signatory states to issue licences to certify aircraft maintenance. It is important to note that it is the state that must issue the basic licence, not the operators. Apart from France, none of the EU member states lodged a difference to this rule and are committed to continue issuing licences. The EU isn't an ICAO signatory or national government. So it will be interesting to see how EASA and the EU might go about replacing B1 and B2 licensed staff with "appropriately authorised" people. Presumably they propose to have just a few C licence holders issue a group CRS covering any rectification accomplished during whole transits and other maintenance visits. That may technically satisfy the individual EU member states' obligation to ICAO, but what will be the reaction of other signatory states? Or the general public for that matter, once they cotton on to the implications...
Another interesting point. ICAO requires signatory states to issue licences to certify aircraft maintenance. It is important to note that it is the state that must issue the basic licence, not the operators. Apart from France, none of the EU member states lodged a difference to this rule and are committed to continue issuing licences. The EU isn't an ICAO signatory or national government. So it will be interesting to see how EASA and the EU might go about replacing B1 and B2 licensed staff with "appropriately authorised" people. Presumably they propose to have just a few C licence holders issue a group CRS covering any rectification accomplished during whole transits and other maintenance visits. That may technically satisfy the individual EU member states' obligation to ICAO, but what will be the reaction of other signatory states? Or the general public for that matter, once they cotton on to the implications...
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: OVER THE RAINBOW
Age: 74
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
reminds me of the old Dilbert sketch where every company in the world out sources their requirements until one person is doing all the work.
So looks like we'll have one guy in Stansted with a licence and all the others with approvals (limited of coarse to certain systems, to avoid moving jobs, wouldn't want somebody knowing the complete aircraft would we)
So looks like we'll have one guy in Stansted with a licence and all the others with approvals (limited of coarse to certain systems, to avoid moving jobs, wouldn't want somebody knowing the complete aircraft would we)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blacksheep says 'when the general public cotton on'....the standards of the aircraft engineers qualifications etc has been slowly lowered over the years....the general public don't give a monkeys....as long as they have a cheap flight. If there is an accident the blame will end up on an engineer (assuming its a maintenance issue) and some poor unlucky person will be shafted. As long as you the LAE know what you are doing and only act within your approval then you should be alright. Going back to the original article, I agree the role of the LAE is to be even further diminished, and as we don't have any strong union, politica etc backing, we are fighting a losing cause. Being 'one' with Europe hasn't helped in the slightest. It has made things worse with regards to standards I believe......
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the Hangar & on the Line
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
End of B1/B2??
I really hope that this isn't true... I'm studying for my B1/B2 at present with 7 modules completed, I really don't want it to be a waste of time!
But should new legislation be pushed through again, I'm certain no
one making the decision will give two hoots about the implications.
BAe146?
But should new legislation be pushed through again, I'm certain no
one making the decision will give two hoots about the implications.
BAe146?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: oop north
Age: 54
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would suggest anyone reading this who is concerned should join (if they have not done so already) the ALEA, they appear to be the only group who are fighting the LAE,s corner, and will im sure fight this issue on our behalf to the bitter end, we should remember if these people had not fought for the engineers licence in the seventies the LAE would be long gone.http://www.alae.org/site1/view_content.php?page=2
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the Hangar & on the Line
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The end??
I've only just read up a comment on Airmech regarding the issuance of restricted Part 66 B1 licences through holding an ICAO type I licence - ie the FAA A&P. The NAA involved being Malta? I was certain the only occurence of this was upon JAR66 implementation circa 2001?
The FAA A&P is a great licence to have (I myself have it) and despite the varied criticism it receives, could it not outlive the Part 66?? As it did JAR 66 and good old BCAR??
Its a dreadful mess, if only our lads and ladies up the front knew...
The FAA A&P is a great licence to have (I myself have it) and despite the varied criticism it receives, could it not outlive the Part 66?? As it did JAR 66 and good old BCAR??
Its a dreadful mess, if only our lads and ladies up the front knew...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the Hangar & on the Line
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Confirmed! The Malta CAA has definetly converted FAR Part 65 A&P licence to EASA Part 66 B1 ( with restrictions) 
I have a real distaste for EASA now, more than ever...
See you all at the ALAE AGM next month, I'm really
off now.
BAe146 + EASA???
I have a real distaste for EASA now, more than ever...
See you all at the ALAE AGM next month, I'm really
off now.BAe146 + EASA???
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has only been a matter of time.We are not wanted by anyone in the aviation industry.We are seen as an expensive pain in the a##e.Just think of the money that could be saved if no more licences were need to work on aircraft any more.Thats all the aviation industry see's at present.Safty has a price.People arent willing to pay for it,they just want cheaper fares and increased profits.I dont think most people would care if the odd 737 piled in every other year if they could still get to Dublin for £20 or where ever.
So what do we do next?We can all get behind the ALAE.Or do we start doing our own bit.What do you think.
So what do we do next?We can all get behind the ALAE.Or do we start doing our own bit.What do you think.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you think.
In 1977 BA maintenance staff went on strike over pay and conditions. One 'minor' issue lying un-noticed deep in the agenda, was the introduction of the LWTR and the end of type ratings. After three weeks of management signing off aeroplanes, everyone crept back to work grumbling about running out of spare cash. Six weeks of overtime clearing the backlog soon replenished everyone's cash balances. Other than clearing out a few left wing shop stewards, nothing was achieved. The way was open for the decline and removal of that thorn in the airlines' side, the type-rated LAE.
The pilots on the other hand, faced with the introduction of the B747, demanded a share in the benefits from their improved productivity. They refused to fly the B747s until their demands were met. The brand new aircraft sat on the ground for many, many months until the pilots got their way.
Notice any difference between these two approaches?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the Hangar & on the Line
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't beleive for one minute this rumour is unfounded. EASA are having
fantastic problems at so many levels, so the people that actually work
in this profession in the UK need to act now.
It may be on a smaller scale to start with but what will the end result be?
Hopefully retention of responsibilities, status and continued enhanced
safety to all those that fly.
We could ALL sit back and do nothing. Allowing ill-qualified EASA people to decide not just the fate of the L.A.E. but a big chunk of how airworthiness is controlled too - this would be most unwise.
When the ALAE formed, the threat to the L.A.E. was purely national right?
This threat is different because it is EASA led - although it will certainly suit some NAAs, no doubt about that! But, would the UK CAA give up their
scheme of charges to us THAT EASILY??!!£££££££
If ammendments to 2042/2003 are only at proposal stage then we
may have a chance to influence thinking. The worst any of us can do
now is nothing. I'll see anyone who cares on the 8th April.
BAe146? + EASA
fantastic problems at so many levels, so the people that actually work
in this profession in the UK need to act now.
It may be on a smaller scale to start with but what will the end result be?
Hopefully retention of responsibilities, status and continued enhanced
safety to all those that fly.
We could ALL sit back and do nothing. Allowing ill-qualified EASA people to decide not just the fate of the L.A.E. but a big chunk of how airworthiness is controlled too - this would be most unwise.
When the ALAE formed, the threat to the L.A.E. was purely national right?
This threat is different because it is EASA led - although it will certainly suit some NAAs, no doubt about that! But, would the UK CAA give up their
scheme of charges to us THAT EASILY??!!£££££££
If ammendments to 2042/2003 are only at proposal stage then we
may have a chance to influence thinking. The worst any of us can do
now is nothing. I'll see anyone who cares on the 8th April.
BAe146? + EASA
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a shame the ALAE is not "open" for us unlicensed people to show our support for our licensed colleages.
There are many of us unlicensed people who are at various points along the way to a license (I have only a few modules remaining), so these issues will affect me and other unlicensed guys aswell.
Let's just hope we can get licensed before EASA decide to bin them or the last 2 years of study (and several thousand pounds) have all been a waste!
There are many of us unlicensed people who are at various points along the way to a license (I have only a few modules remaining), so these issues will affect me and other unlicensed guys aswell.
Let's just hope we can get licensed before EASA decide to bin them or the last 2 years of study (and several thousand pounds) have all been a waste!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PhilM,just had a look on the ALAE's web site and as I thought you can join.It is now open to everyone involved in aircraft maintenance.As it should be.There's a link on smudgethecat post if your intrested.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Balmullo,Scotland
Posts: 933
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BAe146s make me cry
I don't beleive for one minute this rumour is unfounded. EASA are having
fantastic problems at so many levels, so the people that actually work
in this profession in the UK need to act now.
It may be on a smaller scale to start with but what will the end result be?
Hopefully retention of responsibilities, status and continued enhanced
safety to all those that fly.
We could ALL sit back and do nothing. Allowing ill-qualified EASA people to decide not just the fate of the L.A.E. but a big chunk of how airworthiness is controlled too - this would be most unwise.
When the ALAE formed, the threat to the L.A.E. was purely national right?
This threat is different because it is EASA led - although it will certainly suit some NAAs, no doubt about that! But, would the UK CAA give up their
scheme of charges to us THAT EASILY??!!£££££££
If ammendments to 2042/2003 are only at proposal stage then we
may have a chance to influence thinking. The worst any of us can do
now is nothing. I'll see anyone who cares on the 8th April.
BAe146? + EASA
fantastic problems at so many levels, so the people that actually work
in this profession in the UK need to act now.
It may be on a smaller scale to start with but what will the end result be?
Hopefully retention of responsibilities, status and continued enhanced
safety to all those that fly.
We could ALL sit back and do nothing. Allowing ill-qualified EASA people to decide not just the fate of the L.A.E. but a big chunk of how airworthiness is controlled too - this would be most unwise.
When the ALAE formed, the threat to the L.A.E. was purely national right?
This threat is different because it is EASA led - although it will certainly suit some NAAs, no doubt about that! But, would the UK CAA give up their
scheme of charges to us THAT EASILY??!!£££££££
If ammendments to 2042/2003 are only at proposal stage then we
may have a chance to influence thinking. The worst any of us can do
now is nothing. I'll see anyone who cares on the 8th April.
BAe146? + EASA
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the Hangar & on the Line
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ALAE 1981 2006 AGM
Well maybe this Saturday will just be a listening exercise.
It would be interesting if Singapore's CAAS or Aussie's CASA
decide to alter their plans for their own SAR66 and CASR66
respectively.
Could EASA really be that good an example of international
co-operation & success???
I'll just offer my skills, effort & qualifications to a more worthy
NAA should I not like what is spelt out come Saturday PM.
BAa146 + EASA + maybe December???
It would be interesting if Singapore's CAAS or Aussie's CASA
decide to alter their plans for their own SAR66 and CASR66
respectively.
Could EASA really be that good an example of international
co-operation & success???
I'll just offer my skills, effort & qualifications to a more worthy
NAA should I not like what is spelt out come Saturday PM.
BAa146 + EASA + maybe December???