counting the pennies
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counting the pennies
O.K chaps its the main topic of conversation so lets get it out in the open.
MONEY!!!!!
We all know that some of the space jockies can earn over the £100,000 figure (I think this is criminal) but what do you really hand on heart think we should get.
reasons for your figures would also be appricated.
MONEY!!!!!
We all know that some of the space jockies can earn over the £100,000 figure (I think this is criminal) but what do you really hand on heart think we should get.
reasons for your figures would also be appricated.
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Nice can of worms to open !!!!
I work 12 hour shift as do most, days and nights I think it works out at about £18 an hour incl. shift allowance. I would like that raising to at least £22 and all pensionable. Based on holding 3 types !! License pay should be a legal requirement
First bid of £22 do I hear another ????
I work 12 hour shift as do most, days and nights I think it works out at about £18 an hour incl. shift allowance. I would like that raising to at least £22 and all pensionable. Based on holding 3 types !! License pay should be a legal requirement
First bid of £22 do I hear another ????
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With AMFA we are shooting for £27 ($40 Base wage). We are currently at £18, and if we catch up with inflation since our last contract, it will be £22. There are not enough of us for the current work, why do we need to go backwards? At worst we need to catch up with inflation.
The pilots have shown us that it is possible to pay decent wages without bankrupting the company, complaints from management to the contrary.
[This message has been edited by redtail (edited 29 September 2000).]
The pilots have shown us that it is possible to pay decent wages without bankrupting the company, complaints from management to the contrary.
[This message has been edited by redtail (edited 29 September 2000).]
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The postings so far show why we have such low pay! If they are aiming for 27 in the US we shold be aiming for 35. The US tax is lower as is the cost of living. If we start at 35 it will be knocked back to 30, if we start at 22 we will be knocked back to what we earn now.
A spotty FO with 200 hours walks in to 45K plus expenses. After 20 years as a LAE we generally wll take what ever is offered. MAEL & BA have always shafted LAEs & offered inticements to the mechanics so they will vote to accept the pay rise & because of the mech / LAE ratio the mechs get a pay rise & we geta pittance.
We need to stand apart from the mechs if we are to get what we are worth. There is a shortage of LAEs out there, so lets not forget that when we talk about wages.
Remember we have always been our own worst enemies!
A spotty FO with 200 hours walks in to 45K plus expenses. After 20 years as a LAE we generally wll take what ever is offered. MAEL & BA have always shafted LAEs & offered inticements to the mechanics so they will vote to accept the pay rise & because of the mech / LAE ratio the mechs get a pay rise & we geta pittance.
We need to stand apart from the mechs if we are to get what we are worth. There is a shortage of LAEs out there, so lets not forget that when we talk about wages.
Remember we have always been our own worst enemies!
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I believe that if a company is willing to pay an agency around 34 quid an hour, and the LAE gets about 30 of that, then, all else as it is, that is what the industry seems to think we are worth. If you contract and get that, why cannot the same be paid to the permanent employees. They can hardly say it will break the bank if they are paying an agency more than that, can they?
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When all else fails, read the manual!
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When all else fails, read the manual!
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How about £50,000
1/ The manslaughter charge that we have hanging over our heads,just in case for some reason it all went wrong must be worth £20,000. can`t sea the company taking the full blame i bet some of will be passed down. (just a side note do any countries in the world or airlines require their engineers to have liabilaty insurance?)
2/ the hours that we do and the shift paterns that you are put on should be worth £10,000.
3/ The amount of nasty cemicals that the manufactries force you to use when carring out basic maintance (RTV/paints/ oils and many more )£5,000
4/ the amount of CAA exams and type course that we have attended, in time must exceed the time spent for any student studying for a basic degree. another £15,000
perhaps you think more?
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Who said it was wiring?
1/ The manslaughter charge that we have hanging over our heads,just in case for some reason it all went wrong must be worth £20,000. can`t sea the company taking the full blame i bet some of will be passed down. (just a side note do any countries in the world or airlines require their engineers to have liabilaty insurance?)
2/ the hours that we do and the shift paterns that you are put on should be worth £10,000.
3/ The amount of nasty cemicals that the manufactries force you to use when carring out basic maintance (RTV/paints/ oils and many more )£5,000
4/ the amount of CAA exams and type course that we have attended, in time must exceed the time spent for any student studying for a basic degree. another £15,000
perhaps you think more?
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Who said it was wiring?
Cunning Artificer
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Let me introduce a simple economic concept. We each have different skills and training, so each aircraft engineer is unique to some extent. What each of us is worth (to ourselves) is the value of the next best alternative. Given your present qualifications, how much can you earn at the next best job you are qualified for?
If find you are worth more doing something else, then switch jobs. If you want more than the industry pays for your existing skills, think about studying for an extra or completely different qualification that enhances your value. In the late seventies, BA lost a lot of engineers to the local Mars Bar factory where their skills were worth more to Mars than they were to BA.
The pay we get is just what the employers find they have to pay to get exactly the right number of people to keep the aircraft moving and, this is the important part, not a single penny more. People are leaving the industry in ever increasing numbers. As employers find they cannot retain enough people to keep their aircraft moving they have two alternatives, pay more or lower the standards. So far the second choice has been favourite. When they can't get or keep the right people, they take what they can get. Have you checked out your subordinates lately? More facial hair and more prominent eyebrow ridges than usual? Exactly! It may be time to move on. If you choose to stay, don't sign for their work without checking it out thoroughly. Takes too long? Late departure (throws hands in air in horror) Tough! Unless we insist on standards, as our aircrew colleagues do, we have only ourselves to blame. Unfortunately a "Can-Do" attitude is needed for our job and we are psychologically incapable of saying "No" or "Sorry, No can-do chief" Its a macho thing, its in the genes and we can't help ourselves. Thats why we are engineers...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
If find you are worth more doing something else, then switch jobs. If you want more than the industry pays for your existing skills, think about studying for an extra or completely different qualification that enhances your value. In the late seventies, BA lost a lot of engineers to the local Mars Bar factory where their skills were worth more to Mars than they were to BA.
The pay we get is just what the employers find they have to pay to get exactly the right number of people to keep the aircraft moving and, this is the important part, not a single penny more. People are leaving the industry in ever increasing numbers. As employers find they cannot retain enough people to keep their aircraft moving they have two alternatives, pay more or lower the standards. So far the second choice has been favourite. When they can't get or keep the right people, they take what they can get. Have you checked out your subordinates lately? More facial hair and more prominent eyebrow ridges than usual? Exactly! It may be time to move on. If you choose to stay, don't sign for their work without checking it out thoroughly. Takes too long? Late departure (throws hands in air in horror) Tough! Unless we insist on standards, as our aircrew colleagues do, we have only ourselves to blame. Unfortunately a "Can-Do" attitude is needed for our job and we are psychologically incapable of saying "No" or "Sorry, No can-do chief" Its a macho thing, its in the genes and we can't help ourselves. Thats why we are engineers...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Whot_no_tug
Actually, as a not so spotty FO I had to take a major paycut when I started flying jets, compared to the wages I took as an LAE. The pay is comensurate with experience and I think you'll find there are no airlines that pay that sort of money to new starters.
Regds
Actually, as a not so spotty FO I had to take a major paycut when I started flying jets, compared to the wages I took as an LAE. The pay is comensurate with experience and I think you'll find there are no airlines that pay that sort of money to new starters.
Regds
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So far there has been a lot of talk and wishing about higher pay rates, but have any of you organized to achieve this goal? A union will try to get higher wages for you before the market forces will, but you need to have a union representing you or work in a shop that will top union wages in order to keep their workers from organizing. It isn't easy to get a union in, and then it takes PARTICIPATION to keep it representing your interests. Some folks would rather just grouse and gripe about their conditions and never make an effort to change anything. I happen to like fixing aircraft and troubleshooting snotty problems, so I would prefer to stay in the field, rather than head for greener pastures. Other professions pay better than ours currently does, and we should do something about that. As I implied before, I think it is wonderful that airlines can afford the wages they pay pilots, since this means they can afford to pay me similarly, once they warm up to the concept.
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Will have to agree with spanners, not many new FO's earn that kind of money.
A newly qualified cadet at 'the worlds least favourite airline' starts on around £25k and spends five years paying back £200 a month to the company for training.
IMHO mechs and technicians in a large airline earn pretty fair money but LAE's are paid a darn site less than their responsibilities say they should earn. Is it any wonder many new starters can't be bothered to get their licences!!
A newly qualified cadet at 'the worlds least favourite airline' starts on around £25k and spends five years paying back £200 a month to the company for training.
IMHO mechs and technicians in a large airline earn pretty fair money but LAE's are paid a darn site less than their responsibilities say they should earn. Is it any wonder many new starters can't be bothered to get their licences!!
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Heard the one about a large company that restructured a few years ago, offered licensed guys a vote (but did not give supervisors a vote)to change their job title to LAE. This would also include a small increase in pay but license pay would be scrapped, guess what? It got voted in! Consequently the new LAE's now earn about one third less than ex-supervisors doing the same job. More to the point, the new LAE's now moan about their pay but continue to take extra courses and cover for no extra money. This is what they voted to except! Sorry guys, but if you value yourselves less than your predecessors you're going to have to expect poor rewards. Only if we unite will we achieve.
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It appears to me that the only way to improve the situation is to Unite for the common goal.
Wouldn't the best way to acheive this be to Grossly increase the membership of a certain Association of like minded aircraft engineers and establish the mandate for change?
Firstly it would be easier to gain recognition and representation by joining an already well established organisation.
Secondly it would keep only those similarly qualified represented so as not to water down our cause !!
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[This message has been edited by IMA Conehead (edited 06 October 2000).]
Wouldn't the best way to acheive this be to Grossly increase the membership of a certain Association of like minded aircraft engineers and establish the mandate for change?
Firstly it would be easier to gain recognition and representation by joining an already well established organisation.
Secondly it would keep only those similarly qualified represented so as not to water down our cause !!
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[This message has been edited by IMA Conehead (edited 06 October 2000).]
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With reference to the last two posts, the restructuring vote was indeed carried because the vote included unlicenced technicians and offered them a £3000 a year pay rise for LIMITED CRS (RMA, BMA). They out-numbered full CRS people by 3-1.
Does anybody know what it would take to turn an "Association" into a "Union" or would an "Association" be within its rights to organise collective bargaining or industrial action ?
Which UK engineering outfits still pay licence money ?????
[This message has been edited by reracker (edited 06 October 2000).]
Does anybody know what it would take to turn an "Association" into a "Union" or would an "Association" be within its rights to organise collective bargaining or industrial action ?
Which UK engineering outfits still pay licence money ?????
[This message has been edited by reracker (edited 06 October 2000).]
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The ALAE represent BMA engineering at EMA, so if you have enough people in at your workplace there is no reason the ALAE can not represent you. Why not drop them a line at http://www.lae.mcmail.com
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come on we all know we are getting our pissers pulled. what we need is exposure and more exposure. also an association with real clout like BALPA , no offence intended at the ALAE but they seem toothless to me. How many other pros with lives in their hands (NO JOKE) would do the job on our pay rates. I love this job but sometimes think is it worth it considering what the outcome could be if I made a serious error. replies welcome