FLS/CAA
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
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I hear you "OldHand", but if you follow the general gripes aired in this forum you'll be aware that that what worries us younger men (I've only been in the business for 37 years so I'm still relatively inexperienced 
) is the continuing pressure to deliver aircraft in less and less time using fewer and fewer people. We KNOW that standards are falling and, being responsible people, we are worried about the situation. Even "Auntie" CAA is starting to show concern and they already published a discussion paper on the shortage of qualified engineers. Read it for yourself, it provides cold hard data in support of its conclusions.
As for poor old FLS, our opinions don't count for anything. The customers will decide their fate one way or the other.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 28 June 2000).]
) is the continuing pressure to deliver aircraft in less and less time using fewer and fewer people. We KNOW that standards are falling and, being responsible people, we are worried about the situation. Even "Auntie" CAA is starting to show concern and they already published a discussion paper on the shortage of qualified engineers. Read it for yourself, it provides cold hard data in support of its conclusions. As for poor old FLS, our opinions don't count for anything. The customers will decide their fate one way or the other.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 28 June 2000).]
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No I do not agree with old hand.Seems that 40 years experience has taught him little.
When a few groan,yes ,but in this case everyone I meet professionally,complains about them.They talk sweetly to airlines on targets but for the maintenance engineer they have been chipping away at standards since their beginnings.But they are just one of several worldwide that are the same.
When a few groan,yes ,but in this case everyone I meet professionally,complains about them.They talk sweetly to airlines on targets but for the maintenance engineer they have been chipping away at standards since their beginnings.But they are just one of several worldwide that are the same.
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Well said Bus 429
The comment of the CAA closeing fls is frightning, at the moment the UK is getting worried about the shortage of engineers, but two major hangers like FLS hold a lot of trained /qualified men put these in the market and I think pay talks won`t have the bite they have at the moment.
Do you think the CAA have the B*lls to remove their operation when at least 2 large operators would be very badly effected (maintance AOC for:- Airtours A320 and Easy jet 737 are in their hands.)I think not!!!
Growler, KP states that when he was working with you he was not a surporter of 25 min turnrounds, claims that there are sevral pages / items to be looked at in an arrival/departure check. BUS 429 did state to do it properly was knackering ,part of human factors maybe?
The comment of the CAA closeing fls is frightning, at the moment the UK is getting worried about the shortage of engineers, but two major hangers like FLS hold a lot of trained /qualified men put these in the market and I think pay talks won`t have the bite they have at the moment.
Do you think the CAA have the B*lls to remove their operation when at least 2 large operators would be very badly effected (maintance AOC for:- Airtours A320 and Easy jet 737 are in their hands.)I think not!!!
Growler, KP states that when he was working with you he was not a surporter of 25 min turnrounds, claims that there are sevral pages / items to be looked at in an arrival/departure check. BUS 429 did state to do it properly was knackering ,part of human factors maybe?
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Come, come now Mr S i don't think she deserves that. I would gladly work with her any day and dream of the day she gets her hands in my toolbox!!! We must do more to promote the industry to our sister aviation types (if only to have our tea made).
On the subject of our Stansted friends, the quality from them is not much better than the rubbish turned out by our trog friends at Cardiff. They are lucky at FLS as they have a constant stream of Ex RAF types who will bend over backwards to get approval courses and put up with anything to achieve them.
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"please report further"
[This message has been edited by Penn Doff (edited 29 June 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Penn Doff (edited 29 June 2000).]
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The nail was hit squarely on the head a couple of posts back. It is the relentless pressure for Charter Operators to make a profit(and why the hell not??) that puts companies like FLS in a spot. When the charter people operate ancient clapped out aircraft with the intensity that they do it is little wonder that some horrible cocks-up occur. I am not condoning those of course - as a former engineer and also a former pilot I have a very great personal interest in flight safety. I suspect that on a percentage factor, FLS may possibly be responsible for less foul ups (fouls-up ??) than many of the operations which appear to perform better. I have great confidence in the abilities of the engineering guys at FLS
(Ducks head and waits for the incoming !)
[This message has been edited by OldHand (edited 30 June 2000).]
[This message has been edited by OldHand (edited 30 June 2000).]
(Ducks head and waits for the incoming !)
[This message has been edited by OldHand (edited 30 June 2000).]
[This message has been edited by OldHand (edited 30 June 2000).]
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FF Cat - Yes there are inaccuracies in the thread but you must also remember that many of us have been customers with FLS for several years & seen a decline in the standards of service. At dozens of meeting we have been suggesting how to make checks run smoother yet no notice has been taken. Post C checks reports sent to FLS have never been acknowledged or responded to. Probably because the report of cock ups was the same as the previous C checks.
Lots of promises of improved service yet nothing in practise. I have seen 6 day C checks on A320s take 14 days! Who sets the time for the check? FLS not the customer. The staff on the floor do an excellent job, mostly, but they have never had any back up. Poor tooling, lack of the most basic spares, no projects or technical service back up.
The LAEs are inspectors, supervisors, progress chasers etc. It is little wonder mistakes happen.
You are obviously one of the survivors of the redundancies or the foreign nationals who have just joined FLS and believe as do most of the management that the customers is ripping off FLS. Before you start slagging off the customers look closer to home for the problem.
I hope FLS can do 9-day DC10 checks & the quality does not drop.
It is not hard to achieve. The old system of moving manpower from aircraft to aircraft dependant on which was the panic job never helped get an aircraft out of the door nor did the day shift finishing at 4 & nights starting at 9.
Everyone in this industry makes cock ups but FLS don’t seem to learn from theirs, it’s a pity we have to see the CAA move in before anything happens.
Lots of promises of improved service yet nothing in practise. I have seen 6 day C checks on A320s take 14 days! Who sets the time for the check? FLS not the customer. The staff on the floor do an excellent job, mostly, but they have never had any back up. Poor tooling, lack of the most basic spares, no projects or technical service back up.
The LAEs are inspectors, supervisors, progress chasers etc. It is little wonder mistakes happen.
You are obviously one of the survivors of the redundancies or the foreign nationals who have just joined FLS and believe as do most of the management that the customers is ripping off FLS. Before you start slagging off the customers look closer to home for the problem.
I hope FLS can do 9-day DC10 checks & the quality does not drop.
It is not hard to achieve. The old system of moving manpower from aircraft to aircraft dependant on which was the panic job never helped get an aircraft out of the door nor did the day shift finishing at 4 & nights starting at 9.
Everyone in this industry makes cock ups but FLS don’t seem to learn from theirs, it’s a pity we have to see the CAA move in before anything happens.
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The whole thing is getting just a little bit silly when people are judged by their e-mail address. On what grounds does aeroguru (now THERE is a totally unconvincing nickname) justify the comment that FF Cat probably doesn't know what he(or she) is talking about.
Now for Multi-X. Whilst I greatly respect the licence cover (higher than I ever had) there is a tendency for a 'them and us' attitude in the civil aircraft industry. Engineers on the hangar floor who actually produce the revenue for FLS probably feel that they get minimal support from their desk-bound colleagues. Conversely, even the most highly qualified and perceptive of engineers frequently prove beyond doubt that they are prone to making administrative mistakes such as mis-quoting a part number or demanding a part which is shown in the IPC as being NP (non-procurable) RF (reference only) or even just inventing a part number - yes I SWEAR that happens.
As regards the lack of spares, FLS engaged a team of 'consultants' who advised them that they should not actually stock spares but rely on their suppliers, going to prove that only aviation folks can actually run an aviation business. The lack of basic everyday spares is certainly a significant factor. How can anyone justify going AOG for the same spare three times in ten days??
Lastly for the moment, I find it hard to believe that the customers are ripping off FLS. I suspect that some of the contracts may have been drawn up by theorists with little or no experience of airplanes and the realities of operation come out to the detriment of FLS. I recall hearing somewhere that FLS have done a very good job with the BA Airbus fleet by the way.
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true happiness is a grounded DC10
Now for Multi-X. Whilst I greatly respect the licence cover (higher than I ever had) there is a tendency for a 'them and us' attitude in the civil aircraft industry. Engineers on the hangar floor who actually produce the revenue for FLS probably feel that they get minimal support from their desk-bound colleagues. Conversely, even the most highly qualified and perceptive of engineers frequently prove beyond doubt that they are prone to making administrative mistakes such as mis-quoting a part number or demanding a part which is shown in the IPC as being NP (non-procurable) RF (reference only) or even just inventing a part number - yes I SWEAR that happens.
As regards the lack of spares, FLS engaged a team of 'consultants' who advised them that they should not actually stock spares but rely on their suppliers, going to prove that only aviation folks can actually run an aviation business. The lack of basic everyday spares is certainly a significant factor. How can anyone justify going AOG for the same spare three times in ten days??
Lastly for the moment, I find it hard to believe that the customers are ripping off FLS. I suspect that some of the contracts may have been drawn up by theorists with little or no experience of airplanes and the realities of operation come out to the detriment of FLS. I recall hearing somewhere that FLS have done a very good job with the BA Airbus fleet by the way.
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true happiness is a grounded DC10
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Multi-X, I am sure that we actually know each other do you have an e.mail ?
Aeroguru, I have just read your profile. Do you really expect to be taken seriously? Why is a Talk21 adress more professional than a Hotmail address?
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true happiness is a grounded DC10
Aeroguru, I have just read your profile. Do you really expect to be taken seriously? Why is a Talk21 adress more professional than a Hotmail address?
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true happiness is a grounded DC10
Guest
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Old Hand - You seem to have misread my posting. I was not having a go at the LAEs at FLS & yes they did bring in consultants regarding spares. This was when they were doing 747 section 41 majors. With long inputs you can purchase spares as required for defects but FLS have been pushing the PMO sales bit- a one stop shop. Unfortunately their purchasing department is not up to the job & many consumables have very long lead times, this blows the no spares idea out of the water, delays the check & frustrates everyone.
email - [email protected]
[This message has been edited by Multi-X (edited 02 July 2000).]
email - [email protected]
[This message has been edited by Multi-X (edited 02 July 2000).]
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Old Hand.I never expect to be taken so seriously!Incidentally,train spotter?Get a life.And yes,I agree with eeryone,the hands on guys and gals at F.L.S are the bees knees.
The problem is their immediate superiors.
And their Q.A./ dept. has always had it's nuts squeezed.
The problem is their immediate superiors.
And their Q.A./ dept. has always had it's nuts squeezed.
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OK aeroguru, we call a truce?? lol!
Meant no offence just get so grubbed off when I feel that people are pontificating without knowing all of the facts!
FLS was a very good outfit and once the wrinkles are smoothed out, it will be again.
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true happiness is a grounded DC10
Meant no offence just get so grubbed off when I feel that people are pontificating without knowing all of the facts!
FLS was a very good outfit and once the wrinkles are smoothed out, it will be again.
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true happiness is a grounded DC10
Guest
Posts: n/a
formula 1 ??? do we get Mr Walker running round the hangar commentating - "Here comes store's 1 issuing spares to the wings, no he has spun and the cabin delivery stores person slips by in to pole posn!"
We get the same old story, communication is of the utmost importance. Good comms= good work, so we are still in the mushroom phase then.
Did the 9.75 day DC10 check mean the a/c flew defect free or did it have to stay on and have defects rectified?????? come on six smegma tell us the truth
We get the same old story, communication is of the utmost importance. Good comms= good work, so we are still in the mushroom phase then.
Did the 9.75 day DC10 check mean the a/c flew defect free or did it have to stay on and have defects rectified?????? come on six smegma tell us the truth
Guest
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With the trouble in fls recently it is wondered how Dublin will integrate into third party maint. as at one time it was owned and run by the national airline. A lot of Dub has not changed dramatically since then (except for the increasing pressure in the business all over etc.)With the "English situation" it will be interesting to see the impact in Dublin which still seems to be fairly stable.
Does "formula one" work?
is the question on many lips as it is only something heard from a distance by many interested parties.
Overall will Dub succeed on it's own and is "formula one" the way forward?
How big a success was it in Manchester and is it the way forward?
All interested parties opinions this way please.....................
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oops! i did it again or did I..........?
Does "formula one" work?
is the question on many lips as it is only something heard from a distance by many interested parties.
Overall will Dub succeed on it's own and is "formula one" the way forward?
How big a success was it in Manchester and is it the way forward?
All interested parties opinions this way please.....................
----------------------------------------
oops! i did it again or did I..........?
Guest
Posts: n/a
With the trouble in fls recently it is wondered how Dublin will integrate into third party maint. as at one time it was owned and run by the national airline. A lot of Dub has not changed dramatically since then (except for the increasing pressure in the business all over etc.)With the "English situation" it will be interesting to see the impact in Dublin which still seems to be fairly stable.
Does "formula one" work?
is the question on many lips as it is only something heard from a distance by many interested parties.
Overall will Dub succeed on it's own and is "formula one" the way forward?
How big a success was it in Manchester and is it the way forward?
All interested parties opinions this way please.....................
----------------------------------------
oops! i did it again or did I..........?
Does "formula one" work?
is the question on many lips as it is only something heard from a distance by many interested parties.
Overall will Dub succeed on it's own and is "formula one" the way forward?
How big a success was it in Manchester and is it the way forward?
All interested parties opinions this way please.....................
----------------------------------------
oops! i did it again or did I..........?
