Apathetic Engineers
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Apathetic Engineers
I have noticed a dearth of interest shown by Engineers in this particular bulletin board. Have we really all got nothing to say, or is everyone satisfied with their lot.
I always notice that the Aircrew part of the sight is always brimming over with interest and controversy. Is this just a sign that the Engineers, as usual, are content to sit back and do nothing about there plight in this industry. Its all very sad.
Come on guys, if nothing else have good bitch about our lot.
[ 26 August 2001: Message edited by: rover2701 ]
I always notice that the Aircrew part of the sight is always brimming over with interest and controversy. Is this just a sign that the Engineers, as usual, are content to sit back and do nothing about there plight in this industry. Its all very sad.
Come on guys, if nothing else have good bitch about our lot.
[ 26 August 2001: Message edited by: rover2701 ]
Have toolbox, will travel
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I agree, we are a sad lot. I used to be a lot more interested in this field. But times have changed and now its just a job to me. And not a very good one at times. But I still enjoy it somewhat. Or maybe I'm too dumb to find something else to do?
Am I the only one who feels that the bean counters and management have taken the fun out of what we do?
"DO MORE WITH LESS!" the bean counters cry!
And management says "The abuse will continue until morale improves"
And these are the days of our lives....
Am I the only one who feels that the bean counters and management have taken the fun out of what we do?
"DO MORE WITH LESS!" the bean counters cry!
And management says "The abuse will continue until morale improves"
And these are the days of our lives....
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Just about everyone I know on the maintenance side of aviation is totally racked off with it all.I was going to sit and compose a tirade against the bean counters, managers, bureaucrats, JAA/JAR/CAA,EXAMS,COURSES,Recurrency training,salaries, etc;etc; but I couldn't be bothered.No-one seems to contribute much to this board now.Don't see much from spannersatcx and the other regulars now.
Apathy rules ko?(as does dyslexia).
Apathy rules ko?(as does dyslexia).
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That's because I've been on summer holidays and just got back last night. There was no internet where I was (not that I looked, or the misses would let me anyway. I'm back now, trying to get me pc working properly again, getting there slowly. 
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I've not long been back from my hols too. Cyprus is lovely this time of the year and I did not want to come home! How about you Spanners, did you have a good break?
Back to the bulitin board. The bean counters have won. With emerging markets (fromer eastern Euroupe, China,etc) they reckon that in a few years, with the blessing of the FAA and JAA, all heavy maintenance will be done there as labour is so cheap. I say 'let them', and see how long it is before the prices go sky high and lack of quality starts to show through. Also, don't forget the escalating fuel costs of non revenue flights and HOTAC costs, they soon mount up. So when the bean counters re-do their sums, all of a sudden they realise that it is just the same price to maintain their aircraft as it is in Euroupe, but those facilities will have long gone and be too expensive to set up again. All that will be left is a lot of highly skilled, unemployed engineers sitting drawing the dole as we are 'too expensive to employ'. I say that it is time for civil war; let's get the bean counters first!
Back to the bulitin board. The bean counters have won. With emerging markets (fromer eastern Euroupe, China,etc) they reckon that in a few years, with the blessing of the FAA and JAA, all heavy maintenance will be done there as labour is so cheap. I say 'let them', and see how long it is before the prices go sky high and lack of quality starts to show through. Also, don't forget the escalating fuel costs of non revenue flights and HOTAC costs, they soon mount up. So when the bean counters re-do their sums, all of a sudden they realise that it is just the same price to maintain their aircraft as it is in Euroupe, but those facilities will have long gone and be too expensive to set up again. All that will be left is a lot of highly skilled, unemployed engineers sitting drawing the dole as we are 'too expensive to employ'. I say that it is time for civil war; let's get the bean counters first!
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JFD, I would have to agree with you with respect to your theory regarding heavy maint. disappearing abroad. BA have already done that with their 747/777 fleet in BAMC Cardiff & 737/airbus series fleets in Glasgow. OK it might not be China but the land & labour costs are far cheaper than at Heathrow & Gatwick.
Funny how the Beancounters didn't seem to worry to much about cost when BA built its new HQ 'Waterworld' with its indoor babbling brook running over the imported Spanish pebbles ( B&Q wasn't good enough ) & not forgetting the cafes, a little Waitrose food store, a newsagent, bank, a hairdresser, a library, art gallery and so on.
Our tight arse management can't even supply us with basic hand tools like a sodding 3/8" ratchet ring when mine gets pinched.
Funny how the Beancounters didn't seem to worry to much about cost when BA built its new HQ 'Waterworld' with its indoor babbling brook running over the imported Spanish pebbles ( B&Q wasn't good enough ) & not forgetting the cafes, a little Waitrose food store, a newsagent, bank, a hairdresser, a library, art gallery and so on.
Our tight arse management can't even supply us with basic hand tools like a sodding 3/8" ratchet ring when mine gets pinched.
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Rover et al,
The engineers and pilots forums on this site just seem to be crewroom chat writ large.
Go into an engineers crewroom and you will hear talk of football, sex, politics, shared hobbies and interests, beancounters, getting the job done, computers!, and a whole host of other topics that will never be raised in this forum.
Go within 50 yards of a pilots crewroom and you will hear the sound of a single spool low-ratio bypass turbine at ground idle. ie a lot of whining.....Duty hours, poor rates of pay!!, have to park my car with all the other plebs, not enough gold bars on my sleeve, 4 star hotels when others get 5, male stewards, crap co-pilots, crap captains, crap ops, allowances too low.
I know which crewroom I would rather be in.
4R
The engineers and pilots forums on this site just seem to be crewroom chat writ large.
Go into an engineers crewroom and you will hear talk of football, sex, politics, shared hobbies and interests, beancounters, getting the job done, computers!, and a whole host of other topics that will never be raised in this forum.
Go within 50 yards of a pilots crewroom and you will hear the sound of a single spool low-ratio bypass turbine at ground idle. ie a lot of whining.....Duty hours, poor rates of pay!!, have to park my car with all the other plebs, not enough gold bars on my sleeve, 4 star hotels when others get 5, male stewards, crap co-pilots, crap captains, crap ops, allowances too low.
I know which crewroom I would rather be in.
4R
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Ali and JFD,
I am not sure that I agree with you guys 100% on the subject that maintenance done in asia and the 3rd world countries will be sub-standard and just as expensive.
I think that the cheaper man-hour rate will result in a bottom line that is 30% TO 50% lower than todays western/european prices and due to less stringent working hour rules, it will be done faster aswell.
Looking at the standard of the work today coming out of Thai, SASCO and HaeCo, I canīt see much of a difference if you compare it to Ex. BA, Lufthansa or ASL Bremen. There are just as many Post check problems from these ,as from the afore mentioned. The reson for that, IMHO, is the level to which the induvidual "Mechanic" is specialized. It dosnīt do much for his/her pride in work, or his/her overall knowledge for that matter, but he is cheap, and most important of all, easy to replace.
History is also against us. If you look at car manufacturing for example, until Henry Ford came along cars where hand built, and then in the 70īs the manual labor was all but replaced by robots, all done to increase productivity and make the stock holders happy.
I hope just as much as you that history will prove me wrong, but sadly history tells us that where there is a dollar there is a way.
Brgds
Doc
I am not sure that I agree with you guys 100% on the subject that maintenance done in asia and the 3rd world countries will be sub-standard and just as expensive.
I think that the cheaper man-hour rate will result in a bottom line that is 30% TO 50% lower than todays western/european prices and due to less stringent working hour rules, it will be done faster aswell.
Looking at the standard of the work today coming out of Thai, SASCO and HaeCo, I canīt see much of a difference if you compare it to Ex. BA, Lufthansa or ASL Bremen. There are just as many Post check problems from these ,as from the afore mentioned. The reson for that, IMHO, is the level to which the induvidual "Mechanic" is specialized. It dosnīt do much for his/her pride in work, or his/her overall knowledge for that matter, but he is cheap, and most important of all, easy to replace.
History is also against us. If you look at car manufacturing for example, until Henry Ford came along cars where hand built, and then in the 70īs the manual labor was all but replaced by robots, all done to increase productivity and make the stock holders happy.
I hope just as much as you that history will prove me wrong, but sadly history tells us that where there is a dollar there is a way.
Brgds
Doc
On the working standards issue, a friend of mine is Chief Engineer for a small aircraft manufacturer.
Needing some fairly large sub-assemblies manufactured, he cast around and amongst other places got quotes from a firm in the Ukraine (an offshoot of Antonov I think). The quoted twice the man-hours to do the job than any British firm, but at 1/6 the hourly rate. Guess where the work went! So far as I know, he's still quite happy with the quality (and knowing him well, he won't accept second best anything).
G
Needing some fairly large sub-assemblies manufactured, he cast around and amongst other places got quotes from a firm in the Ukraine (an offshoot of Antonov I think). The quoted twice the man-hours to do the job than any British firm, but at 1/6 the hourly rate. Guess where the work went! So far as I know, he's still quite happy with the quality (and knowing him well, he won't accept second best anything).
G
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The way I see it is..the reason it's a shade "quiet" here is because you Engineers are so scandalously underpaid and unappreciated by the airlines that you're working all the hours God sends.., (given that if you didn't do your jobs people would die, Pilots would have no A/C to fly and the airlines would financially "crash and burn" without you!)
An opinion.
An opinion.
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I think it is a bit sad the way all this is turning out. Without any exaggeration i can honestly say i do not know of a single colleague who is still happy in their job as an aircraft engineer.
There is something seriously wrong when guys who have spent years of effort and money getting licences are looking for opportunities outside the industry.
We've been having a few conversations recently at work and the consensus opinion is that people want out! Not very positive i admit, but enough is enough and there's more to life than this.
There is something seriously wrong when guys who have spent years of effort and money getting licences are looking for opportunities outside the industry.
We've been having a few conversations recently at work and the consensus opinion is that people want out! Not very positive i admit, but enough is enough and there's more to life than this.
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I have read the preceding replies and it seems to me that there is something seriously wrong in the Engineering Departments of the airline industry. I hope that in renewing this thread that more engineers will take the opportuunity to add to it. Maybe then some of the Directors and Senior Managers of the companies, who I am reliably informed do visit this web site, will pay attention and see what the poor morale is doing to the industry.
As an aside I am a well qualified Licenced Engineer who has had enough. I have decided to make a clean break from the industry. I am now studying Law at University and wish all my old collegues Bon Chance. Attitudes have got to change before I would dream of coming back into it.
[ 11 September 2001: Message edited by: rover2701 ]
As an aside I am a well qualified Licenced Engineer who has had enough. I have decided to make a clean break from the industry. I am now studying Law at University and wish all my old collegues Bon Chance. Attitudes have got to change before I would dream of coming back into it.
[ 11 September 2001: Message edited by: rover2701 ]
