money

[wryly smiling]

Looking at forums for the autopilot minders and the cabin crew there seems to be alot of "discusion" about money,how do you feel about the amount you get as the people who sign the a/c serviceable

[Continuous Ignition]

I feel I'm horribly under paid!

I currently make about US $22.50 an hour, been with this company nearly 5 years and I'm the only staff Technician on the field. I don't have any support equiptment and even less in the way of parts.

I'm checked out on all three fleet types, wide and narrowbodys and do some sparky work when it comes up, yet I make less than our hangar guys who have dozens of others to help out when in a bind.

[Aerosexual]

This one is always a fire starter. As for myself, and this is my opinion only!!, I believe that in view of the responsibility that we as engineers have, we are well under-paided.
As for solutions to the problem, the only current solution I have be able to find is to get what you can out of an employer, and then move on to one that pays better.

Cheers

[DoctorA300]

We as engineers have only our selves to blame for our low wages. I you look at our airborne counterparts, they all stick together,even across companies etc., when it comes to pay, and no pilot would fly as a contractor for a company that is under strike threat from that companys own pilots. Mayby itīs time for engineers to stop bitching and start acting.
Brgds
Doc

[Techman]

I am with the Doctor on this one. The only way is to gang up on the employers, just like the airborne ones do.
At present, with qualified engineers in short supply, putting our tools on the ground should make our bosses realize our true value.

[wryly smiling]

I agree with you all about the responsibility against pay issue I just wondered if it was a worldwide feeling or just in UK.Where I am there are people sat behind desks in the support areas on more than the certifying engineer.

[Diablo]

Always a can of worms. If you followed the saga of Redtail and his colleuges, you will see it is such a long and drawn out process. They eventually managed to get a good chunk of what they wanted (and rightly deserved) but with the dawning of less labour intensive/more reliable aircraft, JAR66 A licence engineers and more lenient MEL's, any industrial action in order to score a pay rise is going to hurt big time before it starts to hurt the airlines.

The last big one I can remember was BA back in the late 80's early 90's and they were out for 2 weeks with not that many cancelled services (correct me if i'm wrong).

I am well published in the fact that we should all join the engineers equivelent to BALPA and at the moment the ALAE seems the only real option. A lot say it has no teeth but the more people join the better it will be able to fight our cause. Looking at AirMechs salary survey Ģ35k a year is a top end wage, it should be the norm for an LAME. I can't believe how companies are getting away with paying Ģ18k for a rotary A&C.

If we had ledgislation from the CAA that required a proper minimum level of LAME support for a number of aircraft then the poor sods that end up running 2 C checks on there own in the same hangar wouldn't be put in those positions. This would force up wages, allow good quality engineers to progress and earn what they are worth, not what the airlines think they can get away with paying them.

I'm not going to hold my breath though we always moan but nothing ever happens. But there is always a first time!

[spannersatcx]

with the dawning of less labour intensive/more reliable aircraft

show me I want to work on them.

[Penn Doff]

You already do my old mate, take the A340, thoroughly modern user friendly a/c

[cooltool]

Industrial action seems the only way to go.The Big Airways situation where "Management Engineers" were dragged from behind their desk to certify a/c would not happen again as JAR 66/145 requirements mean none of these guy's would be able to demonstrate valid approvals for the a/c types. Plus I don't think that the CAA need another captain hanging out the window senario (BAC1-11 incident)right now!

[DoctorA300]

Maybe the best way to drive up wages is not direct industrial action, but to start talking across borders. If we ALL stopped this ridiculous bikkering about whos license is worth more and so on, and utilize and embrase this JAR66 license so that we all hold the same qualifications we can start directly comparing salaries, and start working together from there. The end result can only be higher earnings, how much is up to us.
Brgd
Doc

[cooltool]

I agree with with the Doc on the solidarity issue but I'm afraid that there are always Engineers that would work IF any industrial action was taken.The percentage of pilots that would work in the same situation would be far lower. Most Airline & Maintenance companies know that we as a profession are not strong hence todays situation of difference in wages. Although I'm not keen on them a strong union like the pilots have is the only way to go. Modern aeroplanes are more reliable but they still need someone to certify them when they fall over the A licence mech can only sign for so much and cannot issue a CRS. MELs are not that generous when it relates to ETOPS a/c and nowadays the operators rely on that approval a lot as it affects many other things ie crewing hrs and sector times etc. As airlines get more a/c the only thing that limits them at the moment is not the number of flt crews it's only the number of qualified people available to look after them. Its not just LAME's that are thin on the ground most if not all compannies that support aircraft operations are desparately short of tech services staff. We hold the cards but we are not ready to use them.

[redtail]

I have to give my KLM counterparts in AMS a salute for having some rocks and being organized to improve their situation.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010728/l28238463_2.html

Just to remind you of what to shoot for, we're getting $33.49USD an hour for a five year line mechanic in the US, and $32.94USD for an overhaul mechanic, 40 hour work week.

You can get it if you really want it.

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: redtail ]

[FNQTech]

At the risk of upsetting the applecart, I have to ask "Have any of you actually been involved in protracted industrial action?" I was back in 1979. It took over 2 years for the pay increase achieved to make up the wages lost in achieving the increase (does that make sense?). I don't know about the rest of the engineering world, but I go to work for the money (paltry though it may be). I would be reluctant to take industrial action again unless the gain was substantially greater than the losses incurred.

[MacDoo]

Goodnight People (can't sleep)
looking at postings I can see that the money thing is an international snag for techies. If it's any comfort, the situation is no better over here in Paddy Land. The ALEA looks like a good plan, does anyone have a link to their website and are they a British only or international organisation?

[Blacksheep]

Actually diablo, the autopilot minders have finally given engineering a helping hand. In the past, careful use of the MEL enabled companies to hold out longer than engineers' slim bank balances. Those "lenient" MELs have recently become less lenient, at least under UK rules, at the insistence of the Operations types in the CAA, not the engineers. With MEL entries limited to 10 days, next time there is industrial action, the company involved will be less able to use the MEL to keep them flying.

But it is working conditions that interest me more than pay. Engineering and longevity are, it seems, incompatible, and its no use making loads of money if you don't live to enjoy it. The average engineer checks out in his sixties you know.

BTW wryly smiling, I drive a desk but over the years I've certified more work than you've had hot dinners. I get paid more than you because I'm more experienced, better qualified and worth more. So there!

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[cooltool]

I don't wish to appear millitant but by reading all the post here it is obvious why we never get anywhere. Most companies rely on the "Divide and Conquer" style of management because they know we never stick together. Its unfortunate that what makes us engineers in the first place also proves to be our downfall. We are all "Lets get the job done" and work our way around the problems. Also if truth be known we all enjoy chosen vocation. If you take a look at our european counterparts they all stick together and have Unions. They don't work on top of or out of the back of vans and enjoy on the most part good rest facilities. In this counrty some companies still expect engineers to furnish their crew rooms with what is found in skips or chucked out of the offices.In Europe they arrive at work in their civies and get changed in a locker room with shower areas that they can use before they go home.
Redtail used KLM as an example, they achieved something why not UK engineers !
By the way Blacksheep, the new time limits for items in the MEL's have been added because of the JAR OPS regs comming into force in or around september this year.

[KwikPhix]

Having been working as an unlicensed mechanic until recently I have to say that now I've managed to get my licence I am quite contented with my level of pay as a LAME. My company paid me exactly what it said it would pay me, when it said it would pay me as per my contract. They don't pay overtime though, not as if i would want to do it if they did.
As a side Question; does your company pay its unlicensed and licensed guys different rates for working shifts or unsociable hours.

[The Weasel]

FNQ Tech, you are right about not wanting to take action unless the gain outweighs the loss, but surely you must have heard this saying hundreds of times: 'If we worked to the procedures & manuals we would never get an aircraft out of the hangar'. Iv'e had that forced down my throat every time someone is trying to coax me to hurry the job along. So, all we have to do, is exactly what our company procedures demand, and our objective will be achieved. The added bonus is that we will be certifying a better standard of work, and possibly we will be command more respect from our managers, rather than at present, where some of us can be 'bought'with a promise of job & away and similar carrots designed to speed up the job by inducing a lowering of standards. Incredibly the term work to rule should be N/A to an industry so heavily reliant on compliance with procedures & manuals, but when this option was suggested to our union, the response was...'no chance, most people would not know what to do'. As loads of mechanics have just had procedural training to obtain LMA qualifications to beat the JAR 66 June deadline for the free-with-a-box-of- cornflakes A licence offer, now must surely be the best time to try this approach, before they all forget what they've been taught!

[avmech]

To add maybe somewhat to this discussion, it seems that after NWA technicians and their union the AMFA got a truly industry leading contract, AA and their union the TWU, were unable to leapfrog NWA. Even after having the trail blazed for them, they still returned an unsatisfactory agreement. They continue with b-scale wages and what they call SRP's as backshop support personnel at about $ 8.00 per hour less! The struggle is far from over here in the USA. One thing that we may be missing is the fact that the pilots are nearly all in one union of only pilots. Here in the US there are several industrial unions and one craft union representing various companies. What that boils down to, is that you can't get a group of ten guys to get a cup of coffee together, let alone stand up for proper wages and working conditions. No matter how any of you feel about what you are paid, do you think the pilots level of responsibility dictates a wage that is 2/3 to 4 times what the average technician/engineer is making? I didn't think so either!