Diesel
 

Anyone know of any attempts to install small diesel motors in light A/C in Dunnunda?

Don't know about Oz, but you might like to go here to get info on developments in the US:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/AST/GAP/

cheers :)

What did you have in mind, Vege?

A Lister in your lightie, Bukh in your Beech or a Toyota diesel in a Tobago?

I think it's Renault that is currently leading development of a cheap 3,000 hour throw away diesel donk for light aircraft.

Hmmm.. thinkin' of a Commer knocker for me Commanche that wake the buggahs up at night!

Diamond are doing diesels at the moment
 

On the cover AOPA JULY

I think from reading the article, he wants to fly it to Aust next year.


Dog

Thanx Dog cant seem to google up anything on the plane.

======================================
Aynayda Pizaqvick and Malexa Kriest
Awul Dasfilshabeda and Nowaynayda Zheet

You might like to check out the site http://www.smaengines.com .
These seem to be closest to full certification.

The diamond even has twin diesels...


http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/prod.htm

Dog

Ah, Vege, just curious but what is this:

"Aynayda Pizaqvick and Malexa Kriest
Awul Dasfilshabeda and Nowaynayda Zheet"

A new language from your homeland, perhaps? Or something you picked up from a pi$$ed Chimbu?

I did read an article once on a kiwi Ag company running diesel in their flecher's (turbine I suspect), I used to run jet a1 in my landcruiser and it ran beautifully. Can't wait to see the new range of lycoming/continental replacment diesels an the market, no more maggy troubles!.

Diesels have been used with good sucess for tens of years in model aircraft. They are known for their high output for weight, which is great, and their incredibly high fuel usage, probably due to the fact they are 2 strokes.

Yup, 2 stroke diesels that pull more than 10,000 rpm.

I might put me hand up and see if they want one flight tested in a very harsh Australian enviroment. If it can last the distance doing my work it should be certified.(and I get a couple of thousand hours free):D :)

I just wanna see someone shoehorn two of those 18-litre 650HP turbo-charged Cummins diesel truck engines into a Cessna 310 and see how it goes! (Don't do it Wiz, mate, I'm only kiddin'!)

Diesel is obvious...you run AVTUR in 'em. All sprog wannabes can log it as kerosene time :D
Ran an old Golf once on fuel drains for ages.

Torres thats a gag about London airport announcements...anyone help with a URL?

Vege. OK. I remember that gag now.

A word of warning if you run Jet A1 in a normal diesel engine. Jet A1 is very "dry" in lubricants due to the refining process. You will need to add at least a liter of oil per 30 liters of Jet A1. Conversely, I find using Jet A1 in a workshop cleaner far better than kero or diesel as it doesn't leave an oily residue.

And on a similar subject, if you run an engine that required "power kerosene" (e.g. in tractors etc), power kero is 3/4 lighting kero plus 1/4 super grade leaded gasoline.

Smelly diesel's
 

Throttle monkey,
Some of the PT6 range can be run on dieso and some versions in the thrush come to mind. Hopefully the cocky's diesel has been filtered for gunge, dust, cockroaches, little bugs, water and all the other stuff that comes out of tractor filters when the engine stops......

Critical mass,

Wanna see the pictures of a GM 6V53 in a Pawnee?????


Torres,

50 - 50 Dieso and Jet A runs very well in the Datto 720.

Syd

The first PT6 ag version was the PT6A-34AG, designed to run on almost any liquid fuel that would burn - avgas/mogas, diesel, kero!

I think there was a later, more powerful version as the PT6A- 45AG. the -45 was a commercial variant of the -41/-42 and was installed in a few aircraft, the Shorts SD3-30 comes to mind.

You sure of your facts torres as I would have thought the -11 and -15 as found in the AT 402 would have preceded the -34 by a fair margin.

The AG designator refers only to the air filtration system fitted for Agricultural operations otherwise a -34 as fitted to an AT502 is identical to that fitted to a Bandit etc and as for running on Avgas, well yes you can but only for 150hrs between overhauls however diesel is fine..... older stuff caused sulphidation problems but diesel now has a reduced sulphur content which cured the problem and is cosiderably cheaper!

Other than that your probably right:D

Oh yeah BTW we have had the -65AG of 1250shp for a while now .

-11 or -15 - I would have thought they were museum pieces by now! :D

And a -67AG - now that would have real grunt!

Yup, 150 hours only on avgas between overhauls. But 50 liters of avgas per week works better than Prist to keep the bugs at bay!:D

No s#it , I've never heard that one but nore have we had bug problems in ag' (no pun intended ). BTW how far Nth are you as I'll be with Harris late August for CIR reissue.

Goin back a ways now but remember putting prist in Lear for anti ice is this right?

syd_rapac not sure what a GM 6V53 is but ive got a pic here (not scanned yet) of a super brave with -15 in it.

Vege. Prist would be used as a fuel additive in the Lear. Prist was also used in the Citation II P2-RDZ.

Prist was Ethylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether (EGMME), a carcinogenic. It now consists of diethylene glycol monomethyl ether (DEGMME). The primary purpose of this chemical is to prevent freezing of water in the fuel system of aircraft.

EGMME was the original additive used in jet fuel since the 1960’s when it was invented by the USAF and Phillips Petroleum. The military has been using the less hazardous and higher flash point DEGMME for over a decade now. In approximately 1994, the civilian ASTM specification was changed to DEGMME, as was the military specification to MIL-I-85470. Prist additive complies with the newer MIL-DTL-85470B specification. Both were and are mixed at .10 to .15% volume in Jet-A turbine fuel and aviation gasoline. DEGMME serves the exact same purpose of preventing icing of suspended water in jet fuel at altitude as did the previous EGMME product.

Prior to 1994, Prist additive specified ethylene glycol monomethyl ether (EGMME), certified as a pesticide with the EPA and Prist additive was advertised to retard growth of microbes in aviation fuels. The correct term is microbiostat, not microbiocide (-stat means it controls or retards growth, -cide means it kills microbes). With all of the new EPA requirements, it became economically prohibitive to certify the new DEGMME based additive as a pesticide. Summarizing the above, it is widely believed that DEGMME does have a retarding effect on microbial growth, however this is no longer an officially claim property for the Prist additive.

http://www.csdinc.org/prist/faq2.html#Q2

For non pressurised turbine aircraft operating at warmer ambient temps, a few liters of Avgas per week acts as a biocide and keeps the bugs at bay. At the Pratt's formula (of max 150 hours on Avgas per overhaul period) the effect on the engine would be negligable. But you didn't get that from me!!!

A trap for Cessna 208B Grand Caravan (PT6A-114A) operators: The US Flight Manual mandates the use of Prist and prohibits the use of Avgas. This Cessna 208 Caravan's Australian Flight Manual which does not require Prist and permits the use of Avgas for 150 hours in the PT6A-114 engine. Same engine - different rules.

airag. Check your PPRuNe email. Give my regards to Harris and my old mate KH if he's still there.

Well thanks for jogging me memory Torres.
Was using that stuff in the 70's so musta been carcenogenic huh?
Me kids all turn out ok but , 2 hands, 2 feet, 2 heads.
I would like to know where and when this diesel plane is going to be in Auss.
Would also like a cost of one of these things not much on the web.?

Throttlemonkey, a 6v53 is a small V6 two stroke deisel engine produced by general Motors co and sold under the name of Detoit. it was mostly used as a small truck engine and a marine engine for use in small to medium sized work boats. they were (from memory) about 180 HP. they were a pretty inefficiant, noisy, dirty, smelly little bugga that had the nickname of birdscarers due to all the racket they produced. Highly unlikely they would be used for aviation as they weighed in at about 700kg for the basic motor without accesories and were far too unreliable and had a very low run without major repairs being required.they also produced a few veriants that were half decent engines, like the 6V71 and the 6V92. the 8V and 12V series were a much improved motor but still had the problems of fuel inefficientcy (is that a word?) and monster amounts of noise.

Reminds me of the noisy bloody 65 KVA 6 cylinder Lister generator behind the old Talair office in Goroka.

50% of the fuel burn produced the noise.
30% of the fuel burn produced smokey exhaust
20% of the fuel burn produced ergs - on a good day!

Sounds like the drill rigs here with two Gemmies running compressors, the boys call 'em Converters....... convert diesel to noise !!

Yup, that would be them.:)

Hey Torres

How are you going to sail your boat when you have taken the diesel donk out to power a lightie?;)

Gemmies ??
Had one of them 6V53N I think in a 34 footer, me mate and I had as lads.

Never put a spanner on it.

Converting fuel to noise, yup and virgins to whatever they become afterwards.:D

That garump sound followed by the clatter at idle that shattered the silence in the local mooring when firing up at first light in the morning was quite satisfying. Got every one else going too.
If that didn't get em going, the howling as we pushed out to sea for a days fishing did.:D "Bluddy Hoons" could be heard echoing in our wake.

Funny that's what "I" say nowadays.

Diverging. The Yanmah diesel in the yacht was 8.5 horse power (I suspect more like Shetland Ponies!) and weighed 80kg. Ah, but the fuel flow! 0.85 of a litre at full throttle!

On that basis a 100 HP diesel donk for a Cessna 150 would weigh 960 KG and burn 10 litres per hour.............

:)

Diesels,hmm maybe you guys should stick to flying:D A little folklor for Y'all take the 6V53 in laymans terms that is a V6 with a capacity of 53 cubic inches per cylinder. Have seen upto 16v149 in diesel gen sets and haulpaks. 2 stoke technology dated back to WW2. Most truck motors were either 6 or 8V or N (Normal or staight) 53 ,71 or 92's supercharged all and some with turboes using a "T"suffix. Power varied from 180hp to 500hp although you could fit huge squirters and pull out in excess of 900hp. These two strokes were ULTRA reliable and you can get parts for em in any post office in the country along with the points for a 186holden Most applications in trucks would easily see 1000000km between rebuilds( thats about three years of solid linehaul 24 7 52 weeks a year. roughly about 15000hrs in service) Sweetest sound ever to hear a freshly rebuilt 92 purr into life. Almost as good as a Pratt powered Ag-cat taking off on a crisp winter dawn. Will be phased out due to emission laws in favour of 4stroke technology series 60's. Which is where they fit in with lycoming. Understand Detroit is supplying the ECU and unit injectors for the jet-a burner. Not sure what size engine or if they will be using 2stroke technology with a turbo and a supercharger or a more conventional 4stroke(now if I could work out how to use the jacobs brake in fine pitch on descent then that would give the latte set something to whinge about.)

As for the bugs, they actualy live in the water and feed off the fuel. What causes the problems is when the mo#@*&ls die they block the filters.(understand this is what happened to the B200 that crashed off the end of 16 at YSSY in the eighties) Another problem when using diesel is the tendancy to turn into a block of wax approaching FZL from the high parafin levels. Not good for use in the FLs:)

Detroit also make Allison turbines.

Well I never had a real good run out of em and we operated two 71s and four 92 silvers......and all through my time as a fitter I repaired em on boats, gen sets, trucks, pumps and compresors.
they all had a quirk or two but mainly suffered from people not operating them the way they enjoy being operated...flat out.
they also had this nasty habit of wearing the liner mounting points to an out of limit condition and then needed boring and line boring to make the blocks reusable.
you can run the big squirts in em no doubt at all, but this tended to make em blow heaps of black smoke and wash the bores, then needing a ring set pretty damn promptly.
we had a 16v92 in a W series kenny for a while and it would pull the titanic up, but you had to pay for it later down the line.
Now the series sixtys were a whole differant story.....what a magnificent engine.......never put a spanner on the four we ran and regularly had 1million Ks out of them.
OOOOOOOH boy, Im glad I dont do that stuff no more. (well no where as much any way):D

Wiz, I know what you mean. Those squirters were only for racing applications and marinized applications. "Drive 'em like you hate 'em" :D

By the way you did mean a 6V didn't you, otherwise you would have bonnnet something like an autocar:D

Wilsch Airmotive are taking orders for their 160hp four cylinder
diesel engine but you won't get delivery until late 2003.
It's a blown and turbocharged two-stroke running on jet A1.Price around Au$43000
More details WWW.Wilksch.com

tengah lovely, thanks for that old chap.

Wilsch Airmotive are taking orders for their 160hp four cylinder
diesel engine but you won't get delivery until late 2003.
It's a blown and turbocharged two-stroke running on jet A1.Price around Au$43000
More details WWW.Wilksch.com

capt vegemite
although its mad e in the uk the designer is an aussie

Chlamydia Resinae is one of the little bugs that like to live in hyrdocarbon fuels, I have occasionally heaved a plug of it outta the fuel-filter on my Diesel Toyota Troopy.

How about using centrifugal oil-purifiers like they use on ships to remove crud, Chlamydia, water etc from fuel? As for the problem with freezing levels, why not either heat the tanks or use a lower-temp blend (e.g. Alpine-blend) which I understand is regularly used in the Snowy in winter.

Would love a little diesel for the microlight but the power-weight ratio of the Rotax 582 is very hard to argue with. :)