2 Aircraft Collide @ Darwin
 

Awaiting details please

Midday ABC Radio news, advised that a pilot hand swung the prop to start 'his' aircraft, which had 3 children on board. The engine started and the aircraft 'took off' with the pilot running along side.

It clipped a 'metro 10' and a cessna and got airborne before hitting another aircraft and coming to rest.

One child has a suspected broken collarbone, no other injuries reported.

would have been exciting to watch!!!:eek:

It seems our favourite sky pilot has had a serious lapse in judgement.
Wayward C182 has clipped as yet unidentified 402 then HA's Metro2(3?).

As yet not seen but sounds expensive.

A lucky if not acceptable outcome, thankfully.

the good 'ol no hand brake trick :eek:

WHAT a mess......

The 206 certianly looks very sick with the outboard 2m of wing dangling in the breeze...

The 182 must be a write off...

The Metro II ???

Lets just be thankful there were no fatalities.


Brings back memories of Crash Test Dummy on Bathurst Island years ago in his C210...

HA whats the chance of a photo or two with a description of the trail of destruction

Any more information appreciated....

What.. no offense to the moron, MORON would hand swing a aeroplane with 3 kids in the back?!

Lifeguard to the gene pool!

Dog

Wait till the children's mother gets hold of the poor bugga.

They just never ever learn do they.

Dogimed, good one :D :rolleyes:

Why is it that all this year's finalists for the Darwin Award all come from....DARWIN??

First we had the drongo with the snake, then the sod that got his wad caught in a ring spanner...now the 'let's put the kids in orbit trick.

Must be something in the water.

Twas hardly Metro .
I know its hard to keep the kids entertained during school hols but buggah me.
Kids banged up but all ok.

http://www.thinktag.com/thinktag/arc...gar/idiot2.jpg

Hmmm....Traffic it couldnt be the twonk got his winky stuck in a ring spanner could it?:eek:

Geez,
You leave the place for a couple of weeks and the fun starts without you. Hope the kids are OK. Still, adds some spice to the dry season.:)

From ABC On Line, 16/7/2002

insert rant here.....
 

Another total waste of $$$

And you know what, not all of the blame goes to the pilot. I really have to ask… How many of you Commercial (not to mention Private) pilots have had any training at all regarding hand starts? Was it mentioned at your flying school as an acceptable method of starting an aircraft? Did they mention that it should only really be conducted with two people? Did they suggest that you might ask any engineer or other pilot to give a helping hand before resorting to this method?

No?

And what about technique? Before I moved to Darwin I had never even heard of chocks. At my flying school (and all of the surrounding ones) chocks weren’t even mentioned in the training, let alone used. How much throttle do you really need to get the aircraft going? What about compression strokes before a live “swing”, are they required, and if so, how many?

The truth is that this is barely touched on in most pilots training. When it is it’s usually in a passing reference while studying private or commercial theory and almost never shown in any practical sense. Most GA pilots I know in Darwin won’t do it. Why not? It can be done safely, in fact several popular makes of aircraft had optional electrical systems making any starter motor irrelevant. The reason has to be either poor or non existent education.

The training provided regarding hand starts and the general ground operation if aircraft in Australia is quite pitiful. There have been several recent occasions of hand starts that have led to catastrophe including the fiasco in Adelaide and now this occurrence in Darwin. Other ground handling accidents such as the bloke at Redcliffe a few years ago that set fire to a twin (a Baron from memory) and his own car while trying to perform a jump start. Every day I see aircraft taxiing past my window at speeds that are totally ridiculous. (This by the way should be of major concern to all operators at the Northern GA at Darwin. If you saw where today’s accident took place, expect another soon if you don’t SLOW DOWN)

Realistically, for Commercial operations, hand starts should be included in your Ops Manual, and if they aren’t, make sure your pilots don’t do them. If they are, TRAIN THEM!!!!! CASA also has to pull its finger out. Firstly, include it into both the VFR Day syllabus and the National Competency Standards. Also, get flyers out to all PPL and higher pilots. Secondly, get a public education campaign going. There are obviously many people out there that don’t know enough about the safe ground operation of aircraft. Set up some guidelines, make some flyers and write some articles in flight safety.

This issue isn’t just a matter of saving $ when planes crash into each other on the ground, it is a matter of the personal safety of pilots, engineers and all others on the ramp. Today’s accident could have had tragic consequences.



(edited by me because of silly spelling mistakes.... I'll be back)

Hindsight says: Might've been cheaper, and certainly less traumatic for at least three involved, to have replaced the battery. :cool:

Strewth, Strewth :D
 

Of course I was trained in hand swinging props.

How else do you think I got my nickname??? :D

On the 5th and final swing. That's how ;)

credit where credit is due Hugh , you take the cake

:D :D :D

There used to be a product around called a "start stick" basically a small red battery that plugs into the external power supply port of the aircraft (most piper's have one it's an option on cessna's). The manufacturer claimed they have enough grunt to start a pt 6. Would have saved allot of heart ache in this case.

If it will start at a high throttle setting it will start at an idle but the fools just keep doing it thank god it hit something and didn't get airborne :(

Strewth,

I'm with Jarse.

During my time at the Space Base (Cesspit early to mid 80's) both as a student and an instructor, I was taught and later taught, the subtle art of hand swinging a prop.

It is purely by the grace of the deity (of your choice) that I don't have the same nick as Jarse! :D

Maybe he wanted to send his kids solo. (3 at a time, saves $$ ) :D :D

If you haven't been taught properly how to hand swing a prop along with ALL of the precautions, you should not be doing it.

To have children in the aircraft while attempting to hand swing defies belief.

I'm with you Strobes. It's a matter of common sence, not necessarily training.

During a hand start simple common sence dictates someone in the pilots seat, brakes on and chocks.

We've found our man!

This chap would surely be the front runner for the NAS implementation managers job.

Criteria;

-Do something that seems like a good idea at the time because someone told you so

-Don't have a clue what you're doing

-Don't ask anyone who does know how to do it

-Drag a few unsuspecting punters along for the ride

-Inflict havoc upon the industry

-Expend huge amounts of money doing it

-Run like hell when it all turns to 5h!t.


I think the last requirement will probably rule him out. News reports indicate he was running to catch up with the aircraft where as this job has traditionally required the incumbent to make haste in an opposite direction.

Why?
 

Forgive me please for wondering out loud, but why are we more worried about the method of handswinging than asking the question: Why are we handswinging in the first place?

Please don't take this as a personal slight on anyone, but as a general comment on the practice of this procedure.

Why are we trying to get airborne in an arguably/possibly unserviceable aeroplane? How do we know that getting the engine started will result in a serviceable aircraft?

Why was the battery unable to do the job? Was the Master left on, is there a fault with the starter motor or engine that lead to battery discharge during start attempts, is the alternator failed, is the battery failed, are the wires and connectors corroded, frayed or broken, if we get this thing airborne and then have an alternator failed will the battery provide backup power for a reasonable time as expected.

Why on a busy aerodrome surrounded by maintenance organisations would we need to resort to handswinging. Could not the battery be recharged and voltages checked to ensure the problem is solved. Could not we borrow a battery or power cart to save the need to handswing, or at least find a qualified person to help?

Sorry to sound like a safety magazine, but maybe if we paid more attention to them we wouldn't get so many repeats of previous accidents. I recall the Cessna getting briefly airborne at Tamworth a few years ago.

Tin helmet on.

Just don't forget this fella has been flying up here for years and years and years incident free. Why he did what he did???????? but accidents do happen thats why we have insurance, fine might not have been the most intelligent manouvre in the world and yes hindsight is a wonderful thing. Lets face who hasn't done something amazingly stupid in their life...

As for swinging props it is ESSENTIAL that you be trainned correctly, go now stop reading and check out your company ops manual, my geuss is that there is a section in there that prohibts you from hand swinging props.

On the other side it is a piece of p*ss and very safe to do if done correctly although it should be a last resort, yes the start stick is good but $$$ How many of you know how to start lets say a C210 with normal jumper leads??? Can you jump a 24V system from a 12V car battery??? What I am getting at is if you want to be a bush pilot go learn the skills that will get you out the poo with out ending up in the poo poo...

Look at history Crash Test Dummy on Bathurst Island - PLANE written off with a full throttle no chocks hand swing (and lucky to be alive), Adelaide early this year??? Now this???

The hardest hand swing i've ever done was a Bonanza that was hot... what a b*astard... p.s. Who knows if and how to handswing a Chief???

HA...

Hand propping?
 

Hand swinging was still being taught in the US on the PPL when I was there years ago, but nary a mention in Oz when I did it here. (Perhaps it was the instructor, I don't know, she was a pretty thourough sort of gal). Ironically all the failed starts I've had have been in Oz ... (faulty solenoids, a few flatties).

I was taught to chock as many wheels as possible with whatever you could lay your hands on (had to use a flight bag and my Jepps once). Always work behind the prop disc as much as possible (especially if your on your own) and never forget to set the brakes anyway. A few compression strokes with the mags off are helpful after priming, but it's done at idle throttle and you always treat the engine as if it were live anyway. Never been able to get a donk running at idle, usual minimum was 1/4-1/3.

Two people is always safer and better, but some times it's a luxury you don't have. I don't mind propping a 4 cyl if done safely, but a 6 ... I don't think safe even comes into it. So much harder to pass through the closer compression strokes and with all the extra effort required it's that much easier to fillet youself on the tarmac.

Coffee thanks! - having said all this I whole heartedly agree with you, just that sometimes the unexpected does happen (for whatever reason - misguided or otherwise) and those who don't know what they're doing always seem to make the news - a la Saratoga at YPPF a year or so ago.

High Alt - bug+ger of a job swinging a B58 and a Part, don't think I would even dare a 31! :D

"And hey . . . Let's be careful out there!" :)

Chill,

I'm with you, perhaps hand swing a four cylinder with a two bladed prop, but a six with three blades , no thanks!

Fortunately for me covered this in my training, with the key ingredients also being two people and plenty of chocks!

Is'nt there half a dozen charter companies and at least three maintenance hangars within walking distance of where this accident took place, all of which have battery carts. If your stuck in the middle of nowhere with no options improvise, but if you have access to facilities, walk the 50 metres and use them.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Thankfully no major physical injuries . HH.

PS: who is/was crash test dummy?

Two of us handswung a C402 once.

Lucky me, I was the pilot did the the inside jobs while a big, burly engineer did the hard work. :)

CTD:- A pilot up here years ago... trouble seemed to follow him...

Including one of my fav incidents over the years...

In a C210 10nm from Darwin flying a bloke over his property decided to show it to him real low but didn't realise he flew over a CASA inspectors house WHOOPS... oh and was on radar.....

Chill so from your post I take it that you are happy to hand swing a prop on your own? No-one in the aircraft?

Thank Gold for the Salvo's :(
 

Hope this year the Salvo's give generously to the John Hardy appeal. :eek: :eek:

Problem with hand starting a PA31 is that someone has to be in the cockpit to hold the starter switch in the start position so that the shower of sparks ignition will work. From memory they are not fitted with impulse mags. You would need to be a brave person to try hand swing one.

I just watched the news and had a thought.
The salvo's are my prefered charity. If this guy was using the salvo's aircraft for non Salvo's business does he pay for the privelidge. I expect and certainly hope so.

Yeah I remember seeing photos of the damage caused by the run-away saratoga(?)

Took out about 6 other ac, including one whose fuselage looked like a garlic roll all sliced up (bummer).

Carrying on with who has swung the biggest, what about the big-@ss radials which 4-5 guys would loop a piece of rope around and haul away (being a rotor head I can't remember ac type - old ww2 ?)

Um, was it an act of God??? If so the insurers may not have to pay!!! :D

JH shouldnt throw too many stones....

I can think of one good reason why schools probably don't teach hand swinging these days.

I N S U R A N C E!

What does the aircraft manufacturer's (in this case Cessna) handbook say?
Where does it appear in the current CASA day VFR syllabus?
How many flying schools actually have an approved procedure in their training syllabus?

The list is endless.

We've all done it and in most cases successfully and without incident because we took smart precautions such as wheel chocks, pilot at the controls etc. Sadly, for this poor sod he appeared to have neglected even the most basic considerations and I would like to be proved wrong but I'll bet, his insurance company is going to wipe their hands of him and he is going to be hung out to dry.

northern chique
 

Northern chique, are you still friends with John after your mishap. He shed a tear last night on channel 8, was that a tear for you. It,s sad to see a great person like john suffer another mishap, I feel for him. Maybe Stefan can pick up the extra work.

Just out of curiosity, what's the rego of the Metro that got 'bitten'?
I think I used to fly it.