NJS-717s ?
 

Wednesdays West Australian

Qantas cranks up overhaul

By Geoffrey Thomas



QANTAS Airways is close to unveiling a major rationalisation and upgrade of its QantasLink regional jet service, including those in WA.

QantasLink is made up of five separate entities, Southern Australia in Melbourne, Eastern Australia in Sydney, Sunstate in Brisbane, QantasLink in Perth and the Sydney-based Air Connex, which is the former Impulse Airlines.

Insiders at Qantas say the group is moving to just two basic operations - one for its 32 Dash 8 commuter turbo-props and the other for the Boeing 717 and BAe 146 jets.

In WA, National Jet Systems (NJS) operates five BAe 146 jets for QantasLink to destinations such as Port Hedland, Newman, Parrabadoo, Karratha and Kalgoorlie as well as another nine BAe 146s around Australia for QantasLink. NJS is the second biggest airline group in Australia with 46 jets and 1000 staff.

Qantas, however, is keen to replace the ageing 85-seat, four-engine BAe 146 jets with bigger 106-seat, twin-jet Boeing 717s, which have proved extremely economical and popular with passengers.

The airline inherited eight 717s when it bought Impulse Airlines a year ago and has just leased another six, worth $360 million at list prices, which are being delivered now, and it is negotiating with Boeing for another batch of 10, valued at $600 million.

When the six new 717s are delivered, QantasLink's fleet will top 76 aircraft. It operates 2500 flights a week and employs 2000 staff.

The drive to rationalise the operation is coming from the increased importance of combating Virgin Blue's lower cost structure as QantasLink pilots and crews are on similar wage structures to Virgin Blue's flight crews.

Sources at Qantas suggest it is likely NJS, which is owned by UK-based Cobham Group, will start operating 717s for QantasLink.

Qantas also plans to expand Cairns as a QantasLink destination with the launch of Australian Airlines in October this year from Cairns. This would provide a low-cost operation to bring tourists into Cairns and then on to other tourist destinations, such as Alice Springs and Tasmania.

In WA, Qantas has had a two-pronged approach using 156-seat Boeing 737s to major centres such as Kalgoorlie, Karratha and Broome under the Qantas banner and the QantasLink BAe 146s to smaller centres.

Under the rationalisation the 737 flights would continue and be expanded, while 717s would replace the BAe 146s.

We still need to watch out for some major changes in NJS. Cobham only want the coast watch, Qantas want fleet renewal and the new hangars are equipping for 737-800.

How long until we see Adelaide and Brisbane as third party maintanance facilaties for Qantas / Virgin Blue737's and our flgh crew group absorbed into "one Qantaslink" ?

:confused: :confused:

A little bit of discretion required here gentlemen, in house only please. Think about what is going on around you, before you cause distress in the other camps.

Insiders at Qantas have been saying that Impulse will operate the B717's in WA, and employ direct entry Captains and FO's from off the Bae146 to cope with the rapid expansion.

They want to keep the whole operation under the QantasLink operation, with everyone employed within the Qantas subsidiaries.

So let me get this right - rationalizing the Qlink network would involve introducing another type to one of the network players.

Sounds like the sort of folly QF are trying to move away from.

I thought people were saying that the 717 is unsuitable for the ops that the 146 are doing in the west.
Anyone out there actually know performance wise if the 717 can do the job?????

To the Impulse guys;

Please tell us what is the going rate for a 717 crew is these days?

Capt salary?

F/O salary?

The other rumour doing the rounds at the moment, in relation to this topic, is that NJS maintenance will be doing the 717 heavy maintenance.

Must say, agree with some of the posts above. Unless, of course, Impulse take over the NJS runs completely. After all, if you have a contractor, it's much easier to say 'thanks we don't need you any more' when the contract is about to expire than if they're directly employed by you.

flipside, I understand the B717 is somewhat restricted at some ports and over some routes, but it can haul a BAe146 load out of these ports and carry the goods over the distance required.

I am told the starting point for a practical B717 operation in Australian hot/high conditions is 1500M

I still have some DC9-30 charts and I know the B717 with the 'small' engine leaves the DC9-30 for dead.

Dlembe56,
regarding the ease of getting rid of contractors compared to those employed directly they do not seem to be having to much difficulty saying "see ya later" to 50 odd 1900 drivers (except for an exact date)

not so long ago, when rumours were flying thick and fast at NJS, the rumour re FR wanting to get rid of the "airline" side of things went around. A company newsletter came out in an attempt to stop some of the rumours that were going around including the one about FR wanting to sell the airline component. D.M. included her phone number - both office and mobile and made a request that if anyone heard any rumour to call her directly and find out what was really going on, rather than let things get blown out of proportion.
I like to think positively that our jobs are safe. I read the article yesterday and was quite excited at the prospect of us getting rid of those chemical bombs and getting something lovely, shiny and new like the 717's. But after reading the posts on this thread I don't feel quite so optimistic. I hope our jobs are safe and if we are "taken over" then the crews will go too.
Can anyone that REALLY know's anything comment on this development? When I say REALLY knows, I mean someone who has heard from the horses mouth, not from mere galley gossip.
I may take D.M. up on her offer and call her tomorrow and find out for myself.

CAPT146,

The current base pay rates for the B717 are :-

Captain $115,000
First Officer $69,000

Obviously there are add ons for check and training and the likes, and there are pay rises negotiated in their EBA which comes up for renewal in 3 years time.

Sorry Cart Tart, but when Impulse took over Southern's runs into Tasmania no-one was given the opportunity to stay and crew the brand new shiny planes. They were simply shifted elsewhere, in what can now be seen, with the benefit of hindsight, as a stop gap measure. The markings have now been painted on the tarmac in Canberra for the 717s and once again, no-one is being given the opportunity to go to Impulse. If Qantas treat its employees like this, what hope have the contractors got.

The whole QantasLink saga is a bit like a bomb going off... bits flying in all directions and nobody knows where/if they will land.

There will have to be a lot of give and take before it is all sorted out. At the end of the day I would expect there will be ONE QL pilot list which will include SS SA EA and IMP. Any new hires would be on the bottom of the list. It wont be a Y but some funny sort of W with a tail.

At the end of the day it will most likely cost QF more than it does now. There is already a great standoff between various engineering groups.

One can only guess what will happen to NJS, but it seems likely that as the aircraft leases expire they will not be renewed, unless somthing else comes out of the hat! Over the next 5 years most of the leases will expire and unless QF decide on another type (only one other on the list)it is certainly likely that the red tail 146's will fade away.

As for the places where the 717 may be limited, I think you will see the 737... eg BRM.

Oh for a crystal ball......:cool:

Who really knows what is going to happen, except Geoff Dixon and the QF Board?

The way they are going, my long term prediction is that the QF hierachy are planning to ease "Australian Airlines" along with its Impulse subsidiary back into the domestic scene with cheaper labour to cover costs for cheaper fares. How else would they be able to compete against Virgin who pay their pilots and FAs significantly less than QF employees and are expanding day by day? This will further reduce loads on QF while trying to compete in a discount market.

Ultimately, this will mean phasing out QF domestic all together and maybe some of the other subsidiaries where overheads (read pilot and flight attendant salaries) outway returns on operating costs.

The game has changed and cheap air fares are here to stay. If you pay your employees more than you get in return, then you are going to go broke.

Therefore, I would say that Australian Airlines, Impulse and even NJS would have a reasonable future because they don't plan to pay exorbidant wages like QF do at present.

Well that's my assessment as an "old" guy with over 40 years in the industry, where I have seen many changes since Reg Ansett bought out our other overseas airline Australian National Airways (many didn't know that it travelled overseas in support of Cathay and BPAC).

Any positive news from the Southern's 146 crews?

Has Qantaslink offered you anything? Best of luck finding a more considerate employer. There is a big wide world outside of "Qantas Land" and it's a lot more fun (and better managed it would seem).

AA;)

IMO NJS is here to stay. Its too big now over 200 pilots and 300 floght attendants. Its a big organisation and has made alot of money for QANTAS, QF managment like dealing with them as they have that "yes Sir", " whatever you say sir", nothing s to much trouble attitude( read bum licking). But who can knock them they are not perfect but who is. And as they like to point out they have never laid off anyone of in 12 years. Show me another "contractor" who can boast that. QF need them and they need QF.

I am very upset for the Southern guys but what could be done. The 146 operation was not cost effective (only 3 aircraft). All major maintenance was done by NJS and all the A/C were on NJS's AOC. I know SAA is a great organisation and everone there worked very hard to make it work, but lets be realistic it was only ever set up as insurance against NJS going bad. In the end it was simple economics that ended it all. Not so simple for all there great employees, the whole intergration thing has not been thought out at all from the personel point of view. IMO I still think that 90% of people will still be found work in the QFlink network. What the final picture will look like is anyones guess!

CAPT146,

You might want to research your info a bit better
" they have never laid off anyone in 12 years"

my sources told me to ask what happened to B.B., J.N., M.N., I could name a few more for you if you like :mad:

CAPT 146

SAA Aircraft were on SAA AOC and making money

Further more no one in QF can come up with any figures on paper as to the economics of the SAA shutdown.

It was a badly thought out, managed and possibly political exercise over which a few people should be sacked for the stress it has and is causing to the SAA staff.

Unfortunately I can't see a rosy future for NJS.

Why would Qantas create a second 717 operator when they are hell bent on making one Dash 8 operator.

It doesn't fit with their current delusion, sorry, business model.

Wing_Nut

Why do you talk down the value of pilots on the open market - QF pilots are not paid outrageous wages. They are paid a fair rate for the revenue returned by the aircraft types they fly and if you compare their rates with other international airlines then they look positively cheap. If you don't have pilot jobs with decent remuneration available in Australia then there will be a significant reduction in the number of young people prepared to risk investing $50,000+ in gaining the necessary qualifications to attain these jobs. Look at other high paying professions - do they have to fork out that much money to get their qualifications.

Back to the topic - Rationalisation of the QL operation is the only way to go as far as competing with the Virgin Blue operation. I only wish that management could look after their employees futures whilst they rationalise.

As Pimp daddy says, there will only be one Dash 8 operator and one 717 operator by 2004.
Unfortunately, and this is not a critisism or bagging of anyone, all 146 ops were put on runs that Qantas had no way of making money on using 737's, and as it has turned out the 146's don't make money either. They have been very economical for Qantas on these routes, but because of the routes they are on, the only "regional operations" that consistently made a profit up until the ansett collapse were Eastern and Sunstate.
The so called "regional manager" put in charge of the review of regional operations, has already been given the bullet from the project, for his appalling handling of the situation.
To keep Qantaslink going, as an overall profitable operation, some sort of rationalisation was needed, but the managers have a lot to answer for in the handling of it.

'How's it hangin', WAY WAY out mate! FACT 1. Airlink Nett profit for fiscal year ending 2000 24million AUD. FACT 2. First year Airlink exceeded the 1 million pax carried figure. Since then reliability dispatch figures have improved, last year better than QF 737 ( before new aircraft aquisition ) and always better than 717 fleet. NJS contract operation will be around a long time yet because it's leaner and certainly meaner.

Sorry to take the rose coloured glasses off the likes of 'The Baron',
but it seems that Impulse will be receiving extra 717's by the years end.From where i am sitting, currently working on new routes,it seems that the possibility of NJS operating the 717 are slim,and, i might add, the number of aircraft to be operated are quite impressive.

If Impulse get the extra 717s - and there are rumblings about a total fleet of 40 - then surely there'd be no reason why either SAA or NJS pilots shouldn't get a chance to fly them?

djembe56...I can see the mechanism that would give SAA chaps/chapesses some sort of right of passage onto the bottom of the Qlink 717 roster....but NJS? Well if they want to apply to Qlink 717...and if successful resign from NJS (smart move IMHO)....but otherwise?

Remember that Qlink 146 crews, a great bunch of guys/girls by the way, are employees of NJS....a contract service provider to QF.

Chuck.

Put me down sick,

You think those guys were laid off ?

How clever are you

emergencybus my dear friend,

under what do you class as laid off?

From my info, laid off means termination of employment?

If you are told to pack your things and escorted from the place of employment, wouldn't that count? Or if you are told that if you do not leave immediatly further action will be taken as was the case within the hagar, doesnt that count?

Get out from under the rock in which you hide and smell the roses.
;)

that is a rediculous comparison.

being terminated is a completely different scenario to being layed off due lack of work.
Any company that didn't have the unfortunate job of having to terminate some body during their time would either be extremely lucky or totally inefficient.

Before you start I don't know the circunstances of there termination and yes it may or may not have been fair but it is still miles away from being layed off.

djembe56
40 ? 40 ?
That is the first I have heard of 40!
If what you say becomes fact then I would say that almost all Impulse,SAA and NJS pilots would have a look in and NJS and SAA 146 skippers would most probably have a look at direct entry commands at Impulse.
Hopefully it comes to pass and nobody has to miss out.:)

mppgf,

40 is the figure doing the rounds at the moment. Of course that figure may have derived from the assumption that the NJS 146s will be replaced with 717s. The other whisper is that they're to replace some of the 737-300s.

I'm sure there are a lot of people out there with their fingers crossed (QF domestic excluded).

In all the to-ing and fro-ing here I think you guys have missed one important point, Qantas will give the 717s to whoever they please. As far as I am aware it is not up to Impulse who flies what, although reading some of the posts you would'nt know it.

It is amazing how arrogant some of the Impulse pilots have gotten in such a short time, keep it up and you'll qualify as a 400 LHP.
You may learn, over time, that QF don't give a s**t about you or any of the others ( eg. Southern ) the only thing that matters is the bottom line, and at the moment you are lucky enough to be deemed healthy toward that bottom line. ( so to, by the way, are NJS )

You know, it continues to amaze me how inconsidered and self-serving the personal philosophies of some members of our pilot fraternity, remain.
How does anyone from NJS feel a justifiable entitlement to automatic rights to B717 flying?

It was always reasonable for the "pre-Impulse, non-NJS" Qantaslink (turboprop fleet) employees to one-day expect some kind of improvement in their promotional opportunity lot, offered them by QF.
This is a fair expectation and perfectly nomal within the bounds of industry practice, locally and overseas and a frequent comment made by reasonably- objective industry observers.

Since the whimsical decision to purchase Impulse was undertaken by QF (rather than allowing the company to inevitably fail and resumption of the pieces - this is NOT a personal slant at Impulse, it could have been either Brand X or Y) plus the effects of the Ansett collapse, the Qantaslink regionals of SUN, SAA and EAA have been subjected to a gradual and obvious downgrading of conditions and expectations. QF have unashamedly displayed their opinion of the turboprop Regionals' in terms of disposability or insignificance in their "grand plan".

Southern operations were affected immediately by the Impulse decision: First it was the closure of Launceston base and transferral of staff to Canberra. Now, of course, the whole operation is to be disbanded into a completely different form in the name of administrative job efficiencies with no real solution offered to the disenfranchised flight crews.

In Eastern's case, to accommodate the sudden requirement for aircraft parking at Sydney, (due to mainline and Impulse expansion), Eastern exclusive parking has been progressively reduced at the main terminal from an original 12 bays to only 2. Parking has been moved to a remote and makeshift facility, reminiscent of GA days, distant from the main terminal and accessible only by bus.
Within the terminal area, all departures, - 000's of pax/day - are crammed through a single departure lounge with many pax forced to stand due lack of seating, while mainline departure lounges 1-17 lie idle for large periods of the day.

The detrimental effect on schedules, customer service, public perception, working conditions and obviously staff morale, has been significant. To rub salt into an already deep wound, an expectation from QF of a seamless sharing of these facilities with ex-Impulse staff, once their rival and the main contributor to their ills.A further insult came when the Eastern general manager, an excellent administrator and progressive individual, responsible for much of their former gains, was shifted to management of the newly owned Impulse.

And finally, despite record loadings and staff service beyond duty, all of this is coupled to the failure by QF to recognise identifiable productivity increases in the Dash 8-300 flying for Sunstate and Eastern - their refusal to award REASONABLE salary increases in recognition of work under difficult circumstances, during the current round of EBA negotiaions.

In summary, it's been a terrible 12 months for the Qantaslink Regionals and it becomes perfectly understandable, even to the most unpassioned individual, that talk of 717's to NJS is undeserved and inappropriate.

Yes - their staff are still employed, when others have lost jobs. Yes - they maintain a reasonable sense of job security during this uncertain time.
There is a certain sense of disbelief and obscenity, however, that against the backdrop of all of the above, another opportunity to further their careers and expectations, is again robbed by a contractor organisation - when the cost benefits to QF in doing so are minimal.

Ultra,
a very well written post.
However NJS employees are no less deserved of job security.

It is not NJS employees on here blowing there own trumpets it appears to be the new boys on the QF regional block.

I suspect all the NJS employees want is job security like everybody else.

There must be a reason that the other regionals were over looked for jets, maybe you should sit back and address that issue.

Finally do you remember were most of the NJS Captains came from??

Ultra,

Airlink is also a wholly owned Qantas subsidiary, they just don't own/lease their own aircraft.

My gut feeling is that Qantas entered into an agreement with Impulse because they saw the Ansett writing on the wall and wanted to position themselves for the future.

Perhaps if Gerry hadn't started Impulse Jets, your scenario of bigger and better for Eastern & Sunnies might have come true. Perhaps it wouldn't.

We all want bigger and better and seem to think that just because we work for company x, we deserve it. The reality is, IMO, that primarily Airlines are there to make money by serving the travelling pubic, not to give us shiny new machines and career opportunities such as big shiny new jets.

I agree that not to give employees some progression is not good for morale, but I've never believed that Sunstate or Eastern would get jets and I've observed both with various levels of interest for over 15 years. Perhaps the expectation of "some sort of improvement in promotional opportunity" was wishful rather than realistic.

Personally I don't think that any one group in the QF family has any more right to 717s than another, nor do they have less right.

I hope eventually all the guys that are employed by subsidaries of Qantas come to the realisation that bickering amongst yourselves only undermines your position (get together and make things better) do you really think pilots of the other organisations have any more control than you about what Qantas does with them. It is a concern to see pilots having a go at each other(and not just on this forum), when really we are not the decision makers

I'm with stupid
I think there is one word too many in your user name and it's not I'm or stupid!
I have read through the previous posts and cannot see where any Impulse crew have any made arrogant statements or made any statements as to who should be flying any new 717's.
Anyway, how do you know who works for Impulse ? This is an anonymous forum.As for blowing their own horns Balinda please show one example of this.
I know for a fact that most Impulse guys do not want to see any pilot in this country lose their job.They like most other normal people are aware that pilots are people and generalising about people based on who they work for is STUPID!
If NJS gets 717's then good on them.I, like a lot of other people cannot see it happening but it is Qantas's train set and as has been said before they will do what they want.
If NJS don't and this latest rumour of 40 actually happens then as I said in my last post I'm sure there would be direct entry commands for people who have jet command experience ie: NJS and SAA 146 skippers.Whatever happens the amount of flying that is being done is probably going to increase regardless of who is doing it so hopefully noone misses out.

mppgf, read your last paragraph again and then call an ambulance I think you shot yourself in the foot.

Excellent post, Ultra.

I fly for NJS and I would hope that the following comments would be backed up by the majority of pilots at NJS.

The first post in this thread was a reprint of an article written by Mr Geoffrey Thomas. Over here in the west, his articles are usually scoffed at when he writes of “rumours” about NJS. His articles, containing phrases like "insiders at Qantas report..." read like a gossip column. Sure we have the odd "dreamer" at NJS that salivates at the thought that such gossip might become a reality, but 99% just laugh it off.

The pilots at NJS know they are "just contractors" and we don't need to be reminded of the fact. We do however, have something in common with all Qantaslink pilots...we turn up to work and do the best job we can for our employer (which for us is still Qantas, though indirectly). As contractors we live with far more uncertainty than anyone else in the Qantaslink group, but that is just part of life at NJS. We do not have or expect “rights” to any flying or new equipment that may come along, we just strap on whatever is parked outside and do our best to deliver the product as requested.

NJS pilots are saddened buy the way the Southern pilots have been treated. Why? Because not only are they fellow pilots in the same industry, but the whole situation shows the lack of regard QF has for its own staff. If they can so easily shut down the Southern jet operation and not look after those displaced, what hope is there for any consideration for NJS staff? Clearly none.

Who knows how long NJS will remain a contractor? None of us at NJS know that’s for sure.

If you are one of the many Qantaslink pilots who likes to slang off at your fellow regional colleagues, it’s time you stopped jumping up and down about what you think you deserve in front of someone else. Qantas sure doesn’t care if you never get to fly a shiny 717. If they come your way, good luck to you. If they don’t, get off you’re a#se and apply to Virgin. In the meantime be thankful you have a job.