"Line-up" folks
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"Line-up" folks
As of 8 August, tower controllers will be making complete @r5e5 of themselves with a new conditional line-up phraseology.
To wit - "....(a/c type) on final, behind that aircraft line up BEHIND"
I can't wait for the readbacks.
To wit - "....(a/c type) on final, behind that aircraft line up BEHIND"
I can't wait for the readbacks.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Time to start living in the real world, Chief galah.
What`s the big deal? It works well everywhere else (with the inoccasional mis-identification of aircraft type, which is EASILY clarified by "confirm 74/76/73?"), the terminology usually being "clear to line up behind the ...... on short final."
No staggering intro, I`m afraid!!
AND lightens the workload for all of us!!
Kaptin M,
Please explain how this lightens the workload for all of us, (that's after the troops sit there, look at each other and say "what did he say??!!").
And what happened to the "Line Up and WAIT"???
Behind, I said, Behind Boy! Stay Back!! Behind....
Please explain how this lightens the workload for all of us, (that's after the troops sit there, look at each other and say "what did he say??!!").
And what happened to the "Line Up and WAIT"???
Behind, I said, Behind Boy! Stay Back!! Behind....
"Line up and wait" is a crock anyway.
Just "Line up" has never caused me any confusion, the "wait" is simply redundant. It's just legalistic arse-covering.
Perhaps they could say "Line up behind, wait, and don't even think about taking off until I say so, and when you do it's at your own risk..."
Just "Line up" has never caused me any confusion, the "wait" is simply redundant. It's just legalistic arse-covering.
Perhaps they could say "Line up behind, wait, and don't even think about taking off until I say so, and when you do it's at your own risk..."
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Galah
How appropriate.
Without this form of clearance, half the world outside of sleepy Oz, would not function. The alternative is to wait until the landing aircraft has passed the aircraft to line up. Time for the clearance + time for the acknowledgement+time to spool up and get the beast moving+time to taxi at an appropriate pace and get properly lined up (some aircraft you can't just poke up the power as you roll on, due to trucks off centre), all adds up and the guy at four miles is starting to get twitchy. At least with this clearance the PIC has the ability to anticipate and get moving quicker. Its all about flow control.
As the good Kaptain said, works well in the real world. How about you enter the time warp and catch up.
GG
How appropriate.
Without this form of clearance, half the world outside of sleepy Oz, would not function. The alternative is to wait until the landing aircraft has passed the aircraft to line up. Time for the clearance + time for the acknowledgement+time to spool up and get the beast moving+time to taxi at an appropriate pace and get properly lined up (some aircraft you can't just poke up the power as you roll on, due to trucks off centre), all adds up and the guy at four miles is starting to get twitchy. At least with this clearance the PIC has the ability to anticipate and get moving quicker. Its all about flow control.
As the good Kaptain said, works well in the real world. How about you enter the time warp and catch up.
GG
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Arm out the window
The "wait" is very necessary for some of our brothers for whom English is not their native tounge.
Think a bit more globally. We will all be the better for it.
GG
The "wait" is very necessary for some of our brothers for whom English is not their native tounge.
Think a bit more globally. We will all be the better for it.
GG
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
You may be right about the " behind the .... line up BEHIND", Icarus - it"s the terminology theuse here in the Land of the Rising sun. I thought it was their (further) bastardisation of the English language, however now that it has been highlighted here, I realise that it has more than likely been adopted from the worst English speakers, the Septics!!
However it DOES work well, and it reduces the workload, Bloggs by allowing the ATC'ers to issue the instruction and move their focus to other areas, and for the pilot - who has multiple tasks to accomplish once cleared to enter an active runway - to space these tasks out, hence giving more time at this important stage of the flight.
The concept is good, but agreed that the phraseology is cr@p in the form quoted!!
However it DOES work well, and it reduces the workload, Bloggs by allowing the ATC'ers to issue the instruction and move their focus to other areas, and for the pilot - who has multiple tasks to accomplish once cleared to enter an active runway - to space these tasks out, hence giving more time at this important stage of the flight.
The concept is good, but agreed that the phraseology is cr@p in the form quoted!!
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Ahh. Hit the wrong key. Hope this aint sent twice 
We in ATC have been using conditional clearances for a long time. We give a conditional clearance, the pilot is required to read that conditional clearance back, and we are required to get the conditional clearance readback!!
I really dont think adding an extra BEHIND to all that is gonna make a difference. The pilot understands or he/she dont. There are enough BEHINDs in aviation and Airservices as it is
When we use WAIT with a line up clearance, it can be used with less-than-perfect-english-speaking-pilots, but also used to more-perfect-english-speaking-pilots, and normally indicates you aint getting a rolling start, so if ya have back-tracked, dont spool up as ya spinning around at the end. Ya aint goin anywhere :-)
We in ATC have been using conditional clearances for a long time. We give a conditional clearance, the pilot is required to read that conditional clearance back, and we are required to get the conditional clearance readback!!
I really dont think adding an extra BEHIND to all that is gonna make a difference. The pilot understands or he/she dont. There are enough BEHINDs in aviation and Airservices as it is
When we use WAIT with a line up clearance, it can be used with less-than-perfect-english-speaking-pilots, but also used to more-perfect-english-speaking-pilots, and normally indicates you aint getting a rolling start, so if ya have back-tracked, dont spool up as ya spinning around at the end. Ya aint goin anywhere :-)
Dunno about that justification for 'wait', Guzzler; I would have thought that it's universally (well, worldly, at least) known and understood that you don't commence your takeoff roll until the magic words 'cleared for takeoff' are said.
Thanks for the philosophical guidance, but!
Thanks for the philosophical guidance, but!
Last edited by Arm out the window; 2nd Aug 2002 at 22:41.
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grange.guzzler
Hey man, "time warp"? something that happened in the seventies, perhaps. No need to be churlish, I'm just a mere messenger who is passing on a change that doesn't appear in the AIP amendment of 8/8, but is promulgated in an obsure NOTAM. Also the good "Kaptain" as you address him/her is actually "Kaptin"
However, one phrase I use if possible, for you big boys is "line up (slowly) expect to keep rolling" . Hopefully this filters thru that you won't have to apply excessive power or touch the brakes.
Kaptin M
"....ATC'ers to issue the instruction and move their focus to other areas..."
Part of our MATS requirements for conditional clearances will be to visually monitor the condition until it no longer applies. It would appear we won't be able focus on anything else if that's the case.
Cheers CG
Hey man, "time warp"? something that happened in the seventies, perhaps. No need to be churlish, I'm just a mere messenger who is passing on a change that doesn't appear in the AIP amendment of 8/8, but is promulgated in an obsure NOTAM. Also the good "Kaptain" as you address him/her is actually "Kaptin"
However, one phrase I use if possible, for you big boys is "line up (slowly) expect to keep rolling" . Hopefully this filters thru that you won't have to apply excessive power or touch the brakes.
Kaptin M
"....ATC'ers to issue the instruction and move their focus to other areas..."
Part of our MATS requirements for conditional clearances will be to visually monitor the condition until it no longer applies. It would appear we won't be able focus on anything else if that's the case.
Cheers CG
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Galah
Why not stick to "standard" and "published" phraseology.
If you had ever sat in a "non english" cockpit and witnessed the confusion generated by non standard phraseology, you would cease and desist instantly.
Every word that you use that is not in the book is a cause for confusion. Sad but a reality.
GG
Why not stick to "standard" and "published" phraseology.
If you had ever sat in a "non english" cockpit and witnessed the confusion generated by non standard phraseology, you would cease and desist instantly.
Every word that you use that is not in the book is a cause for confusion. Sad but a reality.
GG
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g.g
You are absolutely correct. Believe me, we have foreign gentlemen learning to fly passing thru our patch
a hundred times a day. Deviate from the "standard" means disaster - big time.
Even the "standard" is beyond them sometimes. But in a couple of months they probably will be sitting in the RH seat of something starting with "B". Hopefully the standard they receive now will help them later.
Don't take me too literally - the last thing I want is confusion, chaos, anachy, mayhem or public unrest.
CG
You are absolutely correct. Believe me, we have foreign gentlemen learning to fly passing thru our patch
a hundred times a day. Deviate from the "standard" means disaster - big time.
Even the "standard" is beyond them sometimes. But in a couple of months they probably will be sitting in the RH seat of something starting with "B". Hopefully the standard they receive now will help them later.
Don't take me too literally - the last thing I want is confusion, chaos, anachy, mayhem or public unrest.
CG
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Have a read of this report from the ATSB at
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=409
The safety action (the last para on the page) just about covers the rationale behind this change.
cheers
Disco
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=409
The safety action (the last para on the page) just about covers the rationale behind this change.
cheers
Disco
Thanks Disco Stu. Very helpful.
I don't feel saying "behind" twice would have helped in their situation though.
I still get cleared to line up (unconditionally) with one on short final occasionally. When I query it I can almost hear the shiver run down the ATCOs spine. Ultimately pilot beware.
Recently cleared in IMC below MSA and radar terrain in error. Queried it, no problems. The level would have had me ( and the paying passengers) 400' above the tree tops in cloud.
Best to remember:
Pilot makes mistake, pilot dies.
Engineer makes mistake, pilot dies.
ATC make mistake, pilot dies.
I think most pilots approach safety that way ?
And before any twits jump in, I have the highest respect for engineers and ATCOs and confess to making far more mistakes than them.
I don't feel saying "behind" twice would have helped in their situation though.
I still get cleared to line up (unconditionally) with one on short final occasionally. When I query it I can almost hear the shiver run down the ATCOs spine.
Ultimately pilot beware.Recently cleared in IMC below MSA and radar terrain in error. Queried it, no problems. The level would have had me ( and the paying passengers) 400' above the tree tops in cloud.
Best to remember:
Pilot makes mistake, pilot dies.
Engineer makes mistake, pilot dies.
ATC make mistake, pilot dies.
I think most pilots approach safety that way ?
And before any twits jump in, I have the highest respect for engineers and ATCOs and confess to making far more mistakes than them.