Sad end to the RNZAF
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[B]The up side
If you were in the army things would be looking decidedly better for the overseas posting.
No organic way of moving you to the 'dangerous peacekeeping' roles for which the modern NZ Army is so well equipped to handle (NOT).
Therefore you will have to live there, in the hope hostilities break out so you are first on the scene, (iaw NZ Govt policy for the South Pacific and special areas of interest).
The only drawback is that when hostilities do break out, you may not be able to defend yourself as your whistle will have lost its pea.
Now need rescuing by some friendly nation with a servicable Airforce.
Australians aren't soooo bad after all.
P.S We'll throw the cup in for free
Good luck to all the Boys and Girls in the RNZAF. it used to be such fun
If you were in the army things would be looking decidedly better for the overseas posting.
No organic way of moving you to the 'dangerous peacekeeping' roles for which the modern NZ Army is so well equipped to handle (NOT).
Therefore you will have to live there, in the hope hostilities break out so you are first on the scene, (iaw NZ Govt policy for the South Pacific and special areas of interest).
The only drawback is that when hostilities do break out, you may not be able to defend yourself as your whistle will have lost its pea.
Now need rescuing by some friendly nation with a servicable Airforce.
Australians aren't soooo bad after all.
P.S We'll throw the cup in for free
Good luck to all the Boys and Girls in the RNZAF. it used to be such fun
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Who would slam a plane into the world trade centre's?
hmmm....maybe the same peole who tried to blow it up several years before
and I don't seriously think Al Queda know where NZ is......
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Last year I heard a cadet I knew from the AAL joined the RNZAF and washed out of the fighter course to end up flying Hercs. When they announced the scrapping of the fighters I thought he was probably lucky to be flying Hercs. Now with unservicabilities etc he's probably lucky to be flying anything...
ps - if anyone has contacts within the RNZAF please email me, I'd like to get in contact with him. I learnt he was in the RNZAF 2nd hand through another ex-cadet at RAAF Pearse
ps - if anyone has contacts within the RNZAF please email me, I'd like to get in contact with him. I learnt he was in the RNZAF 2nd hand through another ex-cadet at RAAF Pearse
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What a tragedy. A very competent and professional group of military aviators become victims of a self rightous, morally corrupt, lying politician - sounds all too familiar. Lets not lose the track here, it doesn't matter a diddley squat whether she is female. Her actions in life and her habits condemn her. I have to remind criticalmass of the very many extremely good female politicians, some of whom could be classed as statespeople on the worlds stage. Lets not get locked into the Winnies and Hellens (sic) of the game. Remember Bill? Or perhaps that little Ozzie battler (lol) -actually liar and thief- Bob and his good mate Cheating. Oops nearly forgot nifty Nev. We blokes have little to boast about in the political arena. My sympathies to the RNZAF I have spent many a good hour in the air with them and many a good hour in post flight discussion liberally lubricated of course. Who cares who wins the cup it was an outstanding game played by two outstandingly courageous teams. Bring on the next game.
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Oops, got a bit carried away from my track. Must have been the red wine drift. I was going to go on and say that if she who must be obeyed had a strategic goal of saving money from air and maritime power to develop a credible land force then that would be understandable. Allowing for the availability of suitable aircraft from the civil register then the navy have a term STUFT, no not stuffed, but ships taken up from trade. Can anyone help me - is that where the ship heads - or is it just another political vote buying exercise where we give the money saved to left handed lesbian surfers and other worthy recipients.
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Premature Death Notice!
Don't be too quick to write the RNZAF off: http://defair/airforce the Long Term Development Plan released by the MoD includes : replacement of the 727, [sooner rather than later],mission systems upgrades for the P3, life extension programme for the Hercs [though I think the option to buy the"J" on the back of the RAAF order expires in November],replacement of the Iroquois, comms and nav updates for Herc/P3.
They've taken a hit with the loss of the Squawks and Maachi's, but man for man[and women of course, there is at least one female 727 Captain] they're still as good as anyone else, and better than most!
They've taken a hit with the loss of the Squawks and Maachi's, but man for man[and women of course, there is at least one female 727 Captain] they're still as good as anyone else, and better than most!
Last edited by Samuel; 18th Jul 2002 at 05:03.
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Dear Samuel, were you sitting in your office at HQ RNZAF when you sent that 'come on chaps things could always be worse' post. The point is that whatever dribble DEFAIR are putting out the RNZAF is now not even close to a balanced force and is merely a military transport flying organisation, not even tactical at that. They shoot horses don't they?
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Sir Shiraz just making the point that the most unlikely target is always the most effective.
You couldn't honestly tell me that pre Sep 11 you could see somebody flying a commercial airliner into the trade centres?
Just because NZ is far from anything (sorry) don't rule it out as potential target. I am freaked out that the countries above Australia could walk in and take over within a day.
Now that is a scary thought!
You couldn't honestly tell me that pre Sep 11 you could see somebody flying a commercial airliner into the trade centres?
Just because NZ is far from anything
(sorry) don't rule it out as potential target. I am freaked out that the countries above Australia could walk in and take over within a day. Now that is a scary thought!
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No Shortly, I wasn't, and I agree with your 'balanced' comment, but not with the suggestion that all is lost. It isn't, and it is unfair on the good people who are staying to suggest that it is! They would never accept that, nor would I expect them to. I was merely pointing out that much of the comment here is most definitely unbalanced because of a failure to separate out fact from fiction.
I have an intense dislike of all politicians, and I won't vote for Helen next week or any other week, but I believe she will still get in because she has bought too many tree-hugger and arty crafty votes.
I have an intense dislike of all politicians, and I won't vote for Helen next week or any other week, but I believe she will still get in because she has bought too many tree-hugger and arty crafty votes.
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ozbiggles, re your post on page 1, I had a similar experience (without the fisticuffs) back in the 60's when all things (anti)Vietnam were the flavour of the month with the mothers and fathers of today's 'land rights for ethnic refugee gay whales' push.
I was at a party on Sydney's upper North Shore where every male but me was sporting tresses about two feet long. My short back and sides led to my being assailed by an outspoken (aren't they all?) peace loving member of Awstraya's intelligentsia, who proceeded to tell me, after first calling me a baby killer, that if everyone refused to fight, there'd be no more war. I agreed with him, but pointed out that such utopian ideals tended to fall by the wayside when the other bloke didn't abide by them. He shot my argument full of holes with all sorts of erudite platitudes that would have gone down a treat in a Sydney Uni Arts Degree tute, so I hypothesised: I pointed to the fellow's attractive, kaftan-wearing wife who was only a few feet away, asking him what he'd do if a group of bikies crashed the party and began gang raping her.
"Oh, that's different." was his rather illuminating reply – and the saddest thing was that he couldn't see any parallel to that and his views on war.
I really hope Helen and her advisors aren't as wrong on this particular point as I fear they are. To my rather simple mind, gutting a Defence Force to the degree they've just done smacks of a Town Council scrapping the town Fire Service because there hasn't been a fire in the town for thirty years.
If Helen and her advisors think they can predict what’s going to happen over the next thirty years, they should be investing in the bloody stock market rather than running a country. Then they’ll only lose their money if they get it wrong.
I was at a party on Sydney's upper North Shore where every male but me was sporting tresses about two feet long. My short back and sides led to my being assailed by an outspoken (aren't they all?) peace loving member of Awstraya's intelligentsia, who proceeded to tell me, after first calling me a baby killer, that if everyone refused to fight, there'd be no more war. I agreed with him, but pointed out that such utopian ideals tended to fall by the wayside when the other bloke didn't abide by them. He shot my argument full of holes with all sorts of erudite platitudes that would have gone down a treat in a Sydney Uni Arts Degree tute, so I hypothesised: I pointed to the fellow's attractive, kaftan-wearing wife who was only a few feet away, asking him what he'd do if a group of bikies crashed the party and began gang raping her.
"Oh, that's different." was his rather illuminating reply – and the saddest thing was that he couldn't see any parallel to that and his views on war.
I really hope Helen and her advisors aren't as wrong on this particular point as I fear they are. To my rather simple mind, gutting a Defence Force to the degree they've just done smacks of a Town Council scrapping the town Fire Service because there hasn't been a fire in the town for thirty years.
If Helen and her advisors think they can predict what’s going to happen over the next thirty years, they should be investing in the bloody stock market rather than running a country. Then they’ll only lose their money if they get it wrong.
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My Dear Samuel. No all is not lost and I commend you for being so supportive of our brothers and sisters in arms. My meandering attempt at logic was really trying to say that iff there was a strategic plan to develop and maintain a credible land power base, and if the intelligence would support the dilution of maritime and air power, then that would be understandable. NZ, due to it's economic realities only has two main options for credible defence - either complete neutrality ala Switzerland or being part of functioning alliances. The Swiss option probably requires too much investment in capital programmes to be a floater so imho you are left with alliances. ANZUS etc. If NZ land forces are required in support of that organisation then strategic transport and tactical transport can be provided by the other members. If there is a requirement to deploy land forces in isolation to that alliance then stuft, or atuft would work in our current strategic environment - not much air defence in the SW Pacific. The analogy earlier with Sept 11 is, of course, really silly. The C and C and radar etc equipment alone would break the banks of OZ and NZ combined and it would still only be any defence against that type of terrorist act if our intelligence organisations could give us some sensible information with which to work - a joke I know. The flaw in my logic is that there is probably no such strategic plan other than a more immediate requirement for re-election at all costs. You all have my support and sympathy. Get rid of Hellen, not because she's a woman - some of my best friends are women - but because she is a morally corrupt, self serving liar.
Evertonian
...complete neutrality ala Switzerland
Well, for a neutral country, here's some defence facts...
Aircraft: 3 x Sqns F/A 18..72 x F5E/F..17 x Mirage III S/RS..20 x Hawk..12 x Super Pumas..75 x Alouette III..38 x PC-7
Sure, it's a better economy etc, etc, but they aren't stupid enough to think that the world is full of little pixies and chocolate covered peanuts!! Get a grip helen!
Aircraft: 3 x Sqns F/A 18..72 x F5E/F..17 x Mirage III S/RS..20 x Hawk..12 x Super Pumas..75 x Alouette III..38 x PC-7
Sure, it's a better economy etc, etc, but they aren't stupid enough to think that the world is full of little pixies and chocolate covered peanuts!! Get a grip helen!
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When!?
All the projects/plans mean squat until the the jet is on the OH flight line! How long was the A4 replacement planned for? Project cancelled.
You mention a LONG term plan; how long mate? Why should RNZAF personnel believe NZDF. Nothing has come of their past promises; in fact entirely the opposite.
When do the P3 Navs have to stop buying their own laptops because a school kid can pick up better Nav programs at Dick Smith? When can a Iroquois pilot go on a SAR without his/her own mobile?
In 1988 the Sioux was to replaced by the Bell 407. Cancelled by Labour! Casa replacement for the Andover...never happened. C130J has been on the cards for well over 7yrs..... Huey replacement since ever. Mate the Huey hasnt even got a DME! The Airtrainer has better avionics than our frontline combat aircraft........ Why? Because we dont own it, its a civilian aircraft.
Lets look at the whole RNZAF.......
Current RNZAF Aircraft (2002)
2 x B727 - no change
6 x Orions - no change
5 x C130 - no change
5 x Bell 47 - no change
16 x Hueys Crashed 1 brought 2, now 16
Lost since 1989
13 x Airtrainers SOLD/Civilianised
4 x Airtourers SOLD
3 x F27s/ NATTS SOLD/DISBANDED
3 x C421/141 Flight SOLD/DISBANDED
14 x Andovers SOLD
18 x Aermacchi AXED
22 x Skyhawks AXED
Bases: Wigram, Shelly Bay, Hobsonville, Te Rapa - CLOSED
We know that man for man the RNZAF is up to the game (you cannot say better than most, you cannot prove that!) This is not about the quality of the people....dont take it personally.
But please look at the facts....morale IS low. And it is low because history would indicate the future is grim, very grim indeed.
Your people have had every capital project squashed in the last decade..... and on top of that the Govt has actually taken away the very essence of an Air Force.....STRIKE. (You were incredibly proud of your Fighter Pilots and their reputation)
Why should personnel believe their Govt this time?
PS: Why does an Air Force of 32 Aircraft have a 2 Star Chief, 4 1 Stars, 18 Gp Captains, 68 Wing Commanders and 156 Squadron Leaders??? (248 Senior Officers!)
If you want to raise morale...... perhaps you should start at the top! (Start with th PM and move south from there)
You mention a LONG term plan; how long mate? Why should RNZAF personnel believe NZDF. Nothing has come of their past promises; in fact entirely the opposite.
When do the P3 Navs have to stop buying their own laptops because a school kid can pick up better Nav programs at Dick Smith? When can a Iroquois pilot go on a SAR without his/her own mobile?
In 1988 the Sioux was to replaced by the Bell 407. Cancelled by Labour! Casa replacement for the Andover...never happened. C130J has been on the cards for well over 7yrs..... Huey replacement since ever. Mate the Huey hasnt even got a DME! The Airtrainer has better avionics than our frontline combat aircraft........ Why? Because we dont own it, its a civilian aircraft.
Lets look at the whole RNZAF.......
Current RNZAF Aircraft (2002)
2 x B727 - no change
6 x Orions - no change
5 x C130 - no change
5 x Bell 47 - no change
16 x Hueys Crashed 1 brought 2, now 16
Lost since 1989
13 x Airtrainers SOLD/Civilianised
4 x Airtourers SOLD
3 x F27s/ NATTS SOLD/DISBANDED
3 x C421/141 Flight SOLD/DISBANDED
14 x Andovers SOLD
18 x Aermacchi AXED
22 x Skyhawks AXED
Bases: Wigram, Shelly Bay, Hobsonville, Te Rapa - CLOSED
We know that man for man the RNZAF is up to the game (you cannot say better than most, you cannot prove that!) This is not about the quality of the people....dont take it personally.
But please look at the facts....morale IS low. And it is low because history would indicate the future is grim, very grim indeed.
Your people have had every capital project squashed in the last decade..... and on top of that the Govt has actually taken away the very essence of an Air Force.....STRIKE. (You were incredibly proud of your Fighter Pilots and their reputation)
Why should personnel believe their Govt this time?
PS: Why does an Air Force of 32 Aircraft have a 2 Star Chief, 4 1 Stars, 18 Gp Captains, 68 Wing Commanders and 156 Squadron Leaders??? (248 Senior Officers!)
If you want to raise morale...... perhaps you should start at the top! (Start with th PM and move south from there)
Last edited by jungly; 19th Jul 2002 at 05:06.
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Got this from www.beehive.govt.nz
Projects Necessary to Avoid Significant Risks to Policy
ANZAC Self-defence Upgrade
NZDF Torpedo Replacement
C-130/P-3 Self-protection
Anti-ship Missiles
Joint Communications Modernisation
Whenuapai Runway Reconstruction
Whenuapai Hardstanding Reconstruction
Ohakea Hardstanding Reconstruction
Does this mean WP will be hanging around for longer that first thought??
Projects Necessary to Avoid Significant Risks to Policy
ANZAC Self-defence Upgrade
NZDF Torpedo Replacement
C-130/P-3 Self-protection
Anti-ship Missiles
Joint Communications Modernisation
Whenuapai Runway Reconstruction
Whenuapai Hardstanding Reconstruction
Ohakea Hardstanding Reconstruction
Does this mean WP will be hanging around for longer that first thought??
