If I may ask....
Air Information Circulars are not legally binding either. 
The point I was trying to make, was that unless you can find a defintiion in the Act(s), the CARs, the CAOs or the AIP then all you are doing is repeating someone's interpretation of the rules, which are no more binding than then anybody elses!
The point I was trying to make, was that unless you can find a defintiion in the Act(s), the CARs, the CAOs or the AIP then all you are doing is repeating someone's interpretation of the rules, which are no more binding than then anybody elses!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It is still beyond me as to why some pilots appear (according to their flimsy excuses in this thread) to have an insatiable NEED to log I.F.
What`s the big deal about instrument time, for heaven`s sake? Is it a "crutch" for low time pilots who need some form of one-upsmanship to make themselves feel more experienced than their peers, who have about the same number of hours?
For the umpteenth time in this thread, Instrument time is that time when the aircraft flown SOLELY by reference to instruments.
That does NOT include visual flight in reduced visibilty VFR! Nor does it include flying in visual conditions, "pretending" to fly on instruments.
What`s the big deal about instrument time, for heaven`s sake? Is it a "crutch" for low time pilots who need some form of one-upsmanship to make themselves feel more experienced than their peers, who have about the same number of hours?
For the umpteenth time in this thread, Instrument time is that time when the aircraft flown SOLELY by reference to instruments.
That does NOT include visual flight in reduced visibilty VFR! Nor does it include flying in visual conditions, "pretending" to fly on instruments.
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I've only been in this business a tad over 40yrs, but I'm obviously missing something here.
Every time I go flying I'm always on instruments whether I'ts 8/8 blue or 8/8 clag!...are'nt you?
Every time I go flying I'm always on instruments whether I'ts 8/8 blue or 8/8 clag!...are'nt you?
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Howard hughes :
For some people it is not as simple as you say and that is what I am attempting to clarify here. It is not crap - it is all actually straight from the Airservices website. I am not making anything up.
Checkboard :
You say AIC's are not legally binding and are just someone's interpretation. Then when do they bother to publish them ?
amos2 :
You been in the business a tad over 40 years but still do not seem to have any idea after all that time. I suggest you read the link http://www.airservices.gov.au/pilotc...ps/logbook.pdf
Just because you are always on instruments even in 8/8 blue does not mean you can log it as instrument time.
For some people it is not as simple as you say and that is what I am attempting to clarify here. It is not crap - it is all actually straight from the Airservices website. I am not making anything up.
Checkboard :
You say AIC's are not legally binding and are just someone's interpretation. Then when do they bother to publish them ?
amos2 :
You been in the business a tad over 40 years but still do not seem to have any idea after all that time. I suggest you read the link http://www.airservices.gov.au/pilotc...ps/logbook.pdf
Just because you are always on instruments even in 8/8 blue does not mean you can log it as instrument time.
Not yet moved back to Tassie yet Howard Hughes. Tomorrow is my final day at Air Ngukurr. Then back to Tassie for a short break, then off to PNG to fly the IL BANDITO. They must be a good plane.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
For I.R. pilots, what you are saying is correct, Amos - they tend to focus ( I guess 85% +) on instruments regardless of whether outside is 8/8ths 9999 or not. However, there ARE visual cues in VFR conditions that are subconciously processed when one THINKS he is flying "solely" on instruments.
And therein seems to be the problem some contibutors to this thread are UNAWARE of, and which B_C_L is trying to correct.
It would appear, Amos, that SOME pilots take LITERALLY that which you have posted, and log I.F. time from wheels up to wheels down even on sunny, cloudless, 50nm + vis. days (and nights). I'm sure that YOU aren't one of those, Amos.
BTW, thanks for the explanation, Bevan - that may explain the reason why some pilots seem to be grasping at straws to log instrument time.
Personally, I just fly with my eyes closed!
And therein seems to be the problem some contibutors to this thread are UNAWARE of, and which B_C_L is trying to correct.
It would appear, Amos, that SOME pilots take LITERALLY that which you have posted, and log I.F. time from wheels up to wheels down even on sunny, cloudless, 50nm + vis. days (and nights). I'm sure that YOU aren't one of those, Amos.
BTW, thanks for the explanation, Bevan - that may explain the reason why some pilots seem to be grasping at straws to log instrument time.
Personally, I just fly with my eyes closed!
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well said Kaptin M and Bevan
Up here in the top end it is very hard/impossible to get the 3 hours IF (IMC) in the last 90 days - especially the 1 hour IF including an instrument approach !!!!!!!!
It is basically CAVOK/VMC for about 6 months here. Even in the wet season, you still fly visual to keep clear of buildups/CB's. Last wet I think I did about 15 hours IF and 3 approaches !!!!
Yet its amazing how many pilots somehow log IF in the dry season without a cloud in sight. Sure the smoke can get thick at times but rarely below VMC - just look at all the VFR aircraft flying around in it.
Up here in the top end it is very hard/impossible to get the 3 hours IF (IMC) in the last 90 days - especially the 1 hour IF including an instrument approach !!!!!!!!
It is basically CAVOK/VMC for about 6 months here. Even in the wet season, you still fly visual to keep clear of buildups/CB's. Last wet I think I did about 15 hours IF and 3 approaches !!!!
Yet its amazing how many pilots somehow log IF in the dry season without a cloud in sight. Sure the smoke can get thick at times but rarely below VMC - just look at all the VFR aircraft flying around in it.
Last edited by Woomera; 9th Jul 2002 at 02:28.
This is what I would have accepted for an answer:
CAO SECTION 40.1.0
Issue 6
AIRCRAFT ENDORSEMENTS — AEROPLANES
As this includes the phrase "under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." then you cannot log Instrument time in Night VMC or Day VMC, unless you are wearing a hood.
CAO SECTION 40.1.0
Issue 6
AIRCRAFT ENDORSEMENTS — AEROPLANES
10 LOGGING OF FLIGHT TIME...
10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Note: Instrument flight time shall only be logged by one pilot at a time.
10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Note: Instrument flight time shall only be logged by one pilot at a time.
Correct checkboard.
So there must be a market for lots of synthetic trainers up north to log 2 of the 3 hours IF in 90 days?
Just goes to show IF CASA was doing any sort of job of surveillance there would be massive problems with bic currency. As it is their surveillance means zip. I have been flying Charter/Instruction for 13 years and never had a ramp inspection.
So there must be a market for lots of synthetic trainers up north to log 2 of the 3 hours IF in 90 days?
Just goes to show IF CASA was doing any sort of job of surveillance there would be massive problems with bic currency. As it is their surveillance means zip. I have been flying Charter/Instruction for 13 years and never had a ramp inspection.
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Whoa big boy!!!
Well, I have heard of verbal diarea and typo diarea but what I have witnessed here made me wonder...
I dont know what the big fuss is about B_C_L. You fill In your hours, Ill fill in mine, OK. I have done 25 Renewals, the 26th coming up in a week, after a scrutiny by CAASA or the SADCA before them, my logbook and the summery of my hours have been accepted and approved every time without question.
What you do and how you have to justify you record keeping style is up to you. I dont want to and dont need to compete or brag or impress any body least of all you.
All that I wanted to do was find out how are you guys down-under. Maybe make a friend or two that I can share a beer with when I visit your wonderful Continent.
Thanks to B-C-L for the lessons and referances to your legislation. I think I know who to contact now to answer any question I ever wanted or didnt want to know about Aussie Civil Aviation.
Howard and even you BCL, if you ever come round this side of the blue green planet give us a shout, so we can share some tales and tall stories about been there and donnit, while imbibing some of the best amber nectar this side of The Indian Ocean.
This will be the last time I will be commenting on the side tracking.
Any mates out there share the sentiment please drop us a line.
Greeting from the Dark Continent
Ye olde Contraxdog
I dont know what the big fuss is about B_C_L. You fill In your hours, Ill fill in mine, OK. I have done 25 Renewals, the 26th coming up in a week, after a scrutiny by CAASA or the SADCA before them, my logbook and the summery of my hours have been accepted and approved every time without question.
What you do and how you have to justify you record keeping style is up to you. I dont want to and dont need to compete or brag or impress any body least of all you.
All that I wanted to do was find out how are you guys down-under. Maybe make a friend or two that I can share a beer with when I visit your wonderful Continent.
Thanks to B-C-L for the lessons and referances to your legislation. I think I know who to contact now to answer any question I ever wanted or didnt want to know about Aussie Civil Aviation.
Howard and even you BCL, if you ever come round this side of the blue green planet give us a shout, so we can share some tales and tall stories about been there and donnit, while imbibing some of the best amber nectar this side of The Indian Ocean.
This will be the last time I will be commenting on the side tracking.
Any mates out there share the sentiment please drop us a line.
Greeting from the Dark Continent
Ye olde Contraxdog
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Hey, don't get upset, contraxdog - look at the discussion and debate you've inspired!
Judging by the number of "hits", there are plenty of people out there who have clicked on your thread, and no doubt a percentage of these have actually LEARNT something.
Logging of flight time in general is left to the discretion of the pilot - unfortunately there is a minority who "pad" their time to (try) to gain unfair advantage over the rest, and often get away with it. Generally these people are well-known by other pilots, but it seems the authority usually CAN'T do anything to pull them back into line.
Probably, this thread of your's contraxdog, will help the newer pilots understand the basis for logging IF time, and may encourage some of the more experienced ones to review the criteria they have been using.
Cheers!
Judging by the number of "hits", there are plenty of people out there who have clicked on your thread, and no doubt a percentage of these have actually LEARNT something.
Logging of flight time in general is left to the discretion of the pilot - unfortunately there is a minority who "pad" their time to (try) to gain unfair advantage over the rest, and often get away with it. Generally these people are well-known by other pilots, but it seems the authority usually CAN'T do anything to pull them back into line.
Probably, this thread of your's contraxdog, will help the newer pilots understand the basis for logging IF time, and may encourage some of the more experienced ones to review the criteria they have been using.
Cheers!
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Thanks Kaptin M
You are right - there are far too many pilots who "pad" their time and get away with it. Some do it on purpose so as to try and get ahead whilst others do it through pure ignorance.
I also like to add that just because there is no discernible horizon (day or night) it does NOT mean it can be logged as IF time. Up here in the "top end" quite often there will be no horizon during the day due thick smoke and you will not see an airport/ground feature until maybe 5 nm however the visibility will still be in excess of 5km (2.7nm !!).
You are right - there are far too many pilots who "pad" their time and get away with it. Some do it on purpose so as to try and get ahead whilst others do it through pure ignorance.
I also like to add that just because there is no discernible horizon (day or night) it does NOT mean it can be logged as IF time. Up here in the "top end" quite often there will be no horizon during the day due thick smoke and you will not see an airport/ground feature until maybe 5 nm however the visibility will still be in excess of 5km (2.7nm !!).
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cook up your own gravy...
Yes, it is indeed good to see that everyone has learnt something here. As an "experienced" operator it warms my heart to realise that many young up and coming pilots will be re-adjusting their logbook practices and saving themselves A LOT OF TROUBLE if they are serious about getting into the majors, by using just a little creativity.
It was a lot of work at the time but, for me, it definitely paid off. It wasn't always easy coming up with the BS about how a 1.2hr sector in a 210 at noon became 1.8 in a turbine-powered Super-Twin-210 at night, in cloud with an ILS into that outback dirt strip, under RPT/SAL regs. Again and again... Fortunately the chief pillock at the joint I did my first couple of years was in on the game, too, so "everyone's a winner!!"
Hey don't feel bad about a little 'padding', I reckon I shaved about 2 years driving bug-smashers off my 'apprenticeship' and beat the C/P to a jet, too! And like I said, it's really not a prob as I have no intention of moving outa my S/O position in the back seat, you see, I don't really like flying THAT much. So does it really matter if my abilities match my 'experience'? Of COURSE NOT!!!
The important thing is I put a lot back into the industry. I always buy the first round at the bar, listen to their crap and talk over them about MY "hard years" in the bush, and then leave the crusty old men to it and head for where the "tarts" are to let THEM in on the action as well. And getting into an airline early means I'm better able to afford it.
You see, people like B_C_L are just rocking the boat. Maybe he has trouble looking in the mirror after his 'juggling' and so he takes it out on the guys with less scruples than him and that's why he's so juiced up about it... who knows. Who CARES. But take my advice and get that pen going, the only limit is your imagination!!
It was a lot of work at the time but, for me, it definitely paid off. It wasn't always easy coming up with the BS about how a 1.2hr sector in a 210 at noon became 1.8 in a turbine-powered Super-Twin-210 at night, in cloud with an ILS into that outback dirt strip, under RPT/SAL regs. Again and again... Fortunately the chief pillock at the joint I did my first couple of years was in on the game, too, so "everyone's a winner!!"
Hey don't feel bad about a little 'padding', I reckon I shaved about 2 years driving bug-smashers off my 'apprenticeship' and beat the C/P to a jet, too! And like I said, it's really not a prob as I have no intention of moving outa my S/O position in the back seat, you see, I don't really like flying THAT much. So does it really matter if my abilities match my 'experience'? Of COURSE NOT!!!
The important thing is I put a lot back into the industry. I always buy the first round at the bar, listen to their crap and talk over them about MY "hard years" in the bush, and then leave the crusty old men to it and head for where the "tarts" are to let THEM in on the action as well. And getting into an airline early means I'm better able to afford it.
You see, people like B_C_L are just rocking the boat. Maybe he has trouble looking in the mirror after his 'juggling' and so he takes it out on the guys with less scruples than him and that's why he's so juiced up about it... who knows. Who CARES. But take my advice and get that pen going, the only limit is your imagination!!
Last edited by gravy; 10th Jul 2002 at 00:49.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
You'll be happy to know that you aren't alone, gravy. And some guys get away with it for years.
Probably the best known recent (within the last 3 years) example was a guy who faked a complete endorsement .
Ended up having his WHOLE Aussie licence pulled by CASA!!
Gravy on bacon....mmm, tastes good.
Probably the best known recent (within the last 3 years) example was a guy who faked a complete endorsement .
Ended up having his WHOLE Aussie licence pulled by CASA!!
Gravy on bacon....mmm, tastes good.
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Contrax old dog - the last bloke I heard quoting JLS (pretending brotherhood) back in '89 promptly scabbed the next day.
Jamie32020202020 - Ansett - the icon - died in 1979. The one you worked for wasn't Ansett.
Jamie32020202020 - Ansett - the icon - died in 1979. The one you worked for wasn't Ansett.
Nunc est bibendum
Check, not being facetious here but define 'simulated' IMC for me. Surely that doesn't necessarily mean a hood?
None of it applies to me these days anyways as I get more than the three in 90 and don't 'need' to log the IF anyway but I'm just interested in how 'simulated' can be interpereted.
TT2, knock it off will ya, start another thread if you want, this one has been pretty informative!
None of it applies to me these days anyways as I get more than the three in 90 and don't 'need' to log the IF anyway but I'm just interested in how 'simulated' can be interpereted.
TT2, knock it off will ya, start another thread if you want, this one has been pretty informative!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Yes Keg, that's EXACTLY what it means - simulated Instrument Meteorological Conditions. The IF part is real (obviously), however the visual cues have been artificially removed, either by placing a hood over your head, or sticking you in a box (the "lurching cave", as it's more commonly known)! 
[Sorry, but my name's not Check - however I'm pretty sure that he'll agree.]
[Sorry, but my name's not Check - however I'm pretty sure that he'll agree.]