Autolandings?

[747-438]

Hi all,

My mate and i have been arguing for about 2 weeks about what pilots do when landing a airliner like the 747. What i mean is do pilots let the autoland system on the aircraft land or do you land manually, like me in my C152.

My mate has said that his friend who is a pilot for a big airline, almost never lands manually and only practices them on occasions eg. once a month. I say that most landings are manually done and autolandings are only practised on occasions to keep current.

So what do you say???

[Dale Harris]

No autoland available in OZ mate. Europe and US yes.

[Master of the House]

I thought autolands were approved in oz in vmc only???

[The Messiah]

Yeah they can be practised for a/c currency but not used in anger as there is no Cat 3b. Or so I'm lead to believe.

Did one for real into Paris about 4 months ago, all others have been manual.

[Sopwith Pup]

747-438 it has been my experience that most pilots prefer to do the landing themselves, it keeps them current and is more satisfying.
Autoland is available in Australia to ILS equiped runways, however it is limited to CAT 1 or above weather conditions as we have no CAT 2 or 3 ILS systems here.

[Dale Harris]

Sorry, that was what I meant guys. Cat 3 N/A here.

[Four Tynes]

Autolands for real are not uncommon here in the UK, particularly around Nov/Dec with all the fog. Different autoland scenarios in the sim are practiced every 6 months (equipment failures, etc which may require an intended cat3B to be downgraded to a cat3A for example), and we try to fit in 3 or more practice autolands between sim sessions. With congested airports such as London Gatwick, it`s sometimes unrealistic (unless it`s 3am!) to expect full ILS protection (a/c clear,etc) for a practice autoland in vmc, so it`s wise to have a finger hovering near the autopilot disconnect button. 99% of landings are done manually though on our 757/767s.

[L84Wrk]

Dont fly 74-438's but autoland when ever wx below cat 1 min (550m vis JAR) or to maintain 6 month currency.
Most plan and prepare for an autoland though if its avaliable, and cloud below 3/400 ' and any mention of RVR's

[Going Boeing]

B747-438

I don't know about:

My mate has said that his friend who is a pilot for a big airline, almost never lands manually and only practices them on occasions eg. once a month.

Autoland has a number of limitations eg 10 knots crosswind etc so for autolands to become the normal method of landing you would have to fly to destinations that don't have strong winds etc.
Besides, as a pilot, I enjoy doing landings myself and can't see any reason to give away a landing to an aircraft.

[*Lancer*]

Going Boeing, Don't know what aircraft you're using as a reference, but I was under the impression Autolands can be made in a crosswind of 25 knots...

747-438, the aircraft itself has an autoland recency that must be satisfied for the feature to be used in a situation that requires it. Situations that require an autoland is any Cat3 or Cat2 ILS where the ceiling is below a certain height (usually stiplated by airline procedures). In order to satisfy the aircraft recency, an autoland can be conducted off any ILS providing the minima is above the height that would otherwise create an autoland requirement.

There are only Cat1 ILSs in Australia, so legally an autoland in a weather situation that requires one cannot be conducted. That is why Australian airports are occasionally closed due to fog - although the aircraft are capable of autolanding in that situation, the ground equipment has not been certified for it.

As Sopwith Pup mentioned, an autoland can technically be conducted on any runway with an ILS... There was an incident a few years ago where an Ansett A320 flew to Adelaide and encountered fog. The forecast was changed as they got there, indicating the fog would not clear. Without fuel to hold, or fuel to divert, they were forced to conduct an autoland, off the Cat1 ILS, below minima.

Ragardless, your side of the coin is the most correct - most landings are carried out manually.

Lancer

[hotnhigh]

Indeed most autolands conducted when there's fog about. However, x/wind limits for the 75/767 : 25knots.
And basically everything to be working to use full cat3b minima.

[Going Boeing]

Sounds like QF uses more restrictive limits than other operators -

Slight differences between aircraft types but the limits used are:- 15 knots X-wind with greater than 300' cloud base & 1200m RVR, 15 kts X-wind (dry) 10 kts X-wind (wet) below 300'/1200m RVR, 10 kts X-wind Dry or wet (incl gusts) below 200'/600m RVR. Also max 21 kts headwind & 10 kts tailwind. As the system was originally designed to permit landings in fog then it is unnecessary to develop the capability to full aircraft limits.

[L84Wrk]

GOING BOEING
Good point, I suppose that fog was the primary reason for autoland technology. Have to say though, I can think of a couple of places in the EU with " fast fog ", where the 25 kt headwind/x-wind limit comes into play.

Cant recall ever hearing met vis measured in RVR in Aus?
Is that luck with the wx or because no watsit meters installed?

[engage left autopilot]

Going Boeing, You are right. The 25kt limits dont apply during required autoland scenarios... such as very low vis approachs, L8t4wrk, I do recall an RVR being given to us in Melbourne just recently (with some fog threatening)...

[Waste Gate]

Autoland crosswind limit.

*Lancer*

The -400 is certified for autoland in 25 knots crosswind, but the company limit for low vis ops is 10 knots (low vis. section on Ops. Man 1). So if you are doing a practice autoland on a CAVOK day, you could accept 25 knots crosswind, but if you have to do an autoland for real (wx below CAT 1) then the limit is 10 knots. Took me ages to work that out!!

[2XL]

European Ops(UK) certainly different. Certain companies have specific approval for the following on the 763 ;

Takeoff RVR 150 m
Landing Cat3b 0 DH 75 m RVR
Landing Cat3a 50 ft DH 200 m RVR
Landing Cat2 100 ft DH 300m RVR
Landing Cat1 200 ft DH 550 m RVR
Crosswind & headwind limits 25 kts
Tailwind limits 15 kts

These limits not available to all operators. Various other countries within Europe have slightly different requirements.

Cat2 and below are usually always planned as Autolands subject to Operator, airfield and crew qualifications.

[747-438]

Thanx very much for all the replay's. I will pass on the info to my mate.

I have another question regarding the CAT I, CAT II etc. What are the limitations eg. minima? and how come not all runway have CAT IIIb cababilities?

Thanx

[hotnhigh]

Most minima dictated by the state. For instance, in France, Cat 3b has a DH of 15ft. In some places, although plates are stipulated to Cat 2, Operators have approval to operate to Cat3b provided they have carried out 3 autolands to that minima in Cat 1 or better and there were no problems. Hope this helps.

[2XL]

Re your limitations question there are many things to consider. Clearly the low vis/minima autolands require incredible safeguards. Terrain on approach can limit Cat limitations as some airports simply not suitable for approaches less than Cat1.

Whilst all things in the flightdeck/on the aircraft need to have redundancy and be operational, the airport itself must also be able to provide accuracy, backup systems and safety for the operators. So things like Cat2/3 holding points, lighting, increased a/c spacing on approach, and back up electrical systems on the ground at the airport need to be guaranteed as well.

The list goes on.....but there are a few points.

[*Lancer*]

747-438,

The ILS Category minima limits are bascially what 2XL said... There is also a Cat3c ILS which is 0/0. Used sometimes in Europe I believe -- but involves either a tow off the RWY or a 'follow me' car. The reason all runways don't have a Cat3 is twofold: everything 2XL said, and money

Lancer