Scenics or RPT?
Thread Starter
Scenics or RPT?
Just a question for those out there with a better understanding of the regs than me.
As many of you would be aware, most scenic operators publish departure times and/or days of the week/time of year when scenic flights operate, along with the costs, routes etc etc in their brochures.
So, my questions is this - where does this fall in terms of charter and RPT? By advertising times and routes, aren't these companies operating "between fixed terminals on fixed schedules" AND these flights are "open to persons generally" by means of advertising. (Wording of regs rough from memory)
Maybe I'm looking into this way too much, but would be interested to hear people's opinions.
Cheers,
TL
As many of you would be aware, most scenic operators publish departure times and/or days of the week/time of year when scenic flights operate, along with the costs, routes etc etc in their brochures.
So, my questions is this - where does this fall in terms of charter and RPT? By advertising times and routes, aren't these companies operating "between fixed terminals on fixed schedules" AND these flights are "open to persons generally" by means of advertising. (Wording of regs rough from memory)
Maybe I'm looking into this way too much, but would be interested to hear people's opinions.
Cheers,
TL
Check Attitude
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Transition Layer, Hi, scenics are not RPT. Quite simply you cannot go from "A" to "B" as you do with RPT. Regular Public Transport is a means for you to get to where you want to go ( A to B). A scenic flight returns you to your destination without going anywhere, i.e., you depart from "A" and return to "A" without the option of disembarking some where you wanted to go. You do not go from fixed terminals to fixed terminals, you get on at Kununnurra and return to Kununnurra on the same flight without disembarking somewhere you might have wanted to go and make your own way home. Does any RPT operator offer a service from Sydney to Sydney non-stop? Transport implies you will be carried somewhere other than where you are, not taken up in the air and brought back down again. No doubt some of the military infiltrators of CASA would attempt a ruling on this as they did with shared charter vs RPT. Leave it alone, it's the only way most pilots in this country will build their hours in a safe, disciplined and regulated way, far better than meat bombing, which isn't even regarded as a commercial operation, yet the meat bombs do not return in the aircarft to their point of embarkation, they actually go from "A" to "B" in an unregulated, undisciplined operation.
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What about getting on at KU, flying down to Bellburn for a Bungles ground tour operator to look after you and then coming back after a few days! It is RPT, but lets not all get anal over it.
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To be considered RPT, and operation must be all of the following 3:
A charter operation can be any combination of 2 of the above.
- Operate from Point A to Point B
- Operate on a fixed published schedule
- Be available to the general public
A charter operation can be any combination of 2 of the above.
Thread Starter
Thanks guys, as you point out, technically speaking it's not RPT, but in my opinion, the only thing stopping that is the fact it doesn't go from A to B. (except two dogs example that is 
)
Some would argue that certain scenics satisfy all three of Jimmy Pops criteria.
As for mainframe's suggestion that I "leave it alone", there's no way I was criticising scenics, especially not since i'm someone just starting out in the industry myself. I was just after a bit of clarification after discussing it with some other pilots.
Cheers,
TL
)Some would argue that certain scenics satisfy all three of Jimmy Pops criteria.
As for mainframe's suggestion that I "leave it alone", there's no way I was criticising scenics, especially not since i'm someone just starting out in the industry myself. I was just after a bit of clarification after discussing it with some other pilots.
Cheers,
TL
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gday TL!
Ok, firstly can someone point out where it says RPT is only from point A to point B and not point A to point A (I don't know why anyone would want to go to Point B anyway, I've heard it's a sh*thole
)
Anyway, from what has been posted so far:
Scenic Flights
AAA-scenic-AAA
Departing: 0900 daily from YAAA
Cost: $AAA.AA per person...
is apparently not RPT, even though available generally, for hire or reward, with a fixed schedule, to and from fixed terminals (it doesn't say it has to be different terminals), over specific routes
Sorry but I'm not convinced.
Secondly, a slight variation on the above. How about a company selling spare seats on a specific scenic?
ie: 2 spare seats available on scenic flight to xxxx, departing YAAA on 1/2/02 at 0900, $xxx.xx per person
Is that also OK?
I'm not trying to be anal about it - I've worked for companies doing scenics for a few years and I know how they operate. However, is it 100% ridgy didge or is it just a case of this is how its always been done.
Ok, firstly can someone point out where it says RPT is only from point A to point B and not point A to point A (I don't know why anyone would want to go to Point B anyway, I've heard it's a sh*thole
)Anyway, from what has been posted so far:
Scenic Flights
AAA-scenic-AAA
Departing: 0900 daily from YAAA
Cost: $AAA.AA per person...
is apparently not RPT, even though available generally, for hire or reward, with a fixed schedule, to and from fixed terminals (it doesn't say it has to be different terminals), over specific routes
Sorry but I'm not convinced.Secondly, a slight variation on the above. How about a company selling spare seats on a specific scenic?
ie: 2 spare seats available on scenic flight to xxxx, departing YAAA on 1/2/02 at 0900, $xxx.xx per person
Is that also OK?
I'm not trying to be anal about it - I've worked for companies doing scenics for a few years and I know how they operate. However, is it 100% ridgy didge or is it just a case of this is how its always been done.
This rears its head occasionally...
From the CARs:
(nb - 262 refers to the carriage of examiners - not really relevant here...)
Scenics...
Fixed schedules...yes
Persons generally...yes
Specific route...yes
Fixed terminals...yes
It would be suicidal for CASA to try and enforce this. There have also been too many precedents of approval of this type of operation from CASA before. They, (and quite rightly so) just turn a blind eye.
This debate will be irrelevant if the proposed CASR 121B regulations come in anyway.
From the CARs:
206 Commercial purposes (Act, s 27 (9))
(1) For the purposes of subsection 27 (9) of the Act, the following
commercial purposes are prescribed:
(a) aerial work purposes, being purposes of the following kinds:
(omitted for brevity and relevance)
(b) charter purposes, being purposes of the following kinds:
(i) the carriage of passengers or cargo for hire or reward to or
from any place, other than carriage in accordance with
fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals or carriage for
an operation mentioned in subregulation 262AM (7) or
under a permission to fly in force under subregulation
317 (1);
(ii) the carriage, in accordance with fixed schedules to and
from fixed terminals, of passengers or cargo or passengers
and cargo in circumstances in which the accommodation in
the aircraft is not available for use by persons generally;
(c) the purpose of transporting persons generally, or transporting
cargo for persons generally, for hire or reward in accordance with
fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals over specific routes
with or without intermediate stopping places between terminals.
(1) For the purposes of subsection 27 (9) of the Act, the following
commercial purposes are prescribed:
(a) aerial work purposes, being purposes of the following kinds:
(omitted for brevity and relevance)
(b) charter purposes, being purposes of the following kinds:
(i) the carriage of passengers or cargo for hire or reward to or
from any place, other than carriage in accordance with
fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals or carriage for
an operation mentioned in subregulation 262AM (7) or
under a permission to fly in force under subregulation
317 (1);
(ii) the carriage, in accordance with fixed schedules to and
from fixed terminals, of passengers or cargo or passengers
and cargo in circumstances in which the accommodation in
the aircraft is not available for use by persons generally;
(c) the purpose of transporting persons generally, or transporting
cargo for persons generally, for hire or reward in accordance with
fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals over specific routes
with or without intermediate stopping places between terminals.
Scenics...
Fixed schedules...yes
Persons generally...yes
Specific route...yes
Fixed terminals...yes
It would be suicidal for CASA to try and enforce this. There have also been too many precedents of approval of this type of operation from CASA before. They, (and quite rightly so) just turn a blind eye.
This debate will be irrelevant if the proposed CASR 121B regulations come in anyway.
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it hasn't been written in blood yet - which the CAR's and COA's are, so go and do what you can, as much as you can, until some idiot pucks it up for everyone, and the Feds will step in and tell you the difference that your after.
Ifs it not broke - why fix it!! Leave it alone my man - I'm sorry, what did you say Bob did.........................
Ifs it not broke - why fix it!! Leave it alone my man - I'm sorry, what did you say Bob did.........................
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Some of you seem to have a particular place in mind. Could you enlighten me where does an Operator fly scenic flights
on "Fixed schedules" even when there are no passengers?....yes. Yep it's 10 o clock, lets go.
Persons generally...yes
Specific route...yes
Fixed terminals...yes. Any terminals?
We do Scenic flights when the passengers want them and to where they want to go. Am I missing something?
on "Fixed schedules" even when there are no passengers?....yes. Yep it's 10 o clock, lets go.
Persons generally...yes
Specific route...yes
Fixed terminals...yes. Any terminals?
We do Scenic flights when the passengers want them and to where they want to go. Am I missing something?
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Ah, now back to the dreaded Part 121B JAR version.
Your scenic/joyflight will soon have to be conducted in the same manner as charter, and under Part 121B almost like RPT.
No more hour building for 200 hr CPLs.
Now the GFA (Gliders) do it 'non-commercially' but still charge. The PFA (meat bombers) fly for money but use PPLs. Why then is a joyflight any different.
I recon JFs (that depart and return to the same place without an intermediate landing) should be Airwork, subject to liability disclaimers (to keep insurance costs down) and available for any CPL holder in an AWK aircraft.
Getting people used to aircraft and getting them accepted (so the journos leave us alone) is half the battle.
The DP for Part 121B is here
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/newrule.../121b.htm#docs
Read it, tell them the JARs aint acceptable and that the proposal is totally unacceptable. For fun cc it to a few pollies as well
Chuck
Your scenic/joyflight will soon have to be conducted in the same manner as charter, and under Part 121B almost like RPT.
No more hour building for 200 hr CPLs.
Now the GFA (Gliders) do it 'non-commercially' but still charge. The PFA (meat bombers) fly for money but use PPLs. Why then is a joyflight any different.
I recon JFs (that depart and return to the same place without an intermediate landing) should be Airwork, subject to liability disclaimers (to keep insurance costs down) and available for any CPL holder in an AWK aircraft.
Getting people used to aircraft and getting them accepted (so the journos leave us alone) is half the battle.
The DP for Part 121B is here
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/newrule.../121b.htm#docs
Read it, tell them the JARs aint acceptable and that the proposal is totally unacceptable. For fun cc it to a few pollies as well
Chuck
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I Fly,
The problem is that the particular operators I'm talking about (more than one) advertise set departure times, exactly as I showed in my original post. This is no doubt for convenience and to co-ordinate passengers, which is great. However, as I think we've deduced, this moves it into a grey area which is technically RPT, but not policed by cARSa.
What TL and I originally wanted to know was if this practice is something that carsa will catch up with eventually, or if it's something a company could include in its advertising without fear of any anal FOI's kicking their buts.
The problem is that the particular operators I'm talking about (more than one) advertise set departure times, exactly as I showed in my original post. This is no doubt for convenience and to co-ordinate passengers, which is great. However, as I think we've deduced, this moves it into a grey area which is technically RPT, but not policed by cARSa.
What TL and I originally wanted to know was if this practice is something that carsa will catch up with eventually, or if it's something a company could include in its advertising without fear of any anal FOI's kicking their buts.
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Well
Interpreting the Regs is something the retired SQDLDRS in CASA do daily, but never get the same answer twice.
Looking at it, scheduling flights rather than randomly taking people when they want is grey, but would still be a scenic.
Selling tickets via other agencies, ie the NT Travel Bureau, seesm to make it even more RPT ish. But, if it only uses one strip, like te Uluru flights then it doesn't have a 'destination' and seems OK. If it goes elsewhere, the Bungles example, then perhaps it is different.
I will run this past a lawyer I know and see what he says.
Chuck
Interpreting the Regs is something the retired SQDLDRS in CASA do daily, but never get the same answer twice.
Looking at it, scheduling flights rather than randomly taking people when they want is grey, but would still be a scenic.
Selling tickets via other agencies, ie the NT Travel Bureau, seesm to make it even more RPT ish. But, if it only uses one strip, like te Uluru flights then it doesn't have a 'destination' and seems OK. If it goes elsewhere, the Bungles example, then perhaps it is different.
I will run this past a lawyer I know and see what he says.
Chuck
I Fly....
Could you enlighten me where does an Operator fly scenic flights on "Fixed schedules" even when there are no passengers?....yes. Yep it's 10 o clock, lets go.
Fixed terminals...yes. Any terminals?
We do Scenic flights when the passengers want them and to where they want to go. Am I missing something?
1. Do you advertise in your brochures a 0600 departure?
2. Do you advertise and operate a set standard route (also restricted by the ERSA standard operating route)
3. Do you sell your scenics seat by seat?
4. Do other agencies sell SOME of your seats on commission?
It's a grey area, and thankfully CASA is ignoring it.
Ulm
The PFA (meat bombers) fly for money but use PPLs. Why then is a joyflight any different.
And...
As for SE VFR pilot minimum experience requirements under the CASR 121B, the following reference:
121B960: 121B.201(b)(2)
100 hrs as pilot in command (PIC) of
registered or recognised aeroplanes,
including 5 hrs PIC or in command
under supervision (ICUS) of the type
or class concerned, including 5 take-
offs and landings.
It will not change the 200 hour scenic pilot at all. Higher minimum expereince requirements in other operations mean that there will be HIGHER demand for low houred pilots to find scenic work.
