View Poll Results: Is horizon going to get the NSW QF link routes?
yes!
14
38.89%
no!
3
8.33%
not a chance!!
11
30.56%
maybe?
8
22.22%
Voters: 36. This poll is closed
Horizon airlines? what are they up to??
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Join Date: May 2002
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Horizon airlines? what are they up to??
I have heard they are trying to take on the ex QF link B1900 routes? is this correct, or is it all pie in the sky stuff.... have they got the ability and finances to pull it off?
Does anyone have an opinion on this company, as the word on the street has them with poor moral, and pilots leaving?
so whats the truth?
Any metro work there? and are they looking after pilots?
Does anyone have an opinion on this company, as the word on the street has them with poor moral, and pilots leaving?
so whats the truth?
Any metro work there? and are they looking after pilots?
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Have heard the same whisper. A friend of a friend informs me they are going to use Metro 23's for the work. They have done some interviewing in the last few weeks for possible DE captains. Am unsure if the work has been confirmed or where the planes are coming from. Mind you, they seem to be a happening little company with the Aeropelican purchase & their night freight business. Thats all I know 'metrodude'. Hope it helps & hope you land a job if thats what your chasing.
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Out of NSW they would only need 2 metros to do the work, my assumption is Dash8 the rest. Don't they have that capacity at the moment.
While we are at it what about ******/Sunshine express ex BN
While we are at it what about ******/Sunshine express ex BN
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Have heard that Horizon will be taking over the Sydney - Taree route and Sydney to Cooma route. No news yet on aircraft types. Has also been talk that they will be using Eastland Air's IATA designator 'DK'.
Could all just be a big load of crap too, but this is a rumor network...
Could all just be a big load of crap too, but this is a rumor network...
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Can confirm as of sometime next month, they will be operating the Sydney to Cooma run on behalf of Qantas. Firstly with metros and then during the peak season there is talk of taking the HS748 in there. Will keep the existing schedule that Impulse have been running (two a day) for the time being.
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Hey boys and girls, stop and think about all of this for a moment.
Not taking anything away from IAP/Horizon, but Qantas don't give anthing away they can make money from. Therefore, Cooma, Glen Innes, Inverell etc., are 'dog' ports that have been and will remain unprofitable. If Qantas has cast these ports off to a third part carrier, because of unprofitability, so be it!!
The regional market, however, in Australia has definitely 'moved' with customers expecting higher service levels. This, I think, is the fundamental reason Qantas-Link is ditching the B1900D. It is a very good 'current generation' aircraft but does not offer flight attendant, meal and toilet services. This also was why Hazelton recently removed Metro 23's from their inventory. The B1900D does, however, offer stand-up headroom, which compared with a Metro is a 'big' plus.
At a time when legislative changes have definitely moved towards requiring a higher stand of compliance for all RPT operators, what have IAP/Horizon got to offer. Metro II's (which do not satisfy CAO20.7.1.B) and HS-748's, which offer 40 year old technology that is both substantially obsolete and somewhat unreliable. Particularly if RPT is proposed where aircraft must be reliably working 8 to 11 hours each day and 7 days each week.
IAP/Horizon might argue that their operations are cheaper all round (cheaper aircraft and crews) and therefore they will make money where Qantas-Link is too expensive. Such a notion, I think, would ultimately be seen as shortsighted if things such as accrual costs associate with operating such aircraft are not properly considered.
Suppose IAP were to go down the road of trying to use old and unsuitable aircraft continuously on competitive RPT. It wouldn't be long before other operators using Saab's and DHC-8's would start to 'clean-up' from charter charges associated with break-down rescues of IAP/Horizon's customers. What then is IAP/Horizon to do? Their only choice is to equip with current generation aircraft if they want to compete. Historically, however, IAP has made it's money trading spares and therefore a sea change in business strategy would be needed in their thinking to go the costly route of re-equipping!
Lets wait and see how bold they are!!
The Oracle!
Not taking anything away from IAP/Horizon, but Qantas don't give anthing away they can make money from. Therefore, Cooma, Glen Innes, Inverell etc., are 'dog' ports that have been and will remain unprofitable. If Qantas has cast these ports off to a third part carrier, because of unprofitability, so be it!!
The regional market, however, in Australia has definitely 'moved' with customers expecting higher service levels. This, I think, is the fundamental reason Qantas-Link is ditching the B1900D. It is a very good 'current generation' aircraft but does not offer flight attendant, meal and toilet services. This also was why Hazelton recently removed Metro 23's from their inventory. The B1900D does, however, offer stand-up headroom, which compared with a Metro is a 'big' plus.
At a time when legislative changes have definitely moved towards requiring a higher stand of compliance for all RPT operators, what have IAP/Horizon got to offer. Metro II's (which do not satisfy CAO20.7.1.B) and HS-748's, which offer 40 year old technology that is both substantially obsolete and somewhat unreliable. Particularly if RPT is proposed where aircraft must be reliably working 8 to 11 hours each day and 7 days each week.
IAP/Horizon might argue that their operations are cheaper all round (cheaper aircraft and crews) and therefore they will make money where Qantas-Link is too expensive. Such a notion, I think, would ultimately be seen as shortsighted if things such as accrual costs associate with operating such aircraft are not properly considered.
Suppose IAP were to go down the road of trying to use old and unsuitable aircraft continuously on competitive RPT. It wouldn't be long before other operators using Saab's and DHC-8's would start to 'clean-up' from charter charges associated with break-down rescues of IAP/Horizon's customers. What then is IAP/Horizon to do? Their only choice is to equip with current generation aircraft if they want to compete. Historically, however, IAP has made it's money trading spares and therefore a sea change in business strategy would be needed in their thinking to go the costly route of re-equipping!
Lets wait and see how bold they are!!
The Oracle!
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Got news for you guys . Horizon have 4 Metro 23's on the way. First one arrives on Monday 3rd. Watch this airline - big things are afoot . You can criticise all you like but the airlines still there after all these years and growing . How many other carriers have the guts to expand these days - without begging to the government for bucks - Its airlines like these that Australia needs - not ones proped up with our taxpayers money .
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StallSpin etc I think is close to the money. Might add Grafton as well.
Ballina people are bailing out of parallelogramed SY-GFN-BNA-GFN-SY flights and going to ZL or driving to Cooly to catch a DIRECT service.
Ballina people are bailing out of parallelogramed SY-GFN-BNA-GFN-SY flights and going to ZL or driving to Cooly to catch a DIRECT service.
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 29th May 2002 at 09:16.
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IAP are the owners of Horizon and Aeropelican have apparently also got an aircraft sales and leasing portfolio. Financial backing sources indicate a total asset spread of over $60 million. Parts and sales seem to be big buck$ as I hear their turnover excceds $50 million. Seems like they are one to watch.
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Don't think QLink parking the 1900 has anything to do with economics, they just don"t want anything smaller than a Dash 8. Look at the parked eastern Jetstreams. Media wise Qantas will name whatever reason looks best for them in the press as the reason to contract out services
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IAP/Horizon might have some success in small ports such as Glenn Inness, Inverell and Cooma, etc., simply because the revenue stream is insufficient to promote any competition. Profit potential from these ports is extremely limited, so you wonder why they would bother.
Metros (including the 23) are cheaper to operate than Beech 1900D's, however, they have absolutely no passenger appeal at all. They are excellent for hauling freight around with but awful for hauling humans. If IAP are well funded and with good profits, I wonder why they wouldn't bid to take over Qantas-Links Beech 1900D's (which are here, on the register, with ex-Impulse pilots available) rather than importing an aircraft with limited scope due to it's poor passenger appeal.
So long as IAP remain in the 'shadows' operating into ports that aren't contested, they will retain a 'captive' market. Should they want to expand, however, into contestable ports they would run into the problems with their HS-748's that I mentioned in an earlier post.
Good Luck
The Oracle!!
Metros (including the 23) are cheaper to operate than Beech 1900D's, however, they have absolutely no passenger appeal at all. They are excellent for hauling freight around with but awful for hauling humans. If IAP are well funded and with good profits, I wonder why they wouldn't bid to take over Qantas-Links Beech 1900D's (which are here, on the register, with ex-Impulse pilots available) rather than importing an aircraft with limited scope due to it's poor passenger appeal.
So long as IAP remain in the 'shadows' operating into ports that aren't contested, they will retain a 'captive' market. Should they want to expand, however, into contestable ports they would run into the problems with their HS-748's that I mentioned in an earlier post.
Good Luck
The Oracle!!
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Its all about money. QF cant make money running the 1900's. Impulse barely could. Pax numbers have dwindled since 9/11 and Ansett. Makes sense to me to put on an aircraft type that is cheaper to buy and run to improve the bottom line (return on investment). Lets face it QF are getting out of the 1900's - they are all already sold. If Horizon or someone else does not step up to the plate then its back to the bus for these townships. Really there is no alternative operator in NSW other than Horizon. There is one metro/saab opertor in Qld that could come down - and thats about it. Forget KD/Hazo's - "IF" they get going its SAAB ops only - not suitable for ports like Cooma . Therefore logic tells you that its Metro's or catch the Leyland Bus ! If you cant make these ports work with low cost Metros then we all had better start to re-train as taxi drivers as regional aviation will be finished. They dont have the pax appeal of a 1900 - thats for sure , but they sure have better aerodynamics than a Ford Falcon.
I wish them well - they are the only new entrant I can see capable of keeping us pilots in jobs. I had a call from a friend yesterday who was driving a 320 now is a landscape gardner . I cant see KD/Hazo's surviving long term , that just leaves QF with a reduced network - sad , but aviation is not the career path it was a few years ago.
I wish them well - they are the only new entrant I can see capable of keeping us pilots in jobs. I had a call from a friend yesterday who was driving a 320 now is a landscape gardner . I cant see KD/Hazo's surviving long term , that just leaves QF with a reduced network - sad , but aviation is not the career path it was a few years ago.
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A few facts I know.
One Beech 1900 (VH-FOZ) has been sold to a company in Indonesia
The Other Beech 1900's are very close to being sold to a company in Canada. Apparently just waiting on the cheque.
Cooma has been informed that a Metro (reportedly from Horizon) will be operating in there from mid to late June provided that Horizon can get certain regulatory paperwork completed in time,
i.e. their RPT AOC.
Impulse staff are also being told that Taree will be serviced by the same company- Horizon.
However I think it important to point out here that Horizon is entering this operation at it's own risk. no funding will be given to it by Qantaslink. Ticketing will be through Qantas.
I put emphasis on the words at own risk. Think about it, if in Six or twelve months time if things go bad for Horizon and they cease operating on these routes, Qantas can still say they have never pulled out of a community without an RPT service.
If Qantas can't make money with a 19 seater and apparently not by a long shot than is it that likely that another operator can. Through in other factors like passengers in Taree only have to drive 45-50 mins to Port and jump on a Dash 8 with an F/A holding a warm cup of coffee in a cabin that you can stand up in.
Passengers in Cooma drive a little longer and step onto a jet in Canberra and fly when you want to fly. and if your going to ML or BN go straight there without the stop in SY.
Glen Innes and Inverell these people actually prefer to drive to Armidale and get the Dash which goes straight to SY rather than get up at 4:30 to Catch the Plane at 5:30am.
Loads of 1 and 2 are not uncommon into inverell and Glenn. a C206 is better suited to the run than the metro.
I'm not trying to put down horizon's chances I absolutely wish them the best of luck all I'm doing is stating what i know. never the less is good to seem them out there giving it a go.
One Beech 1900 (VH-FOZ) has been sold to a company in Indonesia
The Other Beech 1900's are very close to being sold to a company in Canada. Apparently just waiting on the cheque.
Cooma has been informed that a Metro (reportedly from Horizon) will be operating in there from mid to late June provided that Horizon can get certain regulatory paperwork completed in time,
i.e. their RPT AOC.
Impulse staff are also being told that Taree will be serviced by the same company- Horizon.
However I think it important to point out here that Horizon is entering this operation at it's own risk. no funding will be given to it by Qantaslink. Ticketing will be through Qantas.
I put emphasis on the words at own risk. Think about it, if in Six or twelve months time if things go bad for Horizon and they cease operating on these routes, Qantas can still say they have never pulled out of a community without an RPT service.
If Qantas can't make money with a 19 seater and apparently not by a long shot than is it that likely that another operator can. Through in other factors like passengers in Taree only have to drive 45-50 mins to Port and jump on a Dash 8 with an F/A holding a warm cup of coffee in a cabin that you can stand up in.
Passengers in Cooma drive a little longer and step onto a jet in Canberra and fly when you want to fly. and if your going to ML or BN go straight there without the stop in SY.
Glen Innes and Inverell these people actually prefer to drive to Armidale and get the Dash which goes straight to SY rather than get up at 4:30 to Catch the Plane at 5:30am.
Loads of 1 and 2 are not uncommon into inverell and Glenn. a C206 is better suited to the run than the metro.
I'm not trying to put down horizon's chances I absolutely wish them the best of luck all I'm doing is stating what i know. never the less is good to seem them out there giving it a go.
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pilot recruitment?
Have they taken all the pilots for these supposed runs? Did most of the slots go internally? or was it an influx of KD or Hazo guys? do they pay well? Captain F/O?
I hope they get up and going, as it would be a shame to see pilots left stranded again......
Montoya to surely win in Canada!
I hope they get up and going, as it would be a shame to see pilots left stranded again......
Montoya to surely win in Canada!
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F1,
I believe all the necessary pilots have been taken for the time being. But there is talk of Saab's in the future and a further intake of pilots. I know there were a few ex Kendell CRJ captains and f/o's taken, a few internal guys and one or two local Bankstown pilots were also taken. Not sure what the captains are getting but believe that f/o's are on 35k plus allowances.
AFD
I believe all the necessary pilots have been taken for the time being. But there is talk of Saab's in the future and a further intake of pilots. I know there were a few ex Kendell CRJ captains and f/o's taken, a few internal guys and one or two local Bankstown pilots were also taken. Not sure what the captains are getting but believe that f/o's are on 35k plus allowances.
AFD
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Aviator in the know??????
I confused by your name considering some of the things you write.
"I cant see KD/Hazo's surviving long term."
Do you really think they'll start a revolution with HS748's and Metro 23's?
I confused by your name considering some of the things you write.
"I cant see KD/Hazo's surviving long term."
Do you really think they'll start a revolution with HS748's and Metro 23's?