F/O's on Jets (Line Training)
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F/O's on Jets (Line Training)
Let me state this straight up. This is not a wind up. Nor is it a thread to start a slanging match amongst us "professional pilots".
About a year or so ago here on PPRuNe, there was several post's pertaining to some pilots "struggling" going from a turboprop onto a new jet type here in Oz.
I am curious whether the new pilots starting say as a new F/O in Virgin (coming from GA and turboprops) are having the same snags, or is the 737 a bit more forgiving than a CRJ.
About a year or so ago here on PPRuNe, there was several post's pertaining to some pilots "struggling" going from a turboprop onto a new jet type here in Oz.
I am curious whether the new pilots starting say as a new F/O in Virgin (coming from GA and turboprops) are having the same snags, or is the 737 a bit more forgiving than a CRJ.
Grandpa Aerotart
In general young guys/girls going from props to RHS jets rarely suffer major problems....older guys, who have been LHS props for decades, struggle to a greater extent when transitioning to jets, particularly straight into the LHS...not all of them by any stretch but it's not uncommon.
From what I've been told, by a Bombadier Test pilot who was involved, the CRJ exercise was made harder still by AN pilots with an adjenda.
Chuck.
From what I've been told, by a Bombadier Test pilot who was involved, the CRJ exercise was made harder still by AN pilots with an adjenda.
Chuck.
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Chimbu,
I have to say that you are right that it was the older guys that had troubles transitioning from left seat turbo-prop to the left seat of the CRJ.
What I dont agree with is that we, the Ansett pilots, had an agenda. That is simply not the case. By all accounts, bombardier data, the Kendell experience was not unusual. I may be wrong but I believe that of the 130-150 pilots that did transition to the CRJ the failure rate in the end would have been less than 10%. Obviously with seniority the initial failure rate was a lot higher as the initial convertees tended to be older.
Anyway, I think this is all well and truly history.
I am glad to see that the Kendell operation (unfortunately minus the CRJs) is still running and I was more than happy to have had the experience of working with a great bunch of people.
I have to say that you are right that it was the older guys that had troubles transitioning from left seat turbo-prop to the left seat of the CRJ.
What I dont agree with is that we, the Ansett pilots, had an agenda. That is simply not the case. By all accounts, bombardier data, the Kendell experience was not unusual. I may be wrong but I believe that of the 130-150 pilots that did transition to the CRJ the failure rate in the end would have been less than 10%. Obviously with seniority the initial failure rate was a lot higher as the initial convertees tended to be older.
Anyway, I think this is all well and truly history.
I am glad to see that the Kendell operation (unfortunately minus the CRJs) is still running and I was more than happy to have had the experience of working with a great bunch of people.
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We have had no problems here with the B1900 pilots making the transition to the B717. At the end of the day, I think it comes down to the individual's capacity to learn, his skill level, and the training environment. The type of aircraft really is irrelevant.
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backspace: The AN pilots most certainly, as I was told, had an agenda, which was applicable primarily to the F/O's who had been stuck in the RHS for up to 10 years. Their argument was that they should get first priority of initial command in the CRJ, an attitude which severely annoyed the KD S340 people. I make no comment about the rights and wrongs of the argument, simply that the agenda DID exist.
In regard to the initial failure rate in Canada, I was under the impression that was caused primarily by the AN management instruction to Bombardier to compress the course length, thereby steepening the already difficult learning curve. If this was indeed the case, then surely the first of the CRJ endorsement crews were on a hiding to nothing. The transition from turbo-prop to jet may have been difficult enough, but to compound the problem in the manner described, in order to get crews "on-line" more quickly was counter-productive, to say the least. How much longer than initially desired were the contract CRJ pilots required, and at what extra cost to the KD operation?
kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
In regard to the initial failure rate in Canada, I was under the impression that was caused primarily by the AN management instruction to Bombardier to compress the course length, thereby steepening the already difficult learning curve. If this was indeed the case, then surely the first of the CRJ endorsement crews were on a hiding to nothing. The transition from turbo-prop to jet may have been difficult enough, but to compound the problem in the manner described, in order to get crews "on-line" more quickly was counter-productive, to say the least. How much longer than initially desired were the contract CRJ pilots required, and at what extra cost to the KD operation?
kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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I wont argue that there were F/Os within the Ansett ranks that did have that view, and probably a lot of captains as well, but that was within Ansett not within the guys at Kendell. The point is though that the failures were nearly all in the initial stages of the training program. All of the Ansett pilots at this stage were either experienced training captains or check captains, there was no agenda, we worked our butts off in order to make the project work. This was supposed to save Ansett $30-40mil a year in operating costs(thats what we were told at the time not the reality of the situation).
As for the training in Canada, initially it was the standard bombardier course (as chosen by the Kendell project team), we modified it along the way to try and help improve the pass rate (such as inserting an extra sim session). Also, as I have said Bombardier themselves expect a certain failure rate in the transition from turbo-prop to jet. I might also add that a contract captain that was high in the training field at a US carrier said that they also had had significant problems converting crews over to the CRJ.
As far as the 1900 to 717 changeover I would guess that the average age of the trainee is less and also, not that I have flown the 717 or its predecessors, that the aircraft is easier to manage. By that I believe that the 717 is fully automated, the CRJ is not.
ITCZ
Is that a complement or do I need to use the spell checker? Maybe I am going blind.
NightOwl
Yes the contract crews were here longer than they should have been but the delivery schedule for the aircraft again was decided by the Kendell project team. Believe it or not there was no failure rate budgeted into the implementation program. There was not even a bugeted sick leave or rec leave program during the introduction.
I dont say all the errors were on the Kendell side. I am sure there were plenty on the Ansett side under the leadership, or lack thereof, of the person who has returned to another Aussie carrier and the one who is slashing and burning his way through the UK.
Anyway, like I said before it is now all history and this was not the right aircraft for the routes it was placed on. One wonders why the people that make all these decisions dont ask the troups, because we all saw it coming!!!!!
As for the training in Canada, initially it was the standard bombardier course (as chosen by the Kendell project team), we modified it along the way to try and help improve the pass rate (such as inserting an extra sim session). Also, as I have said Bombardier themselves expect a certain failure rate in the transition from turbo-prop to jet. I might also add that a contract captain that was high in the training field at a US carrier said that they also had had significant problems converting crews over to the CRJ.
As far as the 1900 to 717 changeover I would guess that the average age of the trainee is less and also, not that I have flown the 717 or its predecessors, that the aircraft is easier to manage. By that I believe that the 717 is fully automated, the CRJ is not.
ITCZ
Is that a complement or do I need to use the spell checker? Maybe I am going blind.
NightOwl
Yes the contract crews were here longer than they should have been but the delivery schedule for the aircraft again was decided by the Kendell project team. Believe it or not there was no failure rate budgeted into the implementation program. There was not even a bugeted sick leave or rec leave program during the introduction.
I dont say all the errors were on the Kendell side. I am sure there were plenty on the Ansett side under the leadership, or lack thereof, of the person who has returned to another Aussie carrier and the one who is slashing and burning his way through the UK.
Anyway, like I said before it is now all history and this was not the right aircraft for the routes it was placed on. One wonders why the people that make all these decisions dont ask the troups, because we all saw it coming!!!!!
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Gentlemen,
The initial CRJ failure rate in Canada was not caused primarily by AN management but rather the KD management. No instruction was givin to Bombardier to compress the course length at all.
The ORIGINAL CRJ project team consisted of KD employees only. At the time the KD Chief pilot and the assistant chief pilot selected the project team and decided how the Bombardier program would operate. Bombardier advised KD on the normal course (minimal course) and options to extend it either in Ground school training, Flight training or both. KD management selected the normal course with the belief that their SF340 drivers would only require minimal training. At the time the Chief pilot was quoted as saying " It's only a big SF340 after all, why do they need more time".
The second mistake made by KD management was to turn down the original offer from South African Express to have KD crew fly the CRJ. Valuable experience could have been gained a whole 12 months prior to the first aircraft arriving in Oz. Thoughts by KD management were that only 50 hours of line training would be required due to the high levels of experience of the senior SF340 pilots. In the end some of these guys ended up with 200 hours training in their logbook and still couldn't pass the final check ride. One of these very pilots was selected by the KD Chief pilot to head the CRJ project team. In the end KD reconsidered the offer of Sth Africa and did send some pilots but much later in the program.
When the first 2 AN pilots joined the project team some major changes were made. The whole project was almost restarted due to CASA rejecting all of the manuals for the high capacity AOC application. Certain KD people were also removed or by passed from the loop. It was the AN pilots who advised Bombardier to lengthen the course by the addition of 4 extra sims. Remember that the first guys in Montreal didn't even have company manuals to learn from as they weren't even published!
A fact often overlooked is that in Montreal all except 2 F/O's passed the CRJ training. Same course and same expectations from the Bombardier Check Captains. It was only the Captains having the problems. Out of those F/O's, 6 were later chosen for Accelerated Command training. All of those guys passed with very high standards. For some of them it was their first ever command.
By the way I have never worked for AN.
The initial CRJ failure rate in Canada was not caused primarily by AN management but rather the KD management. No instruction was givin to Bombardier to compress the course length at all.
The ORIGINAL CRJ project team consisted of KD employees only. At the time the KD Chief pilot and the assistant chief pilot selected the project team and decided how the Bombardier program would operate. Bombardier advised KD on the normal course (minimal course) and options to extend it either in Ground school training, Flight training or both. KD management selected the normal course with the belief that their SF340 drivers would only require minimal training. At the time the Chief pilot was quoted as saying " It's only a big SF340 after all, why do they need more time".
The second mistake made by KD management was to turn down the original offer from South African Express to have KD crew fly the CRJ. Valuable experience could have been gained a whole 12 months prior to the first aircraft arriving in Oz. Thoughts by KD management were that only 50 hours of line training would be required due to the high levels of experience of the senior SF340 pilots. In the end some of these guys ended up with 200 hours training in their logbook and still couldn't pass the final check ride. One of these very pilots was selected by the KD Chief pilot to head the CRJ project team. In the end KD reconsidered the offer of Sth Africa and did send some pilots but much later in the program.
When the first 2 AN pilots joined the project team some major changes were made. The whole project was almost restarted due to CASA rejecting all of the manuals for the high capacity AOC application. Certain KD people were also removed or by passed from the loop. It was the AN pilots who advised Bombardier to lengthen the course by the addition of 4 extra sims. Remember that the first guys in Montreal didn't even have company manuals to learn from as they weren't even published!
A fact often overlooked is that in Montreal all except 2 F/O's passed the CRJ training. Same course and same expectations from the Bombardier Check Captains. It was only the Captains having the problems. Out of those F/O's, 6 were later chosen for Accelerated Command training. All of those guys passed with very high standards. For some of them it was their first ever command.
By the way I have never worked for AN.
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Thanks for that, Riddler. Assuming what you say is true, then it simply goes to prove the old adage "never let the truth stand in the way of a good story".
I guess your denial of ever belonging to AN means you are/were a KD driver?
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I guess your denial of ever belonging to AN means you are/were a KD driver?
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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NightOwl,
How correct you are, on both accounts. I had some good friends working on the project hence the insight. A lot of it was common knowledge amongst employees anyway.
Most KD employees welcomed the AN drivers and the knowledge they could pass on. As "Backspace" said the issue of an Agenda was true however it was as I understand a small group of AN F/O's mainly. They believed that the CRJ should have gone into the AN stable and that KD should remain a Turbo-prop operation only.
The contract drivers were mostly top class. They agreed that the KD contract was the most lucrative most of them had ever seen. Yes they took a sh@tload of money back home with them but that was the only way it could be achieved in the end. Had the differences between the then KD chief pilot, Assistant chief pilot and AN been managed differently at the beginning of the CRJ project then things would have been entirely different.
Such is life.
Regards,
Riddler
How correct you are, on both accounts. I had some good friends working on the project hence the insight. A lot of it was common knowledge amongst employees anyway.
Most KD employees welcomed the AN drivers and the knowledge they could pass on. As "Backspace" said the issue of an Agenda was true however it was as I understand a small group of AN F/O's mainly. They believed that the CRJ should have gone into the AN stable and that KD should remain a Turbo-prop operation only.
The contract drivers were mostly top class. They agreed that the KD contract was the most lucrative most of them had ever seen. Yes they took a sh@tload of money back home with them but that was the only way it could be achieved in the end. Had the differences between the then KD chief pilot, Assistant chief pilot and AN been managed differently at the beginning of the CRJ project then things would have been entirely different.
Such is life.
Regards,
Riddler
Last edited by The Riddler; 30th May 2002 at 14:08.
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Chuck,
How surprising! A great man and what you say is indeed true. Barry offered a wealth of knowledge to the bosses however unfortunately this was not always listened too. He and other contract drivers disagreed with the idea of flying the CRJ like an A320. This was a hangover from the early days when the first 2 AN Capt's (A320) were assigned to KD. At the time the quickest way for KD to be issued the HC AOC was to mirror the manuals / procedures to the AN ones. They did a great job with the task they were dumped with and slowly it was being changed back to Bombardier procedures.
Barry was involved in a car accident whilst back at home. About 6 weeks ago if my memory serves me correctly. Apparently a very lucky man however on the road to a full recovery and will be spotted at the local again soon.
Regards,
Riddler
How surprising! A great man and what you say is indeed true. Barry offered a wealth of knowledge to the bosses however unfortunately this was not always listened too. He and other contract drivers disagreed with the idea of flying the CRJ like an A320. This was a hangover from the early days when the first 2 AN Capt's (A320) were assigned to KD. At the time the quickest way for KD to be issued the HC AOC was to mirror the manuals / procedures to the AN ones. They did a great job with the task they were dumped with and slowly it was being changed back to Bombardier procedures.
Barry was involved in a car accident whilst back at home. About 6 weeks ago if my memory serves me correctly. Apparently a very lucky man however on the road to a full recovery and will be spotted at the local again soon.
Regards,
Riddler
Grandpa Aerotart
God could he drink
I have a stark mental picture of him staggering into a bar at Orchard Towers...tripping over and sending two tables full of beer crashing....he's lying on the floor with this HUGE 'African American' sailor towering over him...he was convinced he was about to die when this dude picks him up and while giving him a big bear hug says "Dat was just da most embarrasing ting I ever saw..so I thort I'd give you a hug"....Barry's eyes were bulging a bit and we nearly wet ourselves laughing.
The evening was all downhill after that
Hadn't heard about the prang....happy that he will be ok...shades of his close call in the headon midair when he was leading the Snowbirds years ago.
Chuck.
I have a stark mental picture of him staggering into a bar at Orchard Towers...tripping over and sending two tables full of beer crashing....he's lying on the floor with this HUGE 'African American' sailor towering over him...he was convinced he was about to die when this dude picks him up and while giving him a big bear hug says "Dat was just da most embarrasing ting I ever saw..so I thort I'd give you a hug"....Barry's eyes were bulging a bit and we nearly wet ourselves laughing.
The evening was all downhill after that
Hadn't heard about the prang....happy that he will be ok...shades of his close call in the headon midair when he was leading the Snowbirds years ago.
Chuck.
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Chuck,
So many stories, so little time (and space) to tell them all. I'm glad to hear that his drinking manners haven't changed. Reminds me of when they tried to burn down their apartment whilst staying in Oz. We rolled around laughing for days after that one.
Riddler
So many stories, so little time (and space) to tell them all. I'm glad to hear that his drinking manners haven't changed. Reminds me of when they tried to burn down their apartment whilst staying in Oz. We rolled around laughing for days after that one.
Riddler
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Having worked many years in sales for a large manufacturers distributor, it was always a mystery to me why an owner would take a perfectly good set of manuals and procedures hard won from real experience and years of operation for a new aircraft in which they had zero experience, throw them in the bin and write their own set of prejudices using the bits and pieces that they thought were relevant.
I mean lets face it, what would the manufacturer know.
I know exactly how the Bombardier guys must have felt.
I still have the teeth shaped scars on my tongue from biting it.
After all the customer is always right you know, even when he is wrong.
I was watching the progress of the CRJ intro into KD via here and elsewhere and it was no surprise that they were having the struggle portrayed.
I can still the hear the dipsh!t local gurus comment after a Garrett Technical Reps superb presentation of the do and dont's in the operation of one of their engines to his pilots and engineers....... "oh well he would say that, after all he works for them, but we are still going to do it my way".
The rep was sent there at considerable expense by us, specifically because of our and Garretts concern for the reputation of their engine on our airframe, large numbers of which were being regularly trashed by that operator due to a complete lack of understanding of its operation by both pilots and engineers.
I was told by the then CP to "run along sonny, when you have as much time as I have I might listen to your bulls hit theories"
We actually seriously considered buying their equipment back.
Needless to say it wasn't his money and he and they went backwards out the door very soon notwithstanding that they were operating an aircraft that was a serious money maker for everyone else and saved us the trouble.
I mean lets face it, what would the manufacturer know.
I know exactly how the Bombardier guys must have felt.
I still have the teeth shaped scars on my tongue from biting it.
After all the customer is always right you know, even when he is wrong.
I was watching the progress of the CRJ intro into KD via here and elsewhere and it was no surprise that they were having the struggle portrayed.
I can still the hear the dipsh!t local gurus comment after a Garrett Technical Reps superb presentation of the do and dont's in the operation of one of their engines to his pilots and engineers....... "oh well he would say that, after all he works for them, but we are still going to do it my way".
The rep was sent there at considerable expense by us, specifically because of our and Garretts concern for the reputation of their engine on our airframe, large numbers of which were being regularly trashed by that operator due to a complete lack of understanding of its operation by both pilots and engineers.
I was told by the then CP to "run along sonny, when you have as much time as I have I might listen to your bulls hit theories"
We actually seriously considered buying their equipment back.
Needless to say it wasn't his money and he and they went backwards out the door very soon notwithstanding that they were operating an aircraft that was a serious money maker for everyone else and saved us the trouble.
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I too am glad to hear that Barry is recovering from that little misshap.
I think the thing to remember hear is that although Barry had good ideas so did the other 20 odd contract captains (who came from a variety of backgrounds), every Ansett pilot off a different type and everyone else that was flying the aircraft. We couldn't reinvent the wheel overnight and even if we could we didn't want to complicate the operation more for the KD crews trying to come to grips with the new operation. As far as I can recollect we undertook three total rewrites of the FCOM in 18 months to incorporate changes, this was an evolving operation - as I suppose they all are. A lot of those changes were to reinsert items from the Bombardier manuals.
Maybe we, Ansett pilots, initially made the operation more difficult than it should have been but that was simply a result of where the starting point was and that was something someone else set.
Riddler
Thanks for the backup I have been trying to explain the situation for quite a while now without pointing too many fingers.
I think the thing to remember hear is that although Barry had good ideas so did the other 20 odd contract captains (who came from a variety of backgrounds), every Ansett pilot off a different type and everyone else that was flying the aircraft. We couldn't reinvent the wheel overnight and even if we could we didn't want to complicate the operation more for the KD crews trying to come to grips with the new operation. As far as I can recollect we undertook three total rewrites of the FCOM in 18 months to incorporate changes, this was an evolving operation - as I suppose they all are. A lot of those changes were to reinsert items from the Bombardier manuals.
Maybe we, Ansett pilots, initially made the operation more difficult than it should have been but that was simply a result of where the starting point was and that was something someone else set.
Riddler
Thanks for the backup I have been trying to explain the situation for quite a while now without pointing too many fingers.
Last edited by backspace; 30th May 2002 at 23:11.
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You justhave to think at 5-6 miles a minute rather than 3 .
Kendell being Kendell only had the
1 FMS
No Auto throttle
No VNAV...............
on the CRJ
Jessuss HElloooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Other operators allow you the luxury of VNAV.
"Metro's with AutoPilot !!!!! Thats why we have Pilots , I'm paying em to fly so they'll fly the Bloody Thing.........
Anyhow, relax and listen to Willie Nelson Sing "Georgia"
or should that be
"Wagga"
Kendell being Kendell only had the
1 FMS
No Auto throttle
No VNAV...............
on the CRJ
Jessuss HElloooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Other operators allow you the luxury of VNAV.
"Metro's with AutoPilot !!!!! Thats why we have Pilots , I'm paying em to fly so they'll fly the Bloody Thing.........
Anyhow, relax and listen to Willie Nelson Sing "Georgia"
or should that be
"Wagga"
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MICHEAL
True but IMHO Richard Collins said it much more succintly, the distance travelled in "the minute" is only interesting.
Most "events" TOPC, Nav Points, TOPD, decelleration etc, are time related on speed v dist.
So if you adjust your thinking to "minutes to" rather than "miles" it is immaterial what the distance is or how fast you are going.
Time Interval is the critical measure as the higher speeds make small mistakes into larger distances.
I think what he was trying to say was, whether the waypoints whizzing underneath you say every 30 "minutes" are 100 miles or 230 miles apart depending on your G/S is academic, it is the "minutes" that drive the cockpit workload.
I wish I could find the article as it has stuck in my mind for I think, over 20 years.
As a wise old pilot once told me "going faster is interesting only in that you wind up further away from home and the kids at the end of the day"
True but IMHO Richard Collins said it much more succintly, the distance travelled in "the minute" is only interesting.
Most "events" TOPC, Nav Points, TOPD, decelleration etc, are time related on speed v dist.
So if you adjust your thinking to "minutes to" rather than "miles" it is immaterial what the distance is or how fast you are going.
Time Interval is the critical measure as the higher speeds make small mistakes into larger distances.
I think what he was trying to say was, whether the waypoints whizzing underneath you say every 30 "minutes" are 100 miles or 230 miles apart depending on your G/S is academic, it is the "minutes" that drive the cockpit workload.
I wish I could find the article as it has stuck in my mind for I think, over 20 years.
As a wise old pilot once told me "going faster is interesting only in that you wind up further away from home and the kids at the end of the day"
