IFR Meat Bombs?
Join Date: Mar 2002
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I' m get sick and tired of trying to dodge these human torpedoes.
There is nothing worse than being in cloud in IFR and hearing the call to drop on the radio and I have been there!!!
I have no problems when it is done safely but when it is done by pilots in IFR conditions I draw the line.
You can all argue to you are blue in the face but if my safety along with my passengers are at risk you can expect me to be
fairly annoyed.
There is nothing worse than being in cloud in IFR and hearing the call to drop on the radio and I have been there!!!
I have no problems when it is done safely but when it is done by pilots in IFR conditions I draw the line.
You can all argue to you are blue in the face but if my safety along with my passengers are at risk you can expect me to be
fairly annoyed.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Alpha Bravo Charlie, you have traffic your twelve oclock,three miles, nine thousand, eight thousand,seven thousand........unverified
Not the kind of traffic advisery you wanna hear on a cloudy day I'm sure.
Not the kind of traffic advisery you wanna hear on a cloudy day I'm sure.
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Hi,
Most of the posts I've read so far have dealt with the jump A/C climbing away from the the DZ thru cloud on the way to 10,000', and then the jumpers leaving said A/C and skydiving thru cloud to land on or near the DZ. So far so good.
My question, then, is how does the jump A/C RTB? Many DZ airfields are not licenced (at least not according to the ERSA anyway) and do not have a naviad, let alone a published Instrument Approach.
Assuming for the moment the A/C does meet IFR requirements, and the pilot is properly licenced/current/recent etc, how does he bring the bird home without risking an encounter with some CG's (Cumulo-Granitis)?
I assume that, as long as VFR approach minima exist at the DZ, a descent should not be a problem. I guess what I'm really asking is, how far into IFR conditions would "IFR Meatbombing" actually go?
Cheers
Most of the posts I've read so far have dealt with the jump A/C climbing away from the the DZ thru cloud on the way to 10,000', and then the jumpers leaving said A/C and skydiving thru cloud to land on or near the DZ. So far so good.
My question, then, is how does the jump A/C RTB? Many DZ airfields are not licenced (at least not according to the ERSA anyway) and do not have a naviad, let alone a published Instrument Approach.
Assuming for the moment the A/C does meet IFR requirements, and the pilot is properly licenced/current/recent etc, how does he bring the bird home without risking an encounter with some CG's (Cumulo-Granitis)?
I assume that, as long as VFR approach minima exist at the DZ, a descent should not be a problem. I guess what I'm really asking is, how far into IFR conditions would "IFR Meatbombing" actually go?
Cheers
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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G'day BaronvonChieftain,
I do not have a copy of the APF document nor the CASA NPRM regarding this. However, my recollection is that the skydivers are seeking to remove the requirement to remain clear of cloud throughout the descent, particularly in freefall.
Given that their opening height is normally between 2,200 and 2,500ft AGL and they are not opening in or above cloud then would it not be feasable that the LSALT in many cases would be below the opening height of the parachutists and therefore in VMC?.
Mad Mick,
Good point re safety of pax. Lets have a hypothetical here. An IFR charter flight has it's direct track over a DZ. If charter aircraft is due o'head DZ at the same time meatbombs are at the door, who has right of way? Bearing in mind that pje ops are holding steadfastly to the pvt ops category.
Does the jump aircraft wait until other aircraft is positively fixed beyone say 10nm fm DZ, or does the charter aircraft divert either as a precaution or as directed by centre and incur costs due to added tk miles.
Like others, I would like to see this go ahead only if it is done IAW the requirements stipulated by CASA and the APF. History though has shown that I'd see more success in teaching pigs to fly.
I do not have a copy of the APF document nor the CASA NPRM regarding this. However, my recollection is that the skydivers are seeking to remove the requirement to remain clear of cloud throughout the descent, particularly in freefall.
Given that their opening height is normally between 2,200 and 2,500ft AGL and they are not opening in or above cloud then would it not be feasable that the LSALT in many cases would be below the opening height of the parachutists and therefore in VMC?.
Mad Mick,
Good point re safety of pax. Lets have a hypothetical here. An IFR charter flight has it's direct track over a DZ. If charter aircraft is due o'head DZ at the same time meatbombs are at the door, who has right of way? Bearing in mind that pje ops are holding steadfastly to the pvt ops category.
Does the jump aircraft wait until other aircraft is positively fixed beyone say 10nm fm DZ, or does the charter aircraft divert either as a precaution or as directed by centre and incur costs due to added tk miles.
Like others, I would like to see this go ahead only if it is done IAW the requirements stipulated by CASA and the APF. History though has shown that I'd see more success in teaching pigs to fly.
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Hi to all you poster's we are now getting some reasonable debate. I'm still waiting to hear the conditions that will apply if this is approved and have been told that it has been by a lift driver but no conditions maybe they would prefer to keep quiet so they can continue to fudge the rules. Islander Jock re opening height what about MB2's and for those who don't understand Tandem MB's they open at 5000' so they can be quietly drifting down in the grey for several minutes the only thing is they will hear is the increasing sound of that IFR baron at 180Kts bearing down on them Thanks Mad Mick. The last time I watched them see previous post those I mentioned were MB2's.We shall wait and see cheers QNIM
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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QNIM,
I will have to check to find the exact reference but I am sure that tandems will be subject to the same requirements as mb1s
that is, clear of cloud when under canopy. Imagine the potential carnage if a load of 16 skydivers all open in cloud. Not knowing which way they are facing or wich way any of the other canopies are headed.
The CASA NPRM, draft CAAP, APF Advisory cirular and risk analysis are available in a single document
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/newrule...prm/0012os.pdf
I will have to check to find the exact reference but I am sure that tandems will be subject to the same requirements as mb1s
that is, clear of cloud when under canopy. Imagine the potential carnage if a load of 16 skydivers all open in cloud. Not knowing which way they are facing or wich way any of the other canopies are headed.The CASA NPRM, draft CAAP, APF Advisory cirular and risk analysis are available in a single document
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/newrule...prm/0012os.pdf
Last edited by Islander Jock; 27th May 2002 at 07:13.
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Parachutist Nav in cloud
Well, thats easy. I knew a bloke that used to carry a wrist compass, so that if he opened in cloud he could at least track into wind. He later upgraded this to a hand held GPS! I can see the future now, HUD on the parachutists helmet visor, displaying GPS information whilst in freefall. GPS would be TSO'd of course, mode C TPX and hey bingo an IFR skydiver in CTA.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Ahhh Spinnerhead me ol mate. But what about the situation where skydivers are NOT in linked formation in freefall in cloud? How do they know in the first place that they are tracking clear of all other skydivers?
I know, TCAS II on the HUD with RA. ie "track left - track left" Reaction time required would impress any 747 C&T captain.
I know, TCAS II on the HUD with RA. ie "track left - track left" Reaction time required would impress any 747 C&T captain.
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We all know that IFR MBs are an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunatly some poor pilot is going to have to stand in a coroners court before some thing is done. Why does it have to come to this before something is done. I sure hope its not me standing in that coroners court.
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Tuesday, June 4, 2002
Two Killed as Skydiver Smashes Through Glider
LONDON (Reuters) - Two people were killed in a freak air
collision over central England on Saturday, when a skydiver
smashed through the wing of a glider sending it crashing to
earth, police and investigators said.
"A freefall parachutist crashed into a glider, ripping its
wing off and there were two fatalities," a spokesman for the
Air Accident Investigation Board told Reuters.
The collision at over 2,000 feet (610 meters) occurred on a
sunny afternoon at the Hinton-in-the-Hedges private airfield in
Northamptonshire, he said.
Northamptonshire police said the one man glider had come
down in a field alongside the airstrip and a police helicopter
was currently scouring the surrounding area for any wreckage
which might give clues as to how the accident occurred.
Despite being considered a dangerous sport, skydiving has a
relatively good safety record.
Two Killed as Skydiver Smashes Through Glider
LONDON (Reuters) - Two people were killed in a freak air
collision over central England on Saturday, when a skydiver
smashed through the wing of a glider sending it crashing to
earth, police and investigators said.
"A freefall parachutist crashed into a glider, ripping its
wing off and there were two fatalities," a spokesman for the
Air Accident Investigation Board told Reuters.
The collision at over 2,000 feet (610 meters) occurred on a
sunny afternoon at the Hinton-in-the-Hedges private airfield in
Northamptonshire, he said.
Northamptonshire police said the one man glider had come
down in a field alongside the airstrip and a police helicopter
was currently scouring the surrounding area for any wreckage
which might give clues as to how the accident occurred.
Despite being considered a dangerous sport, skydiving has a
relatively good safety record.
