NJS-717s ?
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AIPA is definately not the way to go...
The only way forward (IMO) is to get together as a group.
Unite the various pilot councils or at least form a group made up from the various pilot councils so as to improve communication, in the end we are all after the same thing.. we would like to be treated like professionals and be paid accordingly.
You cant blame our AFAP representitives but we could make better use of them by working together.
The only way forward (IMO) is to get together as a group.
Unite the various pilot councils or at least form a group made up from the various pilot councils so as to improve communication, in the end we are all after the same thing.. we would like to be treated like professionals and be paid accordingly.
You cant blame our AFAP representitives but we could make better use of them by working together.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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I agree, we have to get together as a unified group but that is a lot easier to write than achieve.
Why would Impulse and NJS want to be part of a group whose aim is to end their duopoly of regional jet flying? There has to benefits for all!
Maybe this group could be called the Qantas Regional Pilots Association? Just a thought!
Why would Impulse and NJS want to be part of a group whose aim is to end their duopoly of regional jet flying? There has to benefits for all!
Maybe this group could be called the Qantas Regional Pilots Association? Just a thought!
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Qantas does not own National Jet... yet..
my point is that before qantas buy anyone else that just happens to be a dollar cheaper to operate and put a currently owned operation out of business.
the regional pilots should think beyond today.
my point is that before qantas buy anyone else that just happens to be a dollar cheaper to operate and put a currently owned operation out of business.
the regional pilots should think beyond today.
Join Date: Jan 1999
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I believe it is the QantasLink pilot groups that have to get together first. (NJS are not involved) As said previously, until they do they will continue to be their own worst enemy.
Up until now the AFAP has not shown any leadership whatsoever in this mess. What's more neither have any of the pilot groups - many individuals are in it for themselves and not the greater good of the whole group. About time the blinkers were taken off.
Up until now the AFAP has not shown any leadership whatsoever in this mess. What's more neither have any of the pilot groups - many individuals are in it for themselves and not the greater good of the whole group. About time the blinkers were taken off.
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It’s seems quite clear that the regional jet operation within Qantaslink will remain with and be expanded from Airconnex. Surely the majority of Dash 8 pilots would love to progress to a 717 so how would that ever be achieved if Impulse is shut out? Surely the way forward is to pool the Dash 8 and 717 pilots together under ONE Qantaslink pilot group. The Dash 8 pilots would stand half a chance of gaining some progression onto the 717 and the 717 pilots would benefit from the greater representation offered by a combined pilot group. (A combined Qantaslink pilot group would no doubt have brought about a better result for Southern’s pilots) The alternative to joining forces of course is to continue to allow Qantas to “divide and conquer”.
Good luck to you.
AA
Good luck to you.
AA
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Capt C - At this time as you well know NJS are another company. The first thing is for the QL pilots (including Impulse) to get their act together. NJS are another pilot group outside the QF empire and don't feature on the QL lists.
ESSIO2 - If there is it must be in secret! Seems part of the problem? Tell us more!
AA - Agree that ALL the QL pilots must get together including Impulse.
One problem is that the Southern pilots have had progression into Jets where Eastern/Sunstate have not. Natural if there is to be a single list then it must take into account existing arrangements together with progression/promotion opportunities. I doubt if that will be easy!
ESSIO2 - If there is it must be in secret! Seems part of the problem? Tell us more!
AA - Agree that ALL the QL pilots must get together including Impulse.
One problem is that the Southern pilots have had progression into Jets where Eastern/Sunstate have not. Natural if there is to be a single list then it must take into account existing arrangements together with progression/promotion opportunities. I doubt if that will be easy!
Join Date: Mar 2002
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I think you're all dreamin` !!
The QF Board could not care less about its employees or contractors. Its ultimate aim is to make a profit and keep its shareholders happy. Whether it uses its own employees or contractors to achieve this goal depends on overall costs and what ultimately is the cheaper option.
The QF Board could not care less about its employees or contractors. Its ultimate aim is to make a profit and keep its shareholders happy. Whether it uses its own employees or contractors to achieve this goal depends on overall costs and what ultimately is the cheaper option.
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Wing Nut,
If you are correct and you probably are then it would make absolutely no sense for Qlink to setup a B717 operation with NJS.
Realistically, could NJS operate the B717 significantly cheaper than Impulse/Airconnex, if at all. I think the answer would be no.
That would then make the significant costs involved in setting up a new jet operation unjustifiable. even though NJS is already a jet operator the costs will still be high given that it's a completely new aircraft type and if they were in fact competing against Impulse/airconnex with price I would doubt they'll get much help.
Realistically also as mentioned before setting up to Qlink Jet operator's when they are trying to refine the Dash 8 fleet to one company just doesn't make sense.
Good luck to everyone out there I hope that one day there will be a job for everyone.
If you are correct and you probably are then it would make absolutely no sense for Qlink to setup a B717 operation with NJS.
Realistically, could NJS operate the B717 significantly cheaper than Impulse/Airconnex, if at all. I think the answer would be no.
That would then make the significant costs involved in setting up a new jet operation unjustifiable. even though NJS is already a jet operator the costs will still be high given that it's a completely new aircraft type and if they were in fact competing against Impulse/airconnex with price I would doubt they'll get much help.
Realistically also as mentioned before setting up to Qlink Jet operator's when they are trying to refine the Dash 8 fleet to one company just doesn't make sense.
Good luck to everyone out there I hope that one day there will be a job for everyone.
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Amazing after all the initial anti impulse posts and sentiments on this forum and demonstrated at airports now when Impulse is established in the network with shinny new jets and more to come everyone wants to form one united group with them.
Last edited by flipside; 4th Jun 2002 at 21:03.
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Why wouldn't it be cheaper for NJS to operate the 717s than Impulse? Especially if they are to be based on the west coast, where NJS already has extensive infrastructure in place. Administration, engineering facilities, hangars, pilots and fllight attendants.
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Also NJS do not have to pay staff travel & entitlements which must cost QF a fair bit. Maybe someone in the know could tell us how significant an amount this would be.
Do QF still pay the FBT to the Tax Office for all their employees?
Do QF still pay the FBT to the Tax Office for all their employees?
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DJembe56,
You make some good points but if the B717 is bought in to replace the 146 then I can't see Qlink having to much trouble finding crews based on the west coast. And while your correct about maintenance hangars and engineering facilities these could be gradually introduced on the west coast and could probably be even contracted out if required initially. However I fail to see how these costs would be higher the the cost of initially setting up a new type. "time is money" and the time it would take for NJS to take crews off line retrain them in the USA for 5 weeks bring them back with Boeing Pilots who get paid a s*@t load to be out here train them on routes (no pax allowed) with CASA watching for a couple of hundred hours. ground your 146's while this is happening because you don't have enough crew to operate them, meaning QF have to come in and take over some of your routes which they couldn't make a profit on before (thats why they gave them to you in the first place) and thats just the pilots.
Flight Attendants, engineers, OPs staff will all require training whose going to do their job while their off training?
It Costs a lot of Money. A lot more than setting up some basic maintenance and expanding on crews you already have. new routes one flight and thats it. That is why if your in Adelaide today you will see a nice new shinny B717 paying you a visit, should already be there.
Miss Behaviour, Impulse staff only get staff travel on Impulse flights so I can't imagine the cost to Qantas would be much more than one person eating two meals on a flight.
BTW, I'm not saying you guys are wrong and/or stupid I'm just expressing my opinion from having seen the operation start up a few years ago.
You make some good points but if the B717 is bought in to replace the 146 then I can't see Qlink having to much trouble finding crews based on the west coast. And while your correct about maintenance hangars and engineering facilities these could be gradually introduced on the west coast and could probably be even contracted out if required initially. However I fail to see how these costs would be higher the the cost of initially setting up a new type. "time is money" and the time it would take for NJS to take crews off line retrain them in the USA for 5 weeks bring them back with Boeing Pilots who get paid a s*@t load to be out here train them on routes (no pax allowed) with CASA watching for a couple of hundred hours. ground your 146's while this is happening because you don't have enough crew to operate them, meaning QF have to come in and take over some of your routes which they couldn't make a profit on before (thats why they gave them to you in the first place) and thats just the pilots.
Flight Attendants, engineers, OPs staff will all require training whose going to do their job while their off training?
It Costs a lot of Money. A lot more than setting up some basic maintenance and expanding on crews you already have. new routes one flight and thats it. That is why if your in Adelaide today you will see a nice new shinny B717 paying you a visit, should already be there.
Miss Behaviour, Impulse staff only get staff travel on Impulse flights so I can't imagine the cost to Qantas would be much more than one person eating two meals on a flight.
BTW, I'm not saying you guys are wrong and/or stupid I'm just expressing my opinion from having seen the operation start up a few years ago.
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If I may....When Southern aquired the 146 they relied heavily on NJS for training and maintenance. The availability of that resourse must have saved a considerable amount of expense in spite of the sluggish transition. If NJS were to aquire 717's why would QF not see fit to put those 717's on the Impulse AOC initially and have the NJS pilots trained under the Impulse Check and Training program until such time as NJS had built enough operating experience to introduce the 717 on to their AOC with a minimum of fuss. Sending an NJS pilot overseas for five weeks is no different to sending Joe Bloggs. There would be a small balloon in the ranks required to cover the 146 flying for a short period until the 717's started to replace the 146. I just don't see how it is that much cheaper or otherwise to keep the 717 out of the NJS fleet.
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There is no logic in any of this..........
When Southern introduced the 146, they did it under budget. Most thought for good reasons that it was partly to benchmark/cap the costs of NJS. For most of the time they have operated the 146, they have done so at a lower seat cost per km than Airlink (NJS). I guess QF should have been happy with that, but in closing Southern they obviously have grand plans which dont involve saving/making money. The 717s no matter how good they are, are clearly a more expensive option. Not to mention the costs associated with sorting out all the staff issues.
Pitty the grand plan is unknown to most of us including the shareholders. Next AGM should be interesting?
When Southern introduced the 146, they did it under budget. Most thought for good reasons that it was partly to benchmark/cap the costs of NJS. For most of the time they have operated the 146, they have done so at a lower seat cost per km than Airlink (NJS). I guess QF should have been happy with that, but in closing Southern they obviously have grand plans which dont involve saving/making money. The 717s no matter how good they are, are clearly a more expensive option. Not to mention the costs associated with sorting out all the staff issues.
Pitty the grand plan is unknown to most of us including the shareholders. Next AGM should be interesting?
Bottums Up
Triadic, interesting post.
Any time I've heard comment about QF/Southern's introduction of the 146, the suggestion has been that it was several million over budget. I don't know if that is factual as I'm not in a position to know.
Yours is the only claim I've ever heard that the intro was under budget.
Any time I've heard comment about QF/Southern's introduction of the 146, the suggestion has been that it was several million over budget. I don't know if that is factual as I'm not in a position to know.
Yours is the only claim I've ever heard that the intro was under budget.
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Why would QF bother having another B717 operator when they already have a wholly owned B717 operation thats cheap????? If NJS were to get some B717's, paid for out of their own TIGHT pockets then maybe........ The reality is gents, that if you guys at NJS want to have a drive of the B717, then your going to have to resign from NJS and start at the bottom of the Impulse seniority list..............
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qanpulse, (dreamer)
find a post that suggests that NJS pilots, say that they want 717's. this post was started by people from outside NJS and mainly continued by people worried about NJS continueing as it is!!
find a post that suggests that NJS pilots, say that they want 717's. this post was started by people from outside NJS and mainly continued by people worried about NJS continueing as it is!!