Qantas spends $300m on space beds
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Townsville,Nth Queensland
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas spends $300m on space beds
AAP
Qantas spends $300m on space age cocoon beds
SYDNEY, May 20 AAP|Published: Monday May 20, 6:37 PM
International business passengers will relax in "cocoons" that give back massages and convert into beds, under a $300 million program announced by Qantas Airways Ltd today.
The space age seats, designed by London-based Australian Marc Newson (Newson) and made by the US manufacturer BE Aerospace, are designed to increase business class passengers' space and comfort.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the design followed extensive research that showed passengers wanted a seat that they could sleep, eat and work in.
"They also wanted privacy, flexibility and personal space," he said.
The seats, described as "cocoon" style to minimise noise and maximise privacy, are almost two metres long and 63.5 centimetres wide.
They have an individual entertainment screen, a back massage feature, PC outlet and extra storage.
They will be introduced next year, initially on the London and Hong Kong routes.
The move comes as Qantas attempts to turn around its international operations, which recorded a loss of $15.5 million on earnings before interest and tax (EBIT) for the first half of the financial year.
Qantas spends $300m on space age cocoon beds
SYDNEY, May 20 AAP|Published: Monday May 20, 6:37 PM
International business passengers will relax in "cocoons" that give back massages and convert into beds, under a $300 million program announced by Qantas Airways Ltd today.
The space age seats, designed by London-based Australian Marc Newson (Newson) and made by the US manufacturer BE Aerospace, are designed to increase business class passengers' space and comfort.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the design followed extensive research that showed passengers wanted a seat that they could sleep, eat and work in.
"They also wanted privacy, flexibility and personal space," he said.
The seats, described as "cocoon" style to minimise noise and maximise privacy, are almost two metres long and 63.5 centimetres wide.
They have an individual entertainment screen, a back massage feature, PC outlet and extra storage.
They will be introduced next year, initially on the London and Hong Kong routes.
The move comes as Qantas attempts to turn around its international operations, which recorded a loss of $15.5 million on earnings before interest and tax (EBIT) for the first half of the financial year.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was wondering how long it would take for QF to upgrade the level of their cabins. Other international carriers seem to have run away with the goodies in recent years. Maybe now they will realise that short term cost cutting and non upgrades to make the books look rosy for shareholders actually cost more in the long run.
TwinNDB,
part of the delay is intentional. For example, the early in-seat entertainment systems were very unreliable and power hungry, and caused airlines like Sing Air no shortage of maintenance and product non-delivery problems. QF is expecting that the system being installed now on the 400's is reliable enough to make it worthwhile. (its amazing how much time you can kill with Tetris!!)
As far as the Business Class sleepers, the airline was hesitant purely because of the loss of capacity. It has got to the point however that they have no choice as they are quickly becoming the only ones without it.
It will be interesting to see if the Classic fleet gets them as they have been approved for a full cabin interior refurbishment - the final product there will be better than the current 400's. I suspect they wont as they will be mainly on the Japan run.
part of the delay is intentional. For example, the early in-seat entertainment systems were very unreliable and power hungry, and caused airlines like Sing Air no shortage of maintenance and product non-delivery problems. QF is expecting that the system being installed now on the 400's is reliable enough to make it worthwhile. (its amazing how much time you can kill with Tetris!!)
As far as the Business Class sleepers, the airline was hesitant purely because of the loss of capacity. It has got to the point however that they have no choice as they are quickly becoming the only ones without it.
It will be interesting to see if the Classic fleet gets them as they have been approved for a full cabin interior refurbishment - the final product there will be better than the current 400's. I suspect they wont as they will be mainly on the Japan run.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Southern China
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why does Qantas always take a reactionary approach to inflight services etc? A fraction of one fleet (744) have inseat entertainment while CX has had it for years and SQ are upgrading to IFE Mk II. Space beds/cocoons/business class boudoir? Again a reactionary, copycat exercise. BA and SQ are already well established in this market with CX close behind.
I don't fly J class on QF anymore as I refuse to pay a premium to have cabin crew snarle at requests while I sit in a bigger seat. For an airline that is credited with the invention/introduction of business class....standards are plummeting.
Patriotism had me supporting Qantas for a long time but not anymore. I'd rather fly SQ for premium service at the same price or MH for good service at a fraction of the price.
I don't fly J class on QF anymore as I refuse to pay a premium to have cabin crew snarle at requests while I sit in a bigger seat. For an airline that is credited with the invention/introduction of business class....standards are plummeting.
Patriotism had me supporting Qantas for a long time but not anymore. I'd rather fly SQ for premium service at the same price or MH for good service at a fraction of the price.
I'm sure the QF J Class will be great though if its rollout matches the speed of the 744 PTV rollout, the 2 year installation timeline will be breached enormously.
Given the standard of the new J class, you have to wonder why any one would bother with P Class anymore
Given the standard of the new J class, you have to wonder why any one would bother with P Class anymore
Terrain Terrain - you appear to have not understood what Ftrplt said in his post. SQ and CX had major reliability problems with their IFE such that they had to withdraw it as part of their product for some time while they & the IFE manufacturers sorted out the problems - I suspect that the reason SQ is upgrading to IFE Mk2 is that they just can't get Mk1 servicability high enough - their new system is probably similar to the one that QF is currently fitting. QF has a guarantee from the manufacturer for a very high level of servicability - if this is not achieved then there are very significant penalties.
With respect to your comment on speed of modification of the entire fleet, I'm sure that you'd be aware that economically speaking you can only plan to do such a major modification in conjunction with other planned maintenance. Also, because of the huge electrical power requirements of the new system the modifications have to be done to exacting standards - the Swissair MD11 trajedy off the coast of Nova Scotia is an example of what can go wrong if it is not done properly.
BA was the first airline to introduce sleeper business class seats and this has significantly contributed to BA's current financial situation. The new seats take up 50% more floor space than previous generation seats and thus fewer seats are available on each flight for sale. Post Sep 11, there has been heavy discounting of First & Business class seats which has meant that those airlines with larger numbers of seats have been able to come through this period with smaller losses than those that have the new sleeper seats. QF has to update now because they are withdrawing First Class from a number of destinations so the new seat retains the sleeper capability for the business traveller.
With respect to your comment on speed of modification of the entire fleet, I'm sure that you'd be aware that economically speaking you can only plan to do such a major modification in conjunction with other planned maintenance. Also, because of the huge electrical power requirements of the new system the modifications have to be done to exacting standards - the Swissair MD11 trajedy off the coast of Nova Scotia is an example of what can go wrong if it is not done properly.
BA was the first airline to introduce sleeper business class seats and this has significantly contributed to BA's current financial situation. The new seats take up 50% more floor space than previous generation seats and thus fewer seats are available on each flight for sale. Post Sep 11, there has been heavy discounting of First & Business class seats which has meant that those airlines with larger numbers of seats have been able to come through this period with smaller losses than those that have the new sleeper seats. QF has to update now because they are withdrawing First Class from a number of destinations so the new seat retains the sleeper capability for the business traveller.
Now all the QF management need to do is get their staff to be as friendly as those on CX and SQ.
Not even as friendly. Just a little bit friendly would be nice. Even just a smile would be good.
All the (belated) IFE and flat seats in the world won't help if your staff are surly and miserable.
Mr Dixon, your staff need to do more of this----->
and less of this-----------------------------------------> 
Not even as friendly. Just a little bit friendly would be nice. Even just a smile would be good.
All the (belated) IFE and flat seats in the world won't help if your staff are surly and miserable.
Mr Dixon, your staff need to do more of this----->
and less of this----------------------------------------->
In Fact the exchange goes something like this.
ME - BUSINESS CLASS PAX:
----------------------------
Me: "Excuse me, may I please have a Glass of Water".
F/A: "Mmm, well yes OK, In a minute"
after 10 minutes.....
F/A spending a great amount of time in galley chatting.
Me: "Sorry to bother you again, could I get that glass of water when you have a chance please"
F/A: "Well we're quite busy at the moment SIR"
10 minutes more pass.
Me: Gesticulating at empty glass - too afraid to ask.
If I was American I would probably just keep pushing the calll button but I'm Australian and thus a little anal!
F/A: Response.
1 hour passes...'meal' arrives. Drinks offered.
F/A: Oh yeah, you wanned wader dinya...........SPLASH. I got it. some in the glass/thimble thingy and more around the tray and dribbling onto my legs
F/A:
So it's encouraging to know they CAN actually smile!!!!!!!!!
ME - BUSINESS CLASS PAX:
----------------------------
Me: "Excuse me, may I please have a Glass of Water".
F/A: "Mmm, well yes OK, In a minute"
after 10 minutes.....
F/A spending a great amount of time in galley chatting.
Me: "Sorry to bother you again, could I get that glass of water when you have a chance please"
F/A: "Well we're quite busy at the moment SIR"
10 minutes more pass.
Me: Gesticulating at empty glass - too afraid to ask.
If I was American I would probably just keep pushing the calll button but I'm Australian and thus a little anal!
F/A: Response.
1 hour passes...'meal' arrives. Drinks offered.
F/A: Oh yeah, you wanned wader dinya...........SPLASH. I got it. some in the glass/thimble thingy and more around the tray and dribbling onto my legs
F/A:
So it's encouraging to know they CAN actually smile!!!!!!!!!
Al E Vator,
like most places there are good and bad. I wonder what flights you are seeing this on?
Go to Europe in Winter and you get the young, fun smiley people.
Go to Japan any time and you get the senior crusties after the allowances (plus the few youngun's that speak the lingo!)
like most places there are good and bad. I wonder what flights you are seeing this on?
Go to Europe in Winter and you get the young, fun smiley people.
Go to Japan any time and you get the senior crusties after the allowances (plus the few youngun's that speak the lingo!)
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: World
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goeing Boeing
Regarding the sleeper seats on BA, I think you'll find they actually get more seats into J class because they go 2-4-2 across the cabin instead of the conventional 2-3-2. Even though the pitch is greater, the additional seat per row makes up for it. I don't have exact numbers to hand but recall being told this by some BA crew - I initially thought the same as you.
The addition of these seats has obviously cost BA quite a lot however given that it attracts a decent premium and is preferred in the travelling business community, I can only assume it has been a winner for BA. Speaking from personal experience, I stopped flying QF and SQ for the BA sleeper seat. I haven't been on SQ lately but their seat is even better - until QF gets the seats fitted in their a/c, my preference will still be BA, SQ or CX to EU. And just to really frustrate QF, my frequent flyer points go to QF even though the higher fare has been paid to BA!
Of course the only problem BA now face is that others have learnt from their experience and have designed slightly bigger and more comfortable seats, albeit at the cost of existing seat numbers (QF losing 15 J seats with the new model).
Anyway, long live competition!
Regarding the sleeper seats on BA, I think you'll find they actually get more seats into J class because they go 2-4-2 across the cabin instead of the conventional 2-3-2. Even though the pitch is greater, the additional seat per row makes up for it. I don't have exact numbers to hand but recall being told this by some BA crew - I initially thought the same as you.
The addition of these seats has obviously cost BA quite a lot however given that it attracts a decent premium and is preferred in the travelling business community, I can only assume it has been a winner for BA. Speaking from personal experience, I stopped flying QF and SQ for the BA sleeper seat. I haven't been on SQ lately but their seat is even better - until QF gets the seats fitted in their a/c, my preference will still be BA, SQ or CX to EU. And just to really frustrate QF, my frequent flyer points go to QF even though the higher fare has been paid to BA!
Of course the only problem BA now face is that others have learnt from their experience and have designed slightly bigger and more comfortable seats, albeit at the cost of existing seat numbers (QF losing 15 J seats with the new model).
Anyway, long live competition!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the B747-300 fleet are also to undergo a major cabin upgrade to bring them up to the B744 cabin standard. Supposedly you will not be able to tell the difference between a -300 or a -400 cabin, Unless you go to the toilet ofcourse, as the -300's will retain the "flush" type lavs.
The -400's have a Rockwell-Collins IFE system installed. This is progressively replacing the Matsu****a IFE system.The Matsu****a system is then to be fitted to the -300 fleet. All seating will have individual video screens, (including economy), and the Buisness and first class will have large (I think 10 inch) screens. The cabin is also to be fitted with "mood" lighting- a first I believe, which will enable the cabin lighting colour to be changed to suit the mood. For example, if a dive group is travelling, the cabin lighting can be given a blueish colour!
ftrplt- The senior crusties on the Japan runs are also known as "The Yen Men"!
The -400's have a Rockwell-Collins IFE system installed. This is progressively replacing the Matsu****a IFE system.The Matsu****a system is then to be fitted to the -300 fleet. All seating will have individual video screens, (including economy), and the Buisness and first class will have large (I think 10 inch) screens. The cabin is also to be fitted with "mood" lighting- a first I believe, which will enable the cabin lighting colour to be changed to suit the mood. For example, if a dive group is travelling, the cabin lighting can be given a blueish colour!
ftrplt- The senior crusties on the Japan runs are also known as "The Yen Men"!
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Southern China
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going Boeing,
your reply is noted with thanks but I find myself unalbe to agree as:
"I suspect that the reason SQ is upgrading to IFE Mk2 is that they just can't get Mk1 servicability high enough - their new system is probably similar to the one that QF is currently fitting."
Is highly speculative. Irrespective of teething problems experienced it is insufficient to attribute Qantas's delays to waiting for the technology to become reliable etc. Problematic or not, the IFE has been a MAJOR selling point on SQ. The 'bare bones' of my post is really a comment on the fact that Qantas seems to undergo changes only when such services are already well established in the operations of other carriers. Are they relying on the ignorance of the 'Dad n Dave's first o/s holiday' crowd in the hope they don't know that they can get better for less $$$?
"I'm sure that you'd be aware that economically speaking you can only plan to do such a major modification in conjunction with other planned maintenance."
I am most certainly aware of this. However this is a delay any airline must endure. It's equal across the board. The fact is other 'premium service' airlines started years before Qantas. That is the point. That and the fact that if you fly a B777 to Perth or a B747 to LHR with SQ. You get inseat IFE. Qantas are only equipping part of their B747 fleet. One wouldn't expect to see such systems on domestic 737's but how about the 767's? And the incoming Airbus aircraft? Anyone know if they will be supplied ex factory with inseat IFE?
"....significantly contributed to BA's current financial situation"
That comment is totally unfounded
ftrplt:
While MH is subsidised by the Malaysian government, the government imposes heavy restrictions on MH that other fully privitised carriers do not have to endure. Did you know that a Malaysian purchasing an INTL ticket gets free transfers to KL from wherever they live. A most expensive commitment. Furthermore SIA is no longer predicting a loss this year. While their profit will only be a fraction of the previous years, it's a profit nonetheless.
I can't help but think that there is a degree of employee pride creeping in here? My aim is not to sledge. Merely to comment on my observations over 11 years of flying with Qantas that service and standards are constantly slipping aft of the cockpit door. So much so that 11 years is where the ride stops for this little black duck.
TT
your reply is noted with thanks but I find myself unalbe to agree as:
"I suspect that the reason SQ is upgrading to IFE Mk2 is that they just can't get Mk1 servicability high enough - their new system is probably similar to the one that QF is currently fitting."
Is highly speculative. Irrespective of teething problems experienced it is insufficient to attribute Qantas's delays to waiting for the technology to become reliable etc. Problematic or not, the IFE has been a MAJOR selling point on SQ. The 'bare bones' of my post is really a comment on the fact that Qantas seems to undergo changes only when such services are already well established in the operations of other carriers. Are they relying on the ignorance of the 'Dad n Dave's first o/s holiday' crowd in the hope they don't know that they can get better for less $$$?
"I'm sure that you'd be aware that economically speaking you can only plan to do such a major modification in conjunction with other planned maintenance."
I am most certainly aware of this. However this is a delay any airline must endure. It's equal across the board. The fact is other 'premium service' airlines started years before Qantas. That is the point. That and the fact that if you fly a B777 to Perth or a B747 to LHR with SQ. You get inseat IFE. Qantas are only equipping part of their B747 fleet. One wouldn't expect to see such systems on domestic 737's but how about the 767's? And the incoming Airbus aircraft? Anyone know if they will be supplied ex factory with inseat IFE?
"....significantly contributed to BA's current financial situation"
That comment is totally unfounded
ftrplt:
While MH is subsidised by the Malaysian government, the government imposes heavy restrictions on MH that other fully privitised carriers do not have to endure. Did you know that a Malaysian purchasing an INTL ticket gets free transfers to KL from wherever they live. A most expensive commitment. Furthermore SIA is no longer predicting a loss this year. While their profit will only be a fraction of the previous years, it's a profit nonetheless.
I can't help but think that there is a degree of employee pride creeping in here? My aim is not to sledge. Merely to comment on my observations over 11 years of flying with Qantas that service and standards are constantly slipping aft of the cockpit door. So much so that 11 years is where the ride stops for this little black duck.
TT
TT,
thanks for the response. I hate it when you read about SQ's profit the day after you say its going to make a loss.
Not disagreeing with you as such just trying to indicate that I dont believe its reactionary as you seem to indicate; I believe its more of a commercial decision. I know management is aware of all this stuff but its a matter of priorities and timing. For example, if your seats are still full, do you necessarily have to fit the stuff right now when you can maybe wait a few years?? (my thought as an example, not necessarily what I have heard).
The sleeper seats in business is another example. Geoff Dixon has often stated that Qantas would have to eventually follow suit but believes its a bad idea from a profit point of view. Again, if your greater number of Business seats are full its a fair decision to hold off as long as possible, especially when your focus has been on - Ansett, Sept 11, introduction of B737-800, introduction of A330, start up of Australian Airlines (not much going on at the moment!). He has also said that Qantas have been able to design a layout that fits 2 more seats than the BA layout; maybe a contributor to a delay??
From a basic point of view; if it costs the company more dollars to get your business back than they would make from having you back; the company actually makes less money (not saying this was one of the reasons but could be, again my example).
If you know you are going to be second; why not wait for the next leap in technology and install something better? It would be madness to be last and then still install the same thing.
My point about MH is that they can offer cheaper tickets, as they can survive with a loss; Qantas wont survive if it doesnt make a profit.
Not really staff pride, I just get annoyed with all the armchair experts that think its a pretty easy business, and I do believe there are some smart managers in the company working in some interesting and difficult times. (Not calling you specifically an armchair expert, just the general gist of a majority).
thanks for the response. I hate it when you read about SQ's profit the day after you say its going to make a loss.
Not disagreeing with you as such just trying to indicate that I dont believe its reactionary as you seem to indicate; I believe its more of a commercial decision. I know management is aware of all this stuff but its a matter of priorities and timing. For example, if your seats are still full, do you necessarily have to fit the stuff right now when you can maybe wait a few years?? (my thought as an example, not necessarily what I have heard).
The sleeper seats in business is another example. Geoff Dixon has often stated that Qantas would have to eventually follow suit but believes its a bad idea from a profit point of view. Again, if your greater number of Business seats are full its a fair decision to hold off as long as possible, especially when your focus has been on - Ansett, Sept 11, introduction of B737-800, introduction of A330, start up of Australian Airlines (not much going on at the moment!). He has also said that Qantas have been able to design a layout that fits 2 more seats than the BA layout; maybe a contributor to a delay??
From a basic point of view; if it costs the company more dollars to get your business back than they would make from having you back; the company actually makes less money (not saying this was one of the reasons but could be, again my example).
If you know you are going to be second; why not wait for the next leap in technology and install something better? It would be madness to be last and then still install the same thing.
My point about MH is that they can offer cheaper tickets, as they can survive with a loss; Qantas wont survive if it doesnt make a profit.
Not really staff pride, I just get annoyed with all the armchair experts that think its a pretty easy business, and I do believe there are some smart managers in the company working in some interesting and difficult times. (Not calling you specifically an armchair expert, just the general gist of a majority).
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What flights are QF FA's bad on?! Everyone i've been on. Real attitude. QF can accept this or not, but in the business travel world they have a reputation. When was the last time QF won an international service award? Try CX, for example, the difference is astounding.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah!!! Beds for the weary traveller!! Good news!
As a Frequent Flyer, I do have to agree with the comments on Qantas service. There has certainly been a significant drop off in J class service intenationally and since the demise of Ansett, the domestic routes have taken on a cattle class / throw them a box of offal slant.
As a Frequent Flyer, I do have to agree with the comments on Qantas service. There has certainly been a significant drop off in J class service intenationally and since the demise of Ansett, the domestic routes have taken on a cattle class / throw them a box of offal slant.
Geddy, I dont disagree, just stating that it tends to be not on the routes that the junior kids go to. There have been many times where I have been paxing (Business and First) and ashamed to be QF staff, there are other times where the service has been great. Good trips = senior trips = senior F/A's = service??
Any Asian airline will give good service, Asian F/A's tend to all be very good. As a rule they are quite passive which is good from a service point of view but I wouldnt be too keen in an emergency. Most of the Thai F/A's employed by Qantas give great service to the customer.
Give some of the VB lovely's 20 years in the job (if they stay that long) and see how chipper they are then.
Any Asian airline will give good service, Asian F/A's tend to all be very good. As a rule they are quite passive which is good from a service point of view but I wouldnt be too keen in an emergency. Most of the Thai F/A's employed by Qantas give great service to the customer.
Give some of the VB lovely's 20 years in the job (if they stay that long) and see how chipper they are then.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Terrain,
After the cabin upgrade ALL the B747 fleet will have in-seat videos throughout the cabin.
The B767 fleet does not have in-seat videos in economy class as the weight of the equipment (seat boxes, screens, cabling etc) is too great.
The first of the A330s to be delivered are -200 series and these unfortunately will only have in-seat videos in business class. The economy cabin will have "drop-down" video screens which automatically lower from the cabin ceiling when in use. The aircraft will be equipt with all the wiring and boxes for a full IFE setup, but due to time constraits it will be operating at a lower functionality than desired. The aircaft IFE will be upgraded a short time latter, after delivery. Then you will be able to watch a selection of movies or play games to your hearts content!
After the cabin upgrade ALL the B747 fleet will have in-seat videos throughout the cabin.
The B767 fleet does not have in-seat videos in economy class as the weight of the equipment (seat boxes, screens, cabling etc) is too great.
The first of the A330s to be delivered are -200 series and these unfortunately will only have in-seat videos in business class. The economy cabin will have "drop-down" video screens which automatically lower from the cabin ceiling when in use. The aircraft will be equipt with all the wiring and boxes for a full IFE setup, but due to time constraits it will be operating at a lower functionality than desired. The aircaft IFE will be upgraded a short time latter, after delivery. Then you will be able to watch a selection of movies or play games to your hearts content!
