Military Licencing vs Civilian Licencing
Yes, I'm not sure that I'd be prepared to walk out to the aircraft myself rather than be carried out in my stretcher-borne armchair, as required by Defence Instruction A-409-2.
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No doubt ARM OUT THE WINDOW, that is on the proviso that there is still someone to drag the machine out of the hangar, conduct the daily, refuel it and make sure everything is to your liking just in time for your cursary 'once over' just to confirm your position in the pecking order....................................phew its a hard life for the chosen few.
P&B,
What conclusion did I jump too?
I note that you agreed with the generalisation issue......but then you start off by saying "in the main..."
D'OH!
I dont think anyone is disputing the fact that SOME ex Mil drivers will find it hard to adapt to GA, and may not make a go of it. The same arguements applies to the GA guys who fail to adapt to the airlines and the GA guys who fail to adapt to the Mil (one guy on my Mil course had 1000 hrs GA and got scrubbed). What is in dispute is the inference that NO military guys will be able to cope, or that MOST wouldnt cut it. remove that generalisation and I dont think you would get an arguement.
All this of course, is moving away from the topic upon which I think most agreed: that the existing system of requiring a theory pass and 1 flight test for a Civvy rating based on Mil qual is a good idea for CIR, NVFR (without flight test) and QFI rating (straight to grade 2). It is the same reason Chief Pilot quals still require up to 12 months commercial experience - the Mil pilot does need to learn a relatively new set of rules and protocols.
Centaurus has some valid points about life in GA, if a bit emotively stated. I think we can all acknowledge that sometimes the commercial pressures in GA cause a less than adequate outcome - but no one here would extend that to ALL GA ops. Each has his/her own line in the sand about what is and isn't acceptable - and thats what makes this such a good forum.
What conclusion did I jump too?
I note that you agreed with the generalisation issue......but then you start off by saying "in the main..."
D'OH!
I dont think anyone is disputing the fact that SOME ex Mil drivers will find it hard to adapt to GA, and may not make a go of it. The same arguements applies to the GA guys who fail to adapt to the airlines and the GA guys who fail to adapt to the Mil (one guy on my Mil course had 1000 hrs GA and got scrubbed). What is in dispute is the inference that NO military guys will be able to cope, or that MOST wouldnt cut it. remove that generalisation and I dont think you would get an arguement.
All this of course, is moving away from the topic upon which I think most agreed: that the existing system of requiring a theory pass and 1 flight test for a Civvy rating based on Mil qual is a good idea for CIR, NVFR (without flight test) and QFI rating (straight to grade 2). It is the same reason Chief Pilot quals still require up to 12 months commercial experience - the Mil pilot does need to learn a relatively new set of rules and protocols.
Centaurus has some valid points about life in GA, if a bit emotively stated. I think we can all acknowledge that sometimes the commercial pressures in GA cause a less than adequate outcome - but no one here would extend that to ALL GA ops. Each has his/her own line in the sand about what is and isn't acceptable - and thats what makes this such a good forum.
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Centaurus,
Did you create that grubby little culture in the RAAF?You know,the one where macho attitudes and cultures,very suited to creating some of the best fighter pilots,but maybe not so on the non fighter types.
The 707 and P3 crashes,the very nearly C130 crash, were what you would recognise as CRM red flags- hazardous attitudes or cultures.
Take my hat off to RAAF fighter types,world regarded.
The non-fighter culture in the RAAF,history judges harshly.CX and Emirates judge too,quized on our not so proud safety record of the RAAF on interview.
Centaurus,stones in glass houses,hazardous attitudes could kill hundreds in the civilian world,not written up as training accidents.
Did you create that grubby little culture in the RAAF?You know,the one where macho attitudes and cultures,very suited to creating some of the best fighter pilots,but maybe not so on the non fighter types.
The 707 and P3 crashes,the very nearly C130 crash, were what you would recognise as CRM red flags- hazardous attitudes or cultures.
Take my hat off to RAAF fighter types,world regarded.
The non-fighter culture in the RAAF,history judges harshly.CX and Emirates judge too,quized on our not so proud safety record of the RAAF on interview.
Centaurus,stones in glass houses,hazardous attitudes could kill hundreds in the civilian world,not written up as training accidents.
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MT Edelstone56
Your point is lost on me. Both Emirates and Cathay are full of ex military trash haulers and Fish heads. I challenge you to find a military in the world with a safety record any better than the RAAF. I guess it is beyond your GA grasp to realise that the reason military pilots don't have to contend with the petty rubbish that is GA, is that in our world the challenges are to go to war and come home safely, not to worry about what should or shouldn't be in the MR. It is inherent in that type of operation that there must be a degree of pressing the envelope. That is why the military has the culture that it does. Admittedly, the need for it is fast dissapearing with better sims and better documentation generally,etc. but there is a reason why it developed in the manner it did, and there is a reason now why it is being eradicated.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
Your point is lost on me. Both Emirates and Cathay are full of ex military trash haulers and Fish heads. I challenge you to find a military in the world with a safety record any better than the RAAF. I guess it is beyond your GA grasp to realise that the reason military pilots don't have to contend with the petty rubbish that is GA, is that in our world the challenges are to go to war and come home safely, not to worry about what should or shouldn't be in the MR. It is inherent in that type of operation that there must be a degree of pressing the envelope. That is why the military has the culture that it does. Admittedly, the need for it is fast dissapearing with better sims and better documentation generally,etc. but there is a reason why it developed in the manner it did, and there is a reason now why it is being eradicated.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
P & B,
I can assure you that I've done a good deal more than give my aircraft a 'cursory once over'; on various military types, I've worked on them (under supervision of techos), refuelled and re-oiled them countless times, cleaned them, pushed them in and out of hangars, dug them out of bogs, BF, AF and TA'd them, loaded them with ordnance, slept under or in them, and of course flown them, as have numerous others before me (and as numerous others will do). So get your facts straight, or are you simply enjoying winding people up?
MT Edelstone,
You just don't make any sense.
The fighter types, as you call them, have much the same work ethic and CRM outlook as the majority of the rest of RAAF aircrew.
Uninformed people, such as you appear to be, believe in media 'Top Gun' images; in reality a good number of those who start out on other types end up on fighters.
Those well-known accidents you mention certainly do raise serious CRM issues, nobody would suggest otherwise, but it would take a brave or stupid person to claim that these issues don't extend in some way to all areas of aviation, and indeed to the fighter culture. The RAAF works to try to overcome these problems by education, same as anyone else.
To suggest that history judges the non-fighter RAAF harshly is to ignore every good piece of work done in SAR, flood and bushfire relief, peace-keeping forces and every other bloody thing that they have gone and done. So wind your neck in!
I can assure you that I've done a good deal more than give my aircraft a 'cursory once over'; on various military types, I've worked on them (under supervision of techos), refuelled and re-oiled them countless times, cleaned them, pushed them in and out of hangars, dug them out of bogs, BF, AF and TA'd them, loaded them with ordnance, slept under or in them, and of course flown them, as have numerous others before me (and as numerous others will do). So get your facts straight, or are you simply enjoying winding people up?
MT Edelstone,
You just don't make any sense.
The fighter types, as you call them, have much the same work ethic and CRM outlook as the majority of the rest of RAAF aircrew.
Uninformed people, such as you appear to be, believe in media 'Top Gun' images; in reality a good number of those who start out on other types end up on fighters.
Those well-known accidents you mention certainly do raise serious CRM issues, nobody would suggest otherwise, but it would take a brave or stupid person to claim that these issues don't extend in some way to all areas of aviation, and indeed to the fighter culture. The RAAF works to try to overcome these problems by education, same as anyone else.
To suggest that history judges the non-fighter RAAF harshly is to ignore every good piece of work done in SAR, flood and bushfire relief, peace-keeping forces and every other bloody thing that they have gone and done. So wind your neck in!
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AOTW, you should not dignify the vindictive comments made by P&B with a response. You are well above them as a person and as a professional pilot. That this person believes they are in such a position as to pass such insulting judgements about you is beyond belief and illustrates to all who read this topic what type of person P&B is.
P&B, you have no idea who you are talking about and I would suggest you educate yourself before making any further stupid remarks. "cursary 'once over' just to confirm your position in the pecking order".............spare me you to$$er.
P&B, you have no idea who you are talking about and I would suggest you educate yourself before making any further stupid remarks. "cursary 'once over' just to confirm your position in the pecking order".............spare me you to$$er.
Last edited by RPPT; 23rd May 2002 at 07:34.
MT Edelstone56,
Are you inviting a full review of the fast jet accidents (and incidents) for the last 10 years and a quick comparison with transport and similar types?
I find your comments divisive and quite confusing.
P&B, it's a shame your memories of life in the service are not more pleasant.
Gibbo
Are you inviting a full review of the fast jet accidents (and incidents) for the last 10 years and a quick comparison with transport and similar types?
I find your comments divisive and quite confusing.
P&B, it's a shame your memories of life in the service are not more pleasant.
Gibbo
Last edited by Gibbo; 23rd May 2002 at 07:25.
I know I took the bait there, RPPT, but sometimes you've got to!
I wouldn't put myself above or below anyone, that's probably the whole crux of why we're carrying on like school kids here.
I don't know these people from a bar of soap, I'm just responding to what I consider to be sweeping generalisations and uninformed gibber.
I wouldn't put myself above or below anyone, that's probably the whole crux of why we're carrying on like school kids here.
I don't know these people from a bar of soap, I'm just responding to what I consider to be sweeping generalisations and uninformed gibber.
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Yes, agreed AOTW. I just get a little bit worked up when someone has to resort to throwing malicious insults about someone they don't know when it appears they have run out of informed and reasonable comments. That's what a few beers and few glasses of Californian Chardonnay does to me!! 
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AOTW, GIBBO and RPPT
You 3 guys really do have some serious issues to wade through; the first one being your misgotten belief that you are somehow better than all the other players in the aviation gene pool.
Reality check troopers.......you're not!:o
Reality check troopers.......you're not!:o
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Very sensitive gentleman-insecurity?Centaurus is on a high horse,slagging off about GA(correct in some instances).I`m just asking him to sit back and have a look at his yard from our perspecive.
RAAF fighter ops are world regarded,a fact .
RAAF non-fighter ops,rear echelon,transport or whatever is a poor model.Harsh generalisation but the accidents and near accidents proof.Foreign airlines do take a lot of exRAAF pilots,my point was,such a stand out are these accidents civvy pilots quized on where the RAAF has gone wrong.
Where did this hazardous gung ho culture come from?The seriousness of which some of the above posters take themselves may be proof.To write it off as war culture a CRM red flag transgressing basic airmanship.
The poster above,I would put my money on the RAAF graduate too,in his PC9.I would put my money on the civy,in his light twin at night IFR,with an attitude borne of caution and self-preservation(no ejection seat either).When your all grown up you will realise the following,a percentage of RAAF pilots outstanding,a percentage good and a percentage weak.
Good to see you fellows inviting discussion and not minding someone shooting back.
Finally,in Hong Kong the other day,drinking away with a couple of the good ol boys,couple of exRAAFies too,love Hornet war stories but guys,Caribous!Can we talk about the footy?
RAAF fighter ops are world regarded,a fact .
RAAF non-fighter ops,rear echelon,transport or whatever is a poor model.Harsh generalisation but the accidents and near accidents proof.Foreign airlines do take a lot of exRAAF pilots,my point was,such a stand out are these accidents civvy pilots quized on where the RAAF has gone wrong.
Where did this hazardous gung ho culture come from?The seriousness of which some of the above posters take themselves may be proof.To write it off as war culture a CRM red flag transgressing basic airmanship.
The poster above,I would put my money on the RAAF graduate too,in his PC9.I would put my money on the civy,in his light twin at night IFR,with an attitude borne of caution and self-preservation(no ejection seat either).When your all grown up you will realise the following,a percentage of RAAF pilots outstanding,a percentage good and a percentage weak.
Good to see you fellows inviting discussion and not minding someone shooting back.
Finally,in Hong Kong the other day,drinking away with a couple of the good ol boys,couple of exRAAFies too,love Hornet war stories but guys,Caribous!Can we talk about the footy?
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Melchett
Dare I say it old chap; but you've probably done your dosh!
Mt Edelstone56 says it more succincly though.
As an aside, would you guys like to indicate which particular service you did time with? I bet the majority here are ex-RAAF by the tone of the thread and the size of the egos. It is an established fact that most over-inflated egos are a result of the 'club' culture and not necessarily indicative of any 'real-world' experiences when it comes to the RAAF component of the Australian Services. Pity but true.:o
Mt Edelstone56 says it more succincly though.
As an aside, would you guys like to indicate which particular service you did time with? I bet the majority here are ex-RAAF by the tone of the thread and the size of the egos. It is an established fact that most over-inflated egos are a result of the 'club' culture and not necessarily indicative of any 'real-world' experiences when it comes to the RAAF component of the Australian Services. Pity but true.:o
Last edited by Pitch and Break; 24th May 2002 at 00:08.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF fighter OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF bomber OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF transport OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF maritime OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in airline OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in G/A OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There are just as many, if not more, examples of brilliant performances in all of the above fields.
Every profession has them, the good, the bad and the ugly! Its my belief that the percentage probably differs little as well.
RAAF pilots can suffer ego problems with lack of real world exposure. This is one of the reasons for the large pilot exchange program and the cost spent on exercising with foreign forces.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF bomber OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF transport OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in RAAF maritime OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in airline OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There have been stupid, commonsense defying accidents and/or incidents in G/A OPS. They will happen again in the future.
There are just as many, if not more, examples of brilliant performances in all of the above fields.
Every profession has them, the good, the bad and the ugly! Its my belief that the percentage probably differs little as well.
RAAF pilots can suffer ego problems with lack of real world exposure. This is one of the reasons for the large pilot exchange program and the cost spent on exercising with foreign forces.
Pitch and Break may well be "ex-military with 20 years service", but from the rubbish he has written he is obviously NOT an ex- military PILOT - he just wishes he was. His opinions of military pilots are worthless as they are obviously coloured by his envy of military pilots and the fact that he wasn't good enough to become one.
P&B,
Happy to share.
I am an ex AAAvn recce (Kiowa) pilot. Left ARA after 10 years and went civvy flying. Spend less time flying now than in management roles, but still enjoy being invited back to various jobs as a part-timer. Recently did the bushfires in NSW and last big job prior was the Sydney Olympics.
Love flying and the industry. I was brought up in GA, my old man is a career lighty instructor with over 20,000 hours.
I don't think that I am better than the next bloke, but I do try to be good at what I do.
Being grouped with AOTW puts me in good company! probably RPPT too.
Your turn mate!
Gibbo
Happy to share.
I am an ex AAAvn recce (Kiowa) pilot. Left ARA after 10 years and went civvy flying. Spend less time flying now than in management roles, but still enjoy being invited back to various jobs as a part-timer. Recently did the bushfires in NSW and last big job prior was the Sydney Olympics.
Love flying and the industry. I was brought up in GA, my old man is a career lighty instructor with over 20,000 hours.
I don't think that I am better than the next bloke, but I do try to be good at what I do.
Being grouped with AOTW puts me in good company! probably RPPT too.
Your turn mate!
Gibbo
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P & B
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. You may think you do, but you don't.
If AOTW is who I think he is then you've also picked the wrong bloke to get stuck into. There may be no shortage of arrogant and egotistical individuals in all types of aviation, but he isn't one of them.
I'm sorry that you've got an axe to grind for some reason, but you're really not doing yourself any favours here.
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. You may think you do, but you don't.
If AOTW is who I think he is then you've also picked the wrong bloke to get stuck into. There may be no shortage of arrogant and egotistical individuals in all types of aviation, but he isn't one of them.
I'm sorry that you've got an axe to grind for some reason, but you're really not doing yourself any favours here.