False Advertising
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Ok BIK, so that form of justification may be used....and he would probably be the only one in the professional arena to be satisfied with it......but you really expect other professionals to accept it? 
I still think its wrong that the public can be misled this way, especialy when it comes to issues on safety
Cheers
P.O.M
I still think its wrong that the public can be misled this way, especialy when it comes to issues on safety
Cheers
P.O.M
Join Date: Dec 2000
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I think we need to give more credit to the budding trainee or client. You can read all the hype you want but you know you are going to be fed B..sh..t. As soon as you walk through the front door of a school, talk to one of the Instructors or CFI, see the training aircraft, look at the training schedule you can assess pretty quickly which is a good school and which is an ordinary school. The hype on that website alone would put me off going there. Everything in moderation - including the hard sell.
Join Date: May 2002
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Facts
Well, hadn't bothered with rumour mongerers before now but feel compelled to put a few records straight.
Let's start with the most recent of the incidents refered to. I would like to start here because I was Pilot In Command of that particular training flight. I have been asked if there were 3 greens when my student and I landed that Seneca and the answer is that there were STILL 3 greens when the aircraft was resting on its right wing! The leg was locked even thought the top of the trunion had departed the aircraft.
Cont...
Let's start with the most recent of the incidents refered to. I would like to start here because I was Pilot In Command of that particular training flight. I have been asked if there were 3 greens when my student and I landed that Seneca and the answer is that there were STILL 3 greens when the aircraft was resting on its right wing! The leg was locked even thought the top of the trunion had departed the aircraft.
Cont...
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Facts Continued
The next day I was called to see the damage and discuss the cause of the incident. I arrived at the maintenance hangar to be greeted by one engineer by the phrase "Here he is, the crash test dummy!” How close he was to the truth - he did not yet know.
The insurance assessor then showed me the inspection panel that had been removed thus revealing an undamaged (not over stressed, not scuffed - nothing) locking bolt lose within the wing. No locking bolt - all of the bearings simply fell apart. The leg still locked but departed from the wing during the landing roll. It seems then that I was indeed the crash test DUMMY who was stupid enough to expect the landing gear to actually operate as advertised, at least one more time...
Suffice it to say *** *********'s insurance company was not called upon to pay for the repair of the aircraft.
Of course it was my side of the aircraft that collapsed so - no more tiny teddies for me!
The insurance assessor then showed me the inspection panel that had been removed thus revealing an undamaged (not over stressed, not scuffed - nothing) locking bolt lose within the wing. No locking bolt - all of the bearings simply fell apart. The leg still locked but departed from the wing during the landing roll. It seems then that I was indeed the crash test DUMMY who was stupid enough to expect the landing gear to actually operate as advertised, at least one more time...
Suffice it to say *** *********'s insurance company was not called upon to pay for the repair of the aircraft.
Of course it was my side of the aircraft that collapsed so - no more tiny teddies for me!
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More Facts
As for our most recent offroad enthusiast - when you can train, brief and properly authorise a person to fly an aircraft and that person decides to operate contrary to his training and briefing when solo. What can you do? There but by the grace of God goes anyone else! Take care my fellow instructors!
There was no defect found with the aircraft and even after a night upside down with fuel leaking into the sand, when righted, fuel flowed into the carburetor and there was exactly the calculated amount found in the fuel system. Reserves and unusable and all.
CASA made no recommendations - however I did!
Lastly the offroad enthusiast before my time. What can you do when a licenced pilot hires an aircraft and decides at an outlanding to take demonstrably insufficient fuel? And before you all get hot and flustered by this one - did you know that *** ********* did not grant the person in question their licence?
There was no defect found with the aircraft and even after a night upside down with fuel leaking into the sand, when righted, fuel flowed into the carburetor and there was exactly the calculated amount found in the fuel system. Reserves and unusable and all.
CASA made no recommendations - however I did!
Lastly the offroad enthusiast before my time. What can you do when a licenced pilot hires an aircraft and decides at an outlanding to take demonstrably insufficient fuel? And before you all get hot and flustered by this one - did you know that *** ********* did not grant the person in question their licence?
Join Date: May 2002
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All the Facts
It could be argued then that the phrase "our pilots" being incident free is not so far from the truth if you were to consider the record of pilots EMPLOYED by *** ********* (hope you are all counting carefully) involved in incidents where there was blame on the part of the Company Pilot In Command of any flight.
As for 60,000 hours - it only takes 8 pilots to fly those hours in the time frame given if they worked as many hours as I did, per year in my association with *** *********.
Whilst you may not always see eye to eye with the "Small Man", You cannot deny that he is a successful businessman. Perhaps that is why he annoys so many people.
How many of you have had an interest free loan from him, to help you along the way in your career? There are plenty out there!
And with all things "caveat emptor"! This applies to EVERYONE!
As for 60,000 hours - it only takes 8 pilots to fly those hours in the time frame given if they worked as many hours as I did, per year in my association with *** *********.
Whilst you may not always see eye to eye with the "Small Man", You cannot deny that he is a successful businessman. Perhaps that is why he annoys so many people.
How many of you have had an interest free loan from him, to help you along the way in your career? There are plenty out there!
And with all things "caveat emptor"! This applies to EVERYONE!
WE all know who the little fella is.
1. Truth in advertising-no such legislation in Australia. However I understand it can be illegal to make unsubstantiated claims about a product.....wrinkle cream, hydro elasty crap that they keep conning women into buying comes to mind.
2. If the present CFI/CP leaves (?) Casa may look at the rate of turn over of CFI/CP. Unfortunately the little guy thinks HE is da man.
3. CFI yes he is reaping what he has sown but also damaging a fragile industry.
1. Truth in advertising-no such legislation in Australia. However I understand it can be illegal to make unsubstantiated claims about a product.....wrinkle cream, hydro elasty crap that they keep conning women into buying comes to mind.
2. If the present CFI/CP leaves (?) Casa may look at the rate of turn over of CFI/CP. Unfortunately the little guy thinks HE is da man.
3. CFI yes he is reaping what he has sown but also damaging a fragile industry.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Um, maybe I'm being a little picky, but 3g 2w by your own admissions, you were PIC of a/c when gear problem occurred. The fact that the gear collapsed of course may well not be attributable to you. However, I do think it qualifies as an incident. That being so, I then have to take exception to the advertising of Incident/Accident Free, whether flown by the companies own pilots or not. You can't have your cake and eat it too. After all, that is the subject of the thread.
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Dale,
I cannot and do not deny that you have a valid point.
Overall, what I wish to convey is that there are ALWAYS two sides to every story and that we should all seek the truth as should any potential customer of any flight training or charter company.
The "Small Man" has enough of a customer base who are served satisfactorily by his company to make him the success that he is. If he was all or indeed most of the things, to most people, that the majority of this thread purport him to be - he would have no custom!
Every operator is critical of every other operator on some level or other. We need to be mature enough to acknowledge that each of us does things in a different way and the industry and the learning experience is enriched by this diversity.
Safe and happy flying to you and to all!
I cannot and do not deny that you have a valid point.
Overall, what I wish to convey is that there are ALWAYS two sides to every story and that we should all seek the truth as should any potential customer of any flight training or charter company.
The "Small Man" has enough of a customer base who are served satisfactorily by his company to make him the success that he is. If he was all or indeed most of the things, to most people, that the majority of this thread purport him to be - he would have no custom!
Every operator is critical of every other operator on some level or other. We need to be mature enough to acknowledge that each of us does things in a different way and the industry and the learning experience is enriched by this diversity.
Safe and happy flying to you and to all!
Seasonally Adjusted
3 Greens 2 Wheels...I would have to agree with you on one fundamental point...no more tiny teddies for you !!
I have been an 'off and on again' customer of the person in question for many years and have no complaints. He has managed to keep the company going through some particularly tough times.
I have been an 'off and on again' customer of the person in question for many years and have no complaints. He has managed to keep the company going through some particularly tough times.
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3G 2W, please don't misunderstand me, absolutely no reflection upon yourself, and since I am from the opposite side of the country I do not know the personalities involved. Simply a case of comment on the advertising method used, as per the original thread. In any case, as far as your incident was involved it is simply a case of "There but for the grace, etc etc." Seriously scary matter, I'm sure. Better days to you.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Bwaahahaha, I'm with towering Q on this one, no more tiny teddies for you J.
I will grudgingly admit that the two instructors I was flying with knew there stuff....and taught well (I think 3g-2w is one that I have managed to scare), but I still dont like the "little guy" for reasons I shan't publish here.
I will grudgingly admit that the two instructors I was flying with knew there stuff....and taught well (I think 3g-2w is one that I have managed to scare), but I still dont like the "little guy" for reasons I shan't publish here.
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3G 2W,
The original posting was only to ask peoples opinions on the ethics of advertising after I saw a particular website.
I'm not interested in starting rumours, in any way belittling the abilities of the pilots at that school or making wild stabbs at what may have caused any of the accidents, unfortunately aviation is a high risk area where accidents do and will happen. If a school or company has not had an incident or accident then they are lucky indeed.
As you yourself said,
so accidents shouldn't be used as a measure of a schools instructing ability.
In the few dealings I've had with 'The Little Man' I have found him hard to take, but like mentioned earlier, he is obviously a good business man to have survived this long in an up and down business like aviation.
You have posted like you're no longer there, have you since moved on?
Safe flying all
Cheers
P.O.M
The original posting was only to ask peoples opinions on the ethics of advertising after I saw a particular website.
I'm not interested in starting rumours, in any way belittling the abilities of the pilots at that school or making wild stabbs at what may have caused any of the accidents, unfortunately aviation is a high risk area where accidents do and will happen. If a school or company has not had an incident or accident then they are lucky indeed.
As you yourself said,
when you can train, brief and properly authorise a person to fly an aircraft and that person decides to operate contrary to his training and briefing when solo. What can you do?
In the few dealings I've had with 'The Little Man' I have found him hard to take, but like mentioned earlier, he is obviously a good business man to have survived this long in an up and down business like aviation.
You have posted like you're no longer there, have you since moved on?
Safe flying all
Cheers
P.O.M
