300 Virgin Pilots!!
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300 Virgin Pilots!!
300 VB pilots by the end of 2002, according to the daily.
Given the palpable assertions of Spruce and the boys that there will be NO future direct intake captains. Given also that (on other posts )most NEW recruits have low time (1500hrs) or no jet time.
May I ask how this is to be achieved?
5yrs right seat is usual and most often needed. Pilots with little or no right seat time become despotic, postulating, tunnel-visioned assholes when they swap seats. I know 'cause I flew with them.
Maybe place the new guys on a 5yr contract to allow expansion without bitterness????
Given the palpable assertions of Spruce and the boys that there will be NO future direct intake captains. Given also that (on other posts )most NEW recruits have low time (1500hrs) or no jet time.
May I ask how this is to be achieved?
5yrs right seat is usual and most often needed. Pilots with little or no right seat time become despotic, postulating, tunnel-visioned assholes when they swap seats. I know 'cause I flew with them.
Maybe place the new guys on a 5yr contract to allow expansion without bitterness????
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Is it really true that individual merit plays less part that who you know in their selection process?
If so, I hope the guys and gals have plenty of friends.
I would have thought that becoming a "boys club", would have been contry to the warm and fuzzy, all's fair, Branson ethos.
If so, I hope the guys and gals have plenty of friends.
I would have thought that becoming a "boys club", would have been contry to the warm and fuzzy, all's fair, Branson ethos.
I reckon that what we are seeing here is the application of "other airline' thinking to VB's situation.
It is the old " At airline X we had to do 5 years in the right seat, and we needed every minute of it.." thinking.
In europe, a far more demanding operational environment, pilots with very low experience - when compared to the average VB intake pilot - are taking command of 737, 757 and bigger...
I don't believe that you need 3-4000 hours on type to make an effective commander. In a lot of cases the high time in the right hand seat stifles thinking and makes it hard for the candidate to progress to the other side of the aeroplane - I think everyone will agree that a different mindset is required when making the change..
in my experience there is a mix of experience levels joining VB, some low time guys, mixed with very experienced regional Captains.
many have progressed to Command with 500 hrs on type and are doing very well.
It is the old " At airline X we had to do 5 years in the right seat, and we needed every minute of it.." thinking.
In europe, a far more demanding operational environment, pilots with very low experience - when compared to the average VB intake pilot - are taking command of 737, 757 and bigger...
I don't believe that you need 3-4000 hours on type to make an effective commander. In a lot of cases the high time in the right hand seat stifles thinking and makes it hard for the candidate to progress to the other side of the aeroplane - I think everyone will agree that a different mindset is required when making the change..
in my experience there is a mix of experience levels joining VB, some low time guys, mixed with very experienced regional Captains.
many have progressed to Command with 500 hrs on type and are doing very well.
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Wow! 300 Virgin pilots!
But not for long I hope as VB has the sexyist cabin staff ladies.
..........................................................
Please Lord, the devil in me made me do it
But not for long I hope as VB has the sexyist cabin staff ladies.
..........................................................
Please Lord, the devil in me made me do it
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Dehavillanddriver
You are quite right. It doesn't take 3-4000 on type before you are considered an effective commander.
It's just that up untill the events of Sept. it was more to do with supply and demand of pilots.
With the well documented world shortage of pilots, it wasn't uncommon to find a 500 hr pilot in the right hand seat of a 737, especially in Europe, as there were no others available with more experience to take the posi. No problem really, as long as the pilot is put through an effective C&T program that deems he/she as satisfactory.
Now if this pilot shortage was still an issue , which it is most definately not, then low time guys and gals getting commands on jets wouldn't raise an eyebrow. But at the mo, there is an over supply of very experienced pilots on these types which unfortunately raises the bar again.
I think the only reason pilots in this country were sitting in the right hand seat for 3-4000 hrs before a command was because there was nothing happening in the airlines for such a long time and no upgrades were up for grabs.
You are quite right. It doesn't take 3-4000 on type before you are considered an effective commander.
It's just that up untill the events of Sept. it was more to do with supply and demand of pilots.
With the well documented world shortage of pilots, it wasn't uncommon to find a 500 hr pilot in the right hand seat of a 737, especially in Europe, as there were no others available with more experience to take the posi. No problem really, as long as the pilot is put through an effective C&T program that deems he/she as satisfactory.
Now if this pilot shortage was still an issue , which it is most definately not, then low time guys and gals getting commands on jets wouldn't raise an eyebrow. But at the mo, there is an over supply of very experienced pilots on these types which unfortunately raises the bar again.
I think the only reason pilots in this country were sitting in the right hand seat for 3-4000 hrs before a command was because there was nothing happening in the airlines for such a long time and no upgrades were up for grabs.
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If you have just 500hours on "airline" aircraft then you have perhaps only had the one Simulator cyclic check - I'm not sure that you would have had enough exposure to the number of possible system faults or time to practise team skills, assertion, communication etc. Granted though some airlines thinking of 5 years is a little extreme, so I'll say at least 4 cyclic sims.
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I believe much more importantly than time on type is
EXPOSURE, EXPOSURE TO EVERYTHING.
It takes the first 1000hrs on a jet to feel "at home" and then TIME to experience the traps.
There are plenty of cases overseas and here of rapid promotion, little experience (both total and on type) and new type that have ended in disaster. ( AN 747 rwy 16 SY !!)
EXPOSURE, EXPOSURE TO EVERYTHING.
It takes the first 1000hrs on a jet to feel "at home" and then TIME to experience the traps.
There are plenty of cases overseas and here of rapid promotion, little experience (both total and on type) and new type that have ended in disaster. ( AN 747 rwy 16 SY !!)
E.P the skipper on the said incident had 21,500 hours and 7500 on type, check and training for 21 years....granted the other 2 didn't have much on type though..
Last edited by puff; 29th Apr 2002 at 08:07.
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Although I am an out-of-work AN pilot with 6000h of jet time I tend to go with the thinking that once you have a couple of thousand command hours on a turbo-prop, it dosn't take long to get comfortable in a jet. The decisions don't get any harder just because you cruise faster.
Having said that, I still would like to work for Virgin...
Having said that, I still would like to work for Virgin...
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I am not being condescending, just commenting on previous posts by VB pilots.
PUFF; Again it isn't time on type , but EXPOSURE. The AN incident ( as opposed to the QF accident ) was the direct result of rapid expansion BY PEOPLE with little experience. Indeed the skip did have 7500hrs on type, but by tying to do it single pilot and the "AN WAY " screwed the pooch.
NICEONE; Do you think a pilot with 2000hrs t-prop should get a command after 500hrs and be let lose ( with an f/o who has 1500hrs whizzing around Bankstown) to FIJI IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, MIDDLE OF A CYCLONE AND A BAG OF ETOP MELS?
QF have been recruiting, training and promoting at a breathtaking rate. Why then are there no pilots with Commands after 500hrs/ 12Months?
PUFF; Again it isn't time on type , but EXPOSURE. The AN incident ( as opposed to the QF accident ) was the direct result of rapid expansion BY PEOPLE with little experience. Indeed the skip did have 7500hrs on type, but by tying to do it single pilot and the "AN WAY " screwed the pooch.
NICEONE; Do you think a pilot with 2000hrs t-prop should get a command after 500hrs and be let lose ( with an f/o who has 1500hrs whizzing around Bankstown) to FIJI IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, MIDDLE OF A CYCLONE AND A BAG OF ETOP MELS?
QF have been recruiting, training and promoting at a breathtaking rate. Why then are there no pilots with Commands after 500hrs/ 12Months?
