Virgin trains RAAF pilots
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I wonder if any of the strike breaking Raafies are still flying in those SQUADS??? Im sure they will have plenty to chat about with the DJ Checkies.....
How did those guys avoid the S@#B List?
How did those guys avoid the S@#B List?
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PFM,
You are a wise one aren't you.
The Government, who directs military policy, would have directed Defence Chiefs to provide Civil Support, (as they do in many different instances) and this would have been relayed as an operational order to various squadrons. I can't see anything to do with unions or volunteers in this issue. How does that make them sc**bs ???
You are a wise one aren't you.
The Government, who directs military policy, would have directed Defence Chiefs to provide Civil Support, (as they do in many different instances) and this would have been relayed as an operational order to various squadrons. I can't see anything to do with unions or volunteers in this issue. How does that make them sc**bs ???
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Just guessing, but I cannot see Virgin or CASA allowing RAAF guys to fly RPT ops without appropriate licences. I am guessing also, but I would think that the new 737 and Canadair Challenger pilots have been flying the Falcon 900 for a while, it is not as if they have just come from flying cessnas around Bankstown... Anyway, I am sure that what is being done is both legal and safe.
For info, many years ago RAAF flew learjets out of Amberly for survey. The RAAF crews required a civil licence before they were allowed to fly it. Also, the Falcon 900 is leased, yet RAAF crews operating it do not require a civil licence.
I also recall (someone please correct me if wrong) that several years ago the RAAF wings course was modified to include most, if not all, the theory of a civil commercial licence. In any case I am sure that there is no shortage of Falcon 900 pilots who 'just happen' to have their ATPL
For info, many years ago RAAF flew learjets out of Amberly for survey. The RAAF crews required a civil licence before they were allowed to fly it. Also, the Falcon 900 is leased, yet RAAF crews operating it do not require a civil licence.
I also recall (someone please correct me if wrong) that several years ago the RAAF wings course was modified to include most, if not all, the theory of a civil commercial licence. In any case I am sure that there is no shortage of Falcon 900 pilots who 'just happen' to have their ATPL
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The Fin Review is a little behind the times (or more likely the Oz public have just been kept in the dark).
There have been RAAF aircrew flying the line for Virgin for several months now in preparation of the BBJ arrival. As correctly observed, wages are paid by the taxpayer (Oops I meant RAAF) and the guys fly in RAAF uniform, at no expense to VB.
The BBJ program has slid right (again) and so the ongoing relationship will continue to be beneficial to both sides. As more crews are required, the Virgin contract will be employed. My source heard that the Virgin contract allows rapid consolidation of flying skills, with several sectors a day, rather than the piece meal approach of the RAAF VIP operating environement.
There have been RAAF aircrew flying the line for Virgin for several months now in preparation of the BBJ arrival. As correctly observed, wages are paid by the taxpayer (Oops I meant RAAF) and the guys fly in RAAF uniform, at no expense to VB.
The BBJ program has slid right (again) and so the ongoing relationship will continue to be beneficial to both sides. As more crews are required, the Virgin contract will be employed. My source heard that the Virgin contract allows rapid consolidation of flying skills, with several sectors a day, rather than the piece meal approach of the RAAF VIP operating environement.
Re the licensing issue; as was mentioned above, CASA recognises that those who have completed an operational conversion are eligible for a CPL. They still have to apply for it and pay the fee, but are exempt from exams and courses of training.
ATPLs are a different story, and unless some extraordinary exemption has been organised in this case, RAAFies who want one have to sit all the exams like anyone else. Most of the hours requirements are taken care of in the course of a couple of normal flying tours.
Having said that, there are plenty of people who do their ATPL subjects at their own expense whilst in the RAAF in order to keep their options open.
Instrument and instructor ratings still require a flight test, but those with appropriate military flying experience are exempt the CAO-prescribed courses of training (still have to pass the IREX for an IRT though).
That's a bit of a revenue-raising thing from CASA that I don't really agree with - fair enough to have to pass the IREX and prove knowledge of CAOs etc, but it was a bit weird to have been legal to fly in cloud and at night for 20 years in a previous life and then have to jump through the hoops again for an initial issue instrument rating.
ATPLs are a different story, and unless some extraordinary exemption has been organised in this case, RAAFies who want one have to sit all the exams like anyone else. Most of the hours requirements are taken care of in the course of a couple of normal flying tours.
Having said that, there are plenty of people who do their ATPL subjects at their own expense whilst in the RAAF in order to keep their options open.
Instrument and instructor ratings still require a flight test, but those with appropriate military flying experience are exempt the CAO-prescribed courses of training (still have to pass the IREX for an IRT though).
That's a bit of a revenue-raising thing from CASA that I don't really agree with - fair enough to have to pass the IREX and prove knowledge of CAOs etc, but it was a bit weird to have been legal to fly in cloud and at night for 20 years in a previous life and then have to jump through the hoops again for an initial issue instrument rating.
Seems to me that Ronnie has done this one right. What a great way to give his pilots line training.
Whoever thought of this one has done himself and the service proud. Long may it contunue.
Is the Wort still the boss at 34?
Don
Whoever thought of this one has done himself and the service proud. Long may it contunue.
Is the Wort still the boss at 34?
Don
Arm-out of-window.
Interesting posts. In the early Sixties the RAAF had Viscounts and Convair Metropolitans in the VIP squadron. They were not on the civil register. The pilots had Green Card RAAF instrument ratings. There was no need to have a civil instrument rating nor a civil licence. In any case the flight test for both RAAF and civil instrument rating were almost identical.
I remember having a DCA Examiner in the jump seat observing my instrument rating renewal in a Viscount. He commented that it was a more thorough check than he had seen in his civil world and awarded me a civil instrument rating on the basis of his observations.
It was short lived however. He received a terrific boot up the arse from his superiors in DCA Head Office because he had stepped over the line being only a miserable lower class GA Examiner and not a superior upper class RPT Examiner. This was because the Viscount was an "RPT" type.
The GA Examiner's name was "Freddy" Fox. He died many years back. DCA immediately down graded my precious First Class instrument rating to Second Class rating only.
The next day I flew the Governor General to New Zealand in a Viscount - regardless of a lousy Second Class instrument rating by DCA standards.
I think its a wonderful idea having RAAF crews flying with VB for 737 experience. After all, it was only 25 years ago that my old airline Air Nauru helped out Ansett crews at no cost by giving them left seat ICUS on the early Boeing 737's. The Ansett pilots were made most welcome and a good bunch they were, too.
No one bitched that we knew of- but then Pprune wasn't born then...
Interesting posts. In the early Sixties the RAAF had Viscounts and Convair Metropolitans in the VIP squadron. They were not on the civil register. The pilots had Green Card RAAF instrument ratings. There was no need to have a civil instrument rating nor a civil licence. In any case the flight test for both RAAF and civil instrument rating were almost identical.
I remember having a DCA Examiner in the jump seat observing my instrument rating renewal in a Viscount. He commented that it was a more thorough check than he had seen in his civil world and awarded me a civil instrument rating on the basis of his observations.
It was short lived however. He received a terrific boot up the arse from his superiors in DCA Head Office because he had stepped over the line being only a miserable lower class GA Examiner and not a superior upper class RPT Examiner. This was because the Viscount was an "RPT" type.
The GA Examiner's name was "Freddy" Fox. He died many years back. DCA immediately down graded my precious First Class instrument rating to Second Class rating only.
The next day I flew the Governor General to New Zealand in a Viscount - regardless of a lousy Second Class instrument rating by DCA standards.
I think its a wonderful idea having RAAF crews flying with VB for 737 experience. After all, it was only 25 years ago that my old airline Air Nauru helped out Ansett crews at no cost by giving them left seat ICUS on the early Boeing 737's. The Ansett pilots were made most welcome and a good bunch they were, too.
No one bitched that we knew of- but then Pprune wasn't born then...
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Why does the RAAF crew a VIP fleet?Wouldn`t precious resources be better used in combat roles?
Give the contract to Qantas.Surely they would be competitive for the prestige of having this role.
Current QF pilots of military background could crew.
Give the contract to Qantas.Surely they would be competitive for the prestige of having this role.
Current QF pilots of military background could crew.
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The instrument rating thing is still a bone of contention. When flying the draggy a few years back we would organise in advance with a Melbourne based ATO to sit in the jump seat.
We would fly from East Sale (Via an IFR NAVEX with the usual spate of multiple emergencies/diversions etc) to ML to pick up the ATO. Out of ML for an ILS and an NDB with some emergencies thrown in to tick the boxes (initiated by the military QFI with the ATO observing from the jump seat).
Back to ML for debrief/quiz and then back to ESL via another NAVEX and the continuation of the military IRT.
I always looked forward to the bit with the ATO. The guy we generally took (Peter Salvair) was an ex F111 driver so was obviously familiar with the military IRT, but had plenty of RPT exposure as well due to his dealings with the airline world. He provided invaluable cross pollenation of ideas from the airlines, some of which we incorporated into our own SOPs. Another win/win for all concerned. The pilot has his civil IRT renewed and the squadron gains some good ideas, I would hope maybe even Peter got something from it also. Aside from that it was also the least stressful part of the IRT.
When the B200s were still on the civil register, CASA approved one of the squadron QFIs as an ATO for the purposes of renewing civil IRTs on that aircraft which was a big step forward (G'day Bimbo). Unfortunately it was revoked when the aircraft went onto the military register.
Oh I wasn't going to respond to PFM but since I'm here, why not. Service pilots who were flying during the dispute were doing so under orders from our superiors. To refuse would have resulted in charges for insubordination. To make a comment such as yours using the 'S' word shows you to be a self centered ignoramous. I see from your signature what you spend most of your time doing!!!
We would fly from East Sale (Via an IFR NAVEX with the usual spate of multiple emergencies/diversions etc) to ML to pick up the ATO. Out of ML for an ILS and an NDB with some emergencies thrown in to tick the boxes (initiated by the military QFI with the ATO observing from the jump seat).
Back to ML for debrief/quiz and then back to ESL via another NAVEX and the continuation of the military IRT.
I always looked forward to the bit with the ATO. The guy we generally took (Peter Salvair) was an ex F111 driver so was obviously familiar with the military IRT, but had plenty of RPT exposure as well due to his dealings with the airline world. He provided invaluable cross pollenation of ideas from the airlines, some of which we incorporated into our own SOPs. Another win/win for all concerned. The pilot has his civil IRT renewed and the squadron gains some good ideas, I would hope maybe even Peter got something from it also. Aside from that it was also the least stressful part of the IRT.
When the B200s were still on the civil register, CASA approved one of the squadron QFIs as an ATO for the purposes of renewing civil IRTs on that aircraft which was a big step forward (G'day Bimbo). Unfortunately it was revoked when the aircraft went onto the military register.
Oh I wasn't going to respond to PFM but since I'm here, why not. Service pilots who were flying during the dispute were doing so under orders from our superiors. To refuse would have resulted in charges for insubordination. To make a comment such as yours using the 'S' word shows you to be a self centered ignoramous. I see from your signature what you spend most of your time doing!!!
Hello all....here is the official vergin..sorry... version:
___________________________________________
MEDIA RELEASE
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE
PACC 175/02 Tuesday, 23 April, 2002
RAAF PILOTS TRAIN ON NEW GENERATION 737 JETS
The Department of Defence has signed an agreement with Virgin Blue to help train Air Force pilots who will crew the new generation of Special Purpose aircraft.
Two RAAF pilots are currently being instructed on Virgin Blue Boeing 737 jets to build up their flying hours and proficiency on the aircraft before two new Boeing Business Jets are introduced into the RAAF's Special Purpose Aircraft fleet.
The Special Purpose aircraft is the same type operated by Virgin Blue, apart from internal fixtures, and offers the Air Force pilots realistic training from the co-pilot's seat.
The Deputy Chief of Air Force, Air Vice-Marshal Chris Spence, said it was a mutually beneficial arrangement with no added cost to the Department.
"We are very impressed with Virgin Blue's level of professionalism and the open, friendly attitude of the airline's crew. It's an ideal training environment," he said.
Although they wear their own uniform, the Air Force pilots are rostered as normal Virgin Blue crew members during the expected six to eight weeks of training.
Issued by Public Affairs and Corporate Communication, Department of Defence, Canberra, ACT
Media Releases are available via email if you register at the Media Centre at www.defence.gov.au
End of release
_______________________________________________
These guys had ATPLs well before doing this task. RAAF pilots get no concessions from CASA when undertaking the ATPL exams.
All defence-operated aircraft that are listed on the civil register must be flown by license-holders only. If the RAAF needs pilots to get a license to do a task, it normally pays for the costs, but in many cases there are pilots who have already paid for their own licenses and exams.
Such a pity that KD cannot provide some line experience for the CL604 as well.......almost same as the CRJ.
Donpizmeov - yes he iz.
RM
___________________________________________
MEDIA RELEASE
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE
PACC 175/02 Tuesday, 23 April, 2002
RAAF PILOTS TRAIN ON NEW GENERATION 737 JETS
The Department of Defence has signed an agreement with Virgin Blue to help train Air Force pilots who will crew the new generation of Special Purpose aircraft.
Two RAAF pilots are currently being instructed on Virgin Blue Boeing 737 jets to build up their flying hours and proficiency on the aircraft before two new Boeing Business Jets are introduced into the RAAF's Special Purpose Aircraft fleet.
The Special Purpose aircraft is the same type operated by Virgin Blue, apart from internal fixtures, and offers the Air Force pilots realistic training from the co-pilot's seat.
The Deputy Chief of Air Force, Air Vice-Marshal Chris Spence, said it was a mutually beneficial arrangement with no added cost to the Department.
"We are very impressed with Virgin Blue's level of professionalism and the open, friendly attitude of the airline's crew. It's an ideal training environment," he said.
Although they wear their own uniform, the Air Force pilots are rostered as normal Virgin Blue crew members during the expected six to eight weeks of training.
Issued by Public Affairs and Corporate Communication, Department of Defence, Canberra, ACT
Media Releases are available via email if you register at the Media Centre at www.defence.gov.au
End of release
_______________________________________________
These guys had ATPLs well before doing this task. RAAF pilots get no concessions from CASA when undertaking the ATPL exams.
All defence-operated aircraft that are listed on the civil register must be flown by license-holders only. If the RAAF needs pilots to get a license to do a task, it normally pays for the costs, but in many cases there are pilots who have already paid for their own licenses and exams.
Such a pity that KD cannot provide some line experience for the CL604 as well.......almost same as the CRJ.
Donpizmeov - yes he iz.
RM
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Longhauler
Yeh right - I think someone has been tugging at your other leg
Regarding the line training of the RAAF pilots - considering that as has been stated they are all appropriately licensed - whats the problem. Its a Company decision and probably a good one for many reasons.
PFM
As for the events of 12 years ago with the RAAF pilots, the fact that the use of the RAAF at the time was illegal has no relevance, the pilots were under orders and had no choice in the matter. Thats a matter of fact when you are a military pilot. Thats why they don't appear on "the list". There are some but they are the ones that resigned to grab an available position that I am sure they would otherwise have never got.
As the dispute was 12 years ago, it is highly unlikely the there are any of the RAAF pilots concerned still flying in the service. More likely they are in senior positions sitting behind a desk and not an instrument panel. Most in fact are more likely gainfully employed in civil aviation somewhere.
One other point of interest regarding the line training/experience of the RAAF pilots. You must remember there are no pilots in the RAAF that have anywhere near the experience of experienced airline pilots. Therefore any exposure to this level of experience can only be good for the eventual standard that these pilots take back with the to the RAAF.
Have a nice day
Yeh right - I think someone has been tugging at your other leg
Regarding the line training of the RAAF pilots - considering that as has been stated they are all appropriately licensed - whats the problem. Its a Company decision and probably a good one for many reasons.
PFM
As for the events of 12 years ago with the RAAF pilots, the fact that the use of the RAAF at the time was illegal has no relevance, the pilots were under orders and had no choice in the matter. Thats a matter of fact when you are a military pilot. Thats why they don't appear on "the list". There are some but they are the ones that resigned to grab an available position that I am sure they would otherwise have never got.
As the dispute was 12 years ago, it is highly unlikely the there are any of the RAAF pilots concerned still flying in the service. More likely they are in senior positions sitting behind a desk and not an instrument panel. Most in fact are more likely gainfully employed in civil aviation somewhere.
One other point of interest regarding the line training/experience of the RAAF pilots. You must remember there are no pilots in the RAAF that have anywhere near the experience of experienced airline pilots. Therefore any exposure to this level of experience can only be good for the eventual standard that these pilots take back with the to the RAAF.
Have a nice day
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Bhing, two points:
There are still RAAF pilots flying at the moment who flew in the RAAF during the dispute, and
Regarding the comment 'You must remember there are no pilots in the RAAF that have anywhere near the experience of experienced airline pilots' I fear that you have made a common mistake - confusing number of hours in the log book with experience.
There are still RAAF pilots flying at the moment who flew in the RAAF during the dispute, and
Regarding the comment 'You must remember there are no pilots in the RAAF that have anywhere near the experience of experienced airline pilots' I fear that you have made a common mistake - confusing number of hours in the log book with experience.
Bulldog69. There are many good reasons why the RAAF run the VIP fleet with their own crews. The main one is for security reasons. Civilian crews would be union dominated which would be bloody lovely if there was a national emergency and they wanted danger money or some such nonsense.
The RAAF have done a good job of operating the VIP squadron for nigh on fifty years, despite earning probably 50% less than their airline pilot counterparts. And they don't go on strike!
The RAAF have done a good job of operating the VIP squadron for nigh on fifty years, despite earning probably 50% less than their airline pilot counterparts. And they don't go on strike!
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Dearest Bhing,
On your comment shown below:
"One other point of interest regarding the line training/experience of the RAAF pilots. You must remember there are no pilots in the RAAF that have anywhere near the experience of experienced airline pilots."
Of interest, I did a hi level transit just last week. My position reports went very well, thank you, considering my lack of experience.
CSY
P.S. How did your last night, hi speed, low level, bad weather, formation trip go???
On your comment shown below:
"One other point of interest regarding the line training/experience of the RAAF pilots. You must remember there are no pilots in the RAAF that have anywhere near the experience of experienced airline pilots."
Of interest, I did a hi level transit just last week. My position reports went very well, thank you, considering my lack of experience.
CSY
P.S. How did your last night, hi speed, low level, bad weather, formation trip go???
Last edited by Can'tstandya; 26th Apr 2002 at 22:26.
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The RAAF pilots who took part in the use of the military during the pilots' dispute were doing their required duty - obeying orders.
The nearest thing to a scab was none other than the then CAS, who publicly took considerable pride in the so called "strike busting" exercise with which the RAAF was lumbered. A pity he didn't, at least publicly, criticize the government decision. After all, he was already the CAS, he had no further promotion to achieve.
(In fact, one of his former, retired colleagues, publicly criticised the use of the military being used in that particular indstrial dispute).
No doubt the RAAF crews took considerable pleasure in the largesse the late Abeles tossed at them, and they did. Free mini bars, etc.
But none of them are on the list as a result of them following the orders they were obliged to undertake.
The nearest thing to a scab was none other than the then CAS, who publicly took considerable pride in the so called "strike busting" exercise with which the RAAF was lumbered. A pity he didn't, at least publicly, criticize the government decision. After all, he was already the CAS, he had no further promotion to achieve.
(In fact, one of his former, retired colleagues, publicly criticised the use of the military being used in that particular indstrial dispute).
No doubt the RAAF crews took considerable pleasure in the largesse the late Abeles tossed at them, and they did. Free mini bars, etc.
But none of them are on the list as a result of them following the orders they were obliged to undertake.