Why can't Air NZ fly domestically in Australia??
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Why can't Air NZ fly domestically in Australia??
I have just recently read an article asking our transport minister why reciprocal landing rights aren't being allowed in Australia. I find it very strange that Qantas are allowed to fly domestic routes in New Zealand using wet leased aircraft in other operators livery and off shore labour for maintenace, when Air NZ has no reciprocating rights in Australia.
Is this just another case of the Aussie Government shafting us and giving us kiwis another good bashing???
Is this just another case of the Aussie Government shafting us and giving us kiwis another good bashing???
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I understood there was nothing stopping any Australian owned, OR New Zealand owned, carrier from operating in either Country?
Mind you Air NZ probably wouldn't want to operate here at present, while they are rebuilding, also there is still a lot of ill feeling towards them (RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY?) over the Ansett business.
As to the maintenance labour, I was told that apart from a Base Engineering Manager, they were using NZ Engineers, is this NOT true?
Mind you Air NZ probably wouldn't want to operate here at present, while they are rebuilding, also there is still a lot of ill feeling towards them (RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY?) over the Ansett business.
As to the maintenance labour, I was told that apart from a Base Engineering Manager, they were using NZ Engineers, is this NOT true?
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Farrari
Because VB are not an Australasian airline.
Where have you been over the past few weeks?
Pay attention in future boy or you will be sent to see the headmaster in Pprune Towers.
Because VB are not an Australasian airline.
Where have you been over the past few weeks?
Pay attention in future boy or you will be sent to see the headmaster in Pprune Towers.
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Gimmie-a-break!
Who in their right mind would want to fly Air NZ domesticly in Oz?
With QF as their handling agent for international ops, who's going to do their turn-rounds? No, l don't think VB or the Marks would be at all interested.
And speaking of which, air NZ just gave away all their terminal space and landing slots here when they gave up AN
You are the weakest link. Good bye!
Who in their right mind would want to fly Air NZ domesticly in Oz?
With QF as their handling agent for international ops, who's going to do their turn-rounds? No, l don't think VB or the Marks would be at all interested.
And speaking of which, air NZ just gave away all their terminal space and landing slots here when they gave up AN
You are the weakest link. Good bye!
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Kiwispanner, where have you been these last six months? AirNZ will never, ever ever fly domestically in Australia! Over here AirNZ are thought of as vermin. They have betrayed Australias' trust and will NEVER be forgiven.
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Kiwispanner, You are quite right. Some years ago when trade between Aus and NZ was freed up, so was the Airline market where it was considered to be one market, the purpose of which was to provide market strength and opportunities for economies of scale, and try and protect us from foreign domination.
I do not know why ANZ did not commence domestic services in Australia in their own name/right or for that matter why they can't now.
I think it is a matter that has to be sorted out at ministerial level. I can recall some impediment at govt level, but can't remember what it was.
This answer is given to try and answer your question, and I don't want to be embroiled in all the frucas about what has happened recently.
I do not know why ANZ did not commence domestic services in Australia in their own name/right or for that matter why they can't now.
I think it is a matter that has to be sorted out at ministerial level. I can recall some impediment at govt level, but can't remember what it was.
This answer is given to try and answer your question, and I don't want to be embroiled in all the frucas about what has happened recently.
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They'd be wasting their time coming over here. Why would an Australian get on an AirNZ flight when they could get on a Qantas, Ansett or Virgin Blue flight? It would be very unlikely that their aircraft would receive much priority for re-fuelling, loading, catering etc. A hell of a lot of average, hard working Aussies have had their fingers burnt by their disreputable business practices.
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I hear that Freedom is looking at flying in Australia with NZ based pilots on super low wages with super low air fares. Most people in New Zealand do not realise Freedom is Air NZ owned, most likely the case with the Australian public.
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When talking about "disreputable business practices", to whom are you referring, Boeing Belly?
Rupert Murdoch, Sir Peter Abeles, Laurie Brerton, John Howard, John Anderson, the ACTU, Ned Kelly or are you alluding to something or someone else (with my apologies to the names and organisations previously mentioned)?
Come on BB, get a grip!!!
No, on second thoughts, you'd better ease off in case the end goes purple and drops off.
The real reason why NZ can't and doesn't operate in Australia in its own right is because of double standards within the Australian government and, as has often been mentioned in these forums, the influence Qantas seems to be able to exert (and in the past, Abeles et al) on the afore mentioned government to ensure that they can stayed wrapped up, snug (or is it "smug") and warm in a state provided cocoon of cotton wool safe in the knowledge that their best interests will be protected and honest competion will be stifled.
[ 01 December 2001: Message edited by: Mungo ]
Rupert Murdoch, Sir Peter Abeles, Laurie Brerton, John Howard, John Anderson, the ACTU, Ned Kelly or are you alluding to something or someone else (with my apologies to the names and organisations previously mentioned)?
Come on BB, get a grip!!!
No, on second thoughts, you'd better ease off in case the end goes purple and drops off.
The real reason why NZ can't and doesn't operate in Australia in its own right is because of double standards within the Australian government and, as has often been mentioned in these forums, the influence Qantas seems to be able to exert (and in the past, Abeles et al) on the afore mentioned government to ensure that they can stayed wrapped up, snug (or is it "smug") and warm in a state provided cocoon of cotton wool safe in the knowledge that their best interests will be protected and honest competion will be stifled.
[ 01 December 2001: Message edited by: Mungo ]
The SAM agreement came into effect 1st November 1996.
The basic's of it are here.
I believe this was first mooted around 1991 and initial moves were made to enact this agreement but something happened around 1994 which put this on hold.
This is a link to a speech by then NZ Transport Minister Maurice Williamson on the SAM agreement - speech
The basic's of it are here.
I believe this was first mooted around 1991 and initial moves were made to enact this agreement but something happened around 1994 which put this on hold.
This is a link to a speech by then NZ Transport Minister Maurice Williamson on the SAM agreement - speech
From the '96 SAM agreement:
and from the speech:
So what happened for after the '96 agreement?
The New Zealand government opened up their skies to Australian operators, however the Australian government failed to do the same for the New Zealanders - they were fianalizing the arrangements still in 2000. I don't know if they ever did finnish.
The "something that happened" to put the agreement on hold, was the joining of Australian Airlines to Qantas, and the subsequent sale of Qantas.
The government of the day didn't want to hurt the sale price by opening up the domestic market to more competition - so they backed off the open skies deal.
16 New Treaty
The two Governments will make every effort to conclude, by 30 June 1997, a new air services treaty reflecting these new arrangements to replace the 1961 Air Services Agreement.[/b]
The two Governments will make every effort to conclude, by 30 June 1997, a new air services treaty reflecting these new arrangements to replace the 1961 Air Services Agreement.[/b]
The administrative requirements for an open aviation market licence are simplified in comparison to the usual international air service licence.
This will be particularly the case for new entrants into New Zealand.
I expect these simplified arrangements, which will operate on this side of the Tasman, will assist in developing flexible, responsive trans-Tasman air services.
However, after finalising the regulatory regime on this side of the Tasman, Australian officials discovered that the same action was not so easy to carry out in Australia.
Nevertheless I look forward to seeing Australia follow a similar path in due course.
This will be particularly the case for new entrants into New Zealand.
I expect these simplified arrangements, which will operate on this side of the Tasman, will assist in developing flexible, responsive trans-Tasman air services.
However, after finalising the regulatory regime on this side of the Tasman, Australian officials discovered that the same action was not so easy to carry out in Australia.
Nevertheless I look forward to seeing Australia follow a similar path in due course.
The New Zealand government opened up their skies to Australian operators, however the Australian government failed to do the same for the New Zealanders - they were fianalizing the arrangements still in 2000. I don't know if they ever did finnish.
The "something that happened" to put the agreement on hold, was the joining of Australian Airlines to Qantas, and the subsequent sale of Qantas.
The government of the day didn't want to hurt the sale price by opening up the domestic market to more competition - so they backed off the open skies deal.
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Given the collapse of Ansett and the substatial weakening of ANZ, do you think they would still be looking for an excuse to delay the implementation, not withstanding that there is likely to be two low cost operators in Aust in the immediate future, who by their very presence in the market may reduce the share value of QF.
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Hey Boeing Guts, it's a pity you can't trust us Kiwis any more 'cos you certainly can't trust each other!
An open skies agreement WAS signed between NZ & Oz years ago which lead to Ansett NZ, a fully AUSTRALIAN owned airline, operating in NZ. When to quid pro quo was due to come in, ie, NZ airlines flying in Oz, the then Oz Minister of Transport, one Laurie Brereton (I think <spit> ) p!ssed back the night before with an infamous fax to the then Kiwi Min of Trans which became known as the 'Brereton' (or whatever) fax!
See BB, if you can't trust us Kiwis - who can you trust?
An open skies agreement WAS signed between NZ & Oz years ago which lead to Ansett NZ, a fully AUSTRALIAN owned airline, operating in NZ. When to quid pro quo was due to come in, ie, NZ airlines flying in Oz, the then Oz Minister of Transport, one Laurie Brereton (I think <spit> ) p!ssed back the night before with an infamous fax to the then Kiwi Min of Trans which became known as the 'Brereton' (or whatever) fax!
See BB, if you can't trust us Kiwis - who can you trust?
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Dear All,
From my understanding the Australian government did slam the door shut on Air NZ's face just before they were to commence operations and that is the reason that they sought the full ownership of Ansett, (trying the backdoor). And yes I do agree that the directors of Air NZ did not do enough homework into the full purchase of Ansett and they bought a crippling airline that was doomed from the start.
I do not want to get into a slanging match with Australians, all I would like to see is the Australian Government honour its part of the deal. Was this just another underarm ball???
Cheers.
From my understanding the Australian government did slam the door shut on Air NZ's face just before they were to commence operations and that is the reason that they sought the full ownership of Ansett, (trying the backdoor). And yes I do agree that the directors of Air NZ did not do enough homework into the full purchase of Ansett and they bought a crippling airline that was doomed from the start.
I do not want to get into a slanging match with Australians, all I would like to see is the Australian Government honour its part of the deal. Was this just another underarm ball???
Cheers.
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OK, lets compromise, lets all lobby our respective governments to do away totally with the open skies agreement. You guys can't fly over here, and Australian carriers can't fly over there. Now, who do you think the biggest losers will be?
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: Boeing Belly ]
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: Boeing Belly ]