WTC destruction - fight breaks out at BNE Uni.
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And while we are at it can anybody tell me in which other Country or Countries on this planet anyway, where a third party is able to lodge on your behalf a case to that countries Federal Court for habeus corpus (or whatever legal gobledegook) and illegal detention requiring the Government of that country to arrange your transport and entry into a country that you had attempted to enter illegally in the first place.
AND have the case decided in your favour by invoking an ancient right determined in the 10th century in another country.
Dodgy decision and appealable maybe but it still carries the force and rule of law and may yet require their delivery to Oz.
If the appeal is lost, again as a consequence of the rule of law, then it must be for the Government to go to the people and ask them how they feel aboout this.
There's something I'm missing here, but anyway, the next time I hear anyone who is enjoying the benefits of this country, criticising Oz as being racist and insenstive, then this good natured and tolerant Ozzer is going to become severely less so.
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
AND have the case decided in your favour by invoking an ancient right determined in the 10th century in another country.
Dodgy decision and appealable maybe but it still carries the force and rule of law and may yet require their delivery to Oz.
If the appeal is lost, again as a consequence of the rule of law, then it must be for the Government to go to the people and ask them how they feel aboout this.
There's something I'm missing here, but anyway, the next time I hear anyone who is enjoying the benefits of this country, criticising Oz as being racist and insenstive, then this good natured and tolerant Ozzer is going to become severely less so.
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
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Ilya, I borrowed the comment you took such exception to from a Sydney newspaper article of about three weeks ago. (I’m afraid I don’t have the details of what paper and exactly when.) The writer made that very comment – that few of the children and young men of Lebanese descent in Sydney’s west, who he had interviewed for his article, considered themselves to be Australians. Many (not all) existed in a parallel society that was almost totally disconnected from what most of us would call mainstream Australia – and they saw no need and had no desire to ever become part of that separate Australia. (Except to take what it offered with no perceived need to offer anything back.)
Below is something that I wrote a week or two ago, planning to post it on the ‘Tampa boat people’ tread, but never got around to it. It’s not quite on the subject of this thread, but I’m posting it here to see, by the reactions of respondents to it, just how out of touch with modern Australia I’ve become as someone from “… the older Anglo Australian generation.”
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I don’t think there’s any shadow of a doubt that Afghanistan under the enlightened rule of the Taliban is very much short of hell on earth for the many of the people who live (or once lived) there. That 3.7 million people have quite literally voted with their feet and left their homes to live in squalor in hopelessly overcrowded refugee camps is mute testimony to that.
Let’s remember that the fundamentalist zealots who run Afghanistan were the darlings of the Western media, and in particular the American media, when they were fighting the Soviets with massive American military aid. These one-time ‘freedom fighters’ follow their (some would say, hopelessly skewed) interpretations of teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, who, especially considering the times he was born into, could not be described as anything other than enlightened. Enlightened, many millions of people would say, to the point that he was guided in his writings directly by God.
However… (there’s always an ‘however’)… Many other millions, (among them, I think it would be safe to say, the vast majority of the Australian population), don’t share this passionate belief in the Prophet Mohammed’s writings.
Someone on this or an associated thread called Australia ‘Christian’. While I think that’s highly debatable – (Australia would have to be about as close to a godless society as I’ve ever seen, if you disregard Australians’ worship of Sport or their passionate pursuit of hedonism). However, the majority come from at least a semi Christian background and many if not most adhere loosely (some VERY loosely!) to a Judeo Christian set of rules to co-exist within their society and to keep that society viable.
Most Australians quite like the current situation in Australia and would feel threatened to see newcomers within their society, be they ultra conservative born again Christians, fundamentalist (and non-fundamentalist) Muslims, or people from any other religion for that matter, seek to impose their ideas of social behaviour on everyone in that society. It might not be politically correct to say it, but many feel more than a little upset, some to the point of feeling threatened, when they see newcomers arrive here, some as refugees, some as legal migrants – (and some as illegal immigrants!) – and continue to practise a set of values, religious or social, that seems to many to be widely at odds with modern day Australia.
The most obvious illustration of this is the insistence of so many newcomers from the Middle East in having their women wear the head scarf. To many, it is particularly galling when they see ‘anglo’ women who have presumably married Muslim Australian men, wearing the head scarf, (I’m surmising here), almost certainly at their husbands’ insistence. They ask, perhaps unreasonably, because I know it’s a complex matter:“What in the world did the men who insist their women dress this way (women who were not born to such practices) want to abandon their homelands and come here if they don’t want to fit in here?”
The societies many of these people come from practise strict segregation of the sexes outside the family, and a woman who displays any flesh apart from her hands and face (and for some, even that is not allowed), is considered nothing short of a whore who, by her display of naked flesh, is taunting a man past his point of self control, so that if he rapes her, (or if a group of such men gang rape her), it is totally her fault.
An observer might be forgiven for asking how people who bring such beliefs with them can ever hope to fit in to modern day Australia except in a strictly segregated ghetto, (which is not ‘fitting in’ where I come from). Surely this was not what our political leaders and social planners had in mind in bringing newcomers to this country to contribute to its growth and diversity?
Whilst many, if not most, Australians are tolerant of the newcomers’ different ideas, it has to be said that many of the newcomers of the particular persuasion we are discussing here do not reciprocate with a similar tolerance. I cite the Mullah in Sydney recently who said the two girls gang raped by five Muslim youths had no one to blame but themselves because they had brought it upon themselves by their manner of dress.
I accept it. As an older ‘anglo’ Australian, I’m confused.
Below is something that I wrote a week or two ago, planning to post it on the ‘Tampa boat people’ tread, but never got around to it. It’s not quite on the subject of this thread, but I’m posting it here to see, by the reactions of respondents to it, just how out of touch with modern Australia I’ve become as someone from “… the older Anglo Australian generation.”
-------
I don’t think there’s any shadow of a doubt that Afghanistan under the enlightened rule of the Taliban is very much short of hell on earth for the many of the people who live (or once lived) there. That 3.7 million people have quite literally voted with their feet and left their homes to live in squalor in hopelessly overcrowded refugee camps is mute testimony to that.
Let’s remember that the fundamentalist zealots who run Afghanistan were the darlings of the Western media, and in particular the American media, when they were fighting the Soviets with massive American military aid. These one-time ‘freedom fighters’ follow their (some would say, hopelessly skewed) interpretations of teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, who, especially considering the times he was born into, could not be described as anything other than enlightened. Enlightened, many millions of people would say, to the point that he was guided in his writings directly by God.
However… (there’s always an ‘however’)… Many other millions, (among them, I think it would be safe to say, the vast majority of the Australian population), don’t share this passionate belief in the Prophet Mohammed’s writings.
Someone on this or an associated thread called Australia ‘Christian’. While I think that’s highly debatable – (Australia would have to be about as close to a godless society as I’ve ever seen, if you disregard Australians’ worship of Sport or their passionate pursuit of hedonism). However, the majority come from at least a semi Christian background and many if not most adhere loosely (some VERY loosely!) to a Judeo Christian set of rules to co-exist within their society and to keep that society viable.
Most Australians quite like the current situation in Australia and would feel threatened to see newcomers within their society, be they ultra conservative born again Christians, fundamentalist (and non-fundamentalist) Muslims, or people from any other religion for that matter, seek to impose their ideas of social behaviour on everyone in that society. It might not be politically correct to say it, but many feel more than a little upset, some to the point of feeling threatened, when they see newcomers arrive here, some as refugees, some as legal migrants – (and some as illegal immigrants!) – and continue to practise a set of values, religious or social, that seems to many to be widely at odds with modern day Australia.
The most obvious illustration of this is the insistence of so many newcomers from the Middle East in having their women wear the head scarf. To many, it is particularly galling when they see ‘anglo’ women who have presumably married Muslim Australian men, wearing the head scarf, (I’m surmising here), almost certainly at their husbands’ insistence. They ask, perhaps unreasonably, because I know it’s a complex matter:“What in the world did the men who insist their women dress this way (women who were not born to such practices) want to abandon their homelands and come here if they don’t want to fit in here?”
The societies many of these people come from practise strict segregation of the sexes outside the family, and a woman who displays any flesh apart from her hands and face (and for some, even that is not allowed), is considered nothing short of a whore who, by her display of naked flesh, is taunting a man past his point of self control, so that if he rapes her, (or if a group of such men gang rape her), it is totally her fault.
An observer might be forgiven for asking how people who bring such beliefs with them can ever hope to fit in to modern day Australia except in a strictly segregated ghetto, (which is not ‘fitting in’ where I come from). Surely this was not what our political leaders and social planners had in mind in bringing newcomers to this country to contribute to its growth and diversity?
Whilst many, if not most, Australians are tolerant of the newcomers’ different ideas, it has to be said that many of the newcomers of the particular persuasion we are discussing here do not reciprocate with a similar tolerance. I cite the Mullah in Sydney recently who said the two girls gang raped by five Muslim youths had no one to blame but themselves because they had brought it upon themselves by their manner of dress.
I accept it. As an older ‘anglo’ Australian, I’m confused.
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I agree with gaunty, all the way with your first posting.
I just like to say that, I was not born in this country and migrated here about 15yrs ago with my parents.
Australia has done so much for me, If i was still in my original birth place. I would not have had the opportunity to do things that i can here.
I'm an Australian citizen and i love every thing about this country.
The way i see it, my parents came here to start a better life. In order to do that, you give must give up your past and start fresh. Embrace what Australia has to offer...If you don't like it LEAVE!!!!!.
I just like to say that, I was not born in this country and migrated here about 15yrs ago with my parents.
Australia has done so much for me, If i was still in my original birth place. I would not have had the opportunity to do things that i can here.
I'm an Australian citizen and i love every thing about this country.
The way i see it, my parents came here to start a better life. In order to do that, you give must give up your past and start fresh. Embrace what Australia has to offer...If you don't like it LEAVE!!!!!.
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loc out
Thats exactly our point WE dont WANT or even DESIRE retribution.
It is not us that have generated the problem, but in fact have given those who genuinely ask and desire an opportunity to become a PART of a culture they obviously (or at least we hope) admire beyond their own.
As Wiley points out why jump through all the hoops and uproot your family to come to the same place you just left, unless of course, you have a more sinister motive. We unlike some countries do not insist that our women dress in a certain manner, short of absolute nudity, why make yourself very visible.
The Islam that was described to me is supposed to be a religion of tolerance and respect for others and is supposed to honour the safety, well being and cultural sensitivities of guests. At least in the cultured and civilised parts of Islam.
Why do those described by Wiley not extend this respect, tolerance and trust to their fellow Australians.
I feel personally affronted that the men of this faith do not trust me to treat their women with ther respect to which they are entitled and get as a matter of course, in this country anyway. Or is it the men from their own culture they fear, if that is so, then it is they that need rehabilitating, not the women.
I have had the pleasure of many Muslims friends in my house, some more enlightened than others, but almost to a man, the men have expressed a certain discomfort at the way the women (mrs gaunty and the 2 gauntesss) deal with me in their presence, and in their turn likewise the wives. It is curious because they in turn admit that their women are equally strong with them but not in public.
Perhaps I need to rehabilitate mrs gaunty and her coven.
Jihad? if they want one they'll get it in spades.
It is their choice. Talking it out sometimes fails, why otherwise is it necessary to have a military but to take up where the talking fails.
Sad but True
Thats exactly our point WE dont WANT or even DESIRE retribution.
It is not us that have generated the problem, but in fact have given those who genuinely ask and desire an opportunity to become a PART of a culture they obviously (or at least we hope) admire beyond their own.
As Wiley points out why jump through all the hoops and uproot your family to come to the same place you just left, unless of course, you have a more sinister motive. We unlike some countries do not insist that our women dress in a certain manner, short of absolute nudity, why make yourself very visible.
The Islam that was described to me is supposed to be a religion of tolerance and respect for others and is supposed to honour the safety, well being and cultural sensitivities of guests. At least in the cultured and civilised parts of Islam.
Why do those described by Wiley not extend this respect, tolerance and trust to their fellow Australians.
I feel personally affronted that the men of this faith do not trust me to treat their women with ther respect to which they are entitled and get as a matter of course, in this country anyway. Or is it the men from their own culture they fear, if that is so, then it is they that need rehabilitating, not the women.
I have had the pleasure of many Muslims friends in my house, some more enlightened than others, but almost to a man, the men have expressed a certain discomfort at the way the women (mrs gaunty and the 2 gauntesss) deal with me in their presence, and in their turn likewise the wives. It is curious because they in turn admit that their women are equally strong with them but not in public.
Perhaps I need to rehabilitate mrs gaunty and her coven.
Jihad? if they want one they'll get it in spades.
It is their choice. Talking it out sometimes fails, why otherwise is it necessary to have a military but to take up where the talking fails.
Sad but True
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I too am a migrant. I serve in the military and have totally integrated - I am Australian and I will fight for Australia, against the country from which I come from if necessary. I believe this is my commitment and obligation to a country and a people I love. I am offended by those religious or ethnic groups within Australia who encourage and in some cases require their encumbents to enclave themselves against true Australians. Have a look how many are in the forces, how many commit to Australia. These groups use the taxation system and the social service system to there illegal limits. Some maintain assets in their home country and return to collect the OAP or whatever. This happens. I too have friends from many ethnic groups and religions but these friends are not those I talk about. I welcome an Australian commitment to help those in need in other countries however I believe we should require some obligation and commitment from anyone who wishes to become Australian and that in itself is the first commitment. You are no longer Pom, Greek, Italian, Muslim, Catholic first - you must be Australian first and it is governments' responsibility to ensure this instead of propagating the retention of cultural values first. I do not want my country to become Fiji, Afganistan or Great Britain in ten years time and if it takes a Christian interfada or whatever to do that then count me in. I am sick and tired of this interfada threat by extremist muslims - cut the bluff and wear some back!
I abhor weapons however I must admit the value of that Americans statement that if all the passengers on those aircraft had been armed then we would not be where we are today. You cannot reason with madmen.
Finally, I wish the Army had picked up all those people cheering the news on Wednesday in trucks, picked up their human rights activist mates and dumped them in HMAS Jervois bound for the Middle East. Go quickly, you are not wanted here and leave your peaceable muslims in peace instead of tarnishing all.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: NormanBates ]
I abhor weapons however I must admit the value of that Americans statement that if all the passengers on those aircraft had been armed then we would not be where we are today. You cannot reason with madmen.
Finally, I wish the Army had picked up all those people cheering the news on Wednesday in trucks, picked up their human rights activist mates and dumped them in HMAS Jervois bound for the Middle East. Go quickly, you are not wanted here and leave your peaceable muslims in peace instead of tarnishing all.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: NormanBates ]
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A most interesting thread, with some apparently well considered points. It is not often we see history made and the world change; the impact of it is reflected everywhere, even on this forum.
Gaunty - dunno who you are, but if reality reflects your postings, I'd be pleased to meet you one day; can't say that about the authors of some of the rantings on PPrune unfortunately.
Notra-whatever - mate, it would be a giant leap of immagination to consider New York to be 'the city of God....' -my personal opinion, no offence please.
I'm a Christian; I have firm beliefs that I will share with anyone interested. They revolve around love, tolerance and forgiveness. If you're not interested, I'll pray for you anyway - but I will not dig out my AK47 and blow you away, because I - WE - live in a society that accepts people without bias or discrimination.
Not so some of the cultures that are growing stronger in this country through immigration - illegal or otherwise. A group of Aid Workers - that is, folk who give up their time, money, effort, health and sometimes their lives, to give practical assistance to people in other countries and of other cultures and religious beliefs - are currently being tried in Afghanistan for the crime of believing in a faith not that of the ruling politico/religious group. For that crime, these folk may be executed, without appeal or any of the other rights we take for granted here.
No student of Islam will or can support the actions of the last decade, the terror attacks against 'soft' targets in the West. Islam is also supposed to be a religion of tolerence and love (not that I am an expert on Islam) - unfortunately, some fanatics have twisted the words and writing of Islams Prophet Mohamed, to include such things as the covering and repression of women (any ever read the novel 'A Town Like Alice'; it gives a great insight into the reality of how the Koran says to treat women); or to kill wantonly in the name of Allah, or even have that 'thing' about which hand they eat with. I have no idea what part of the Koran says to go out and gang rape 16 year old girls who dress differently to your standards! True believers in Allah (which is simply God in another language, same as Jehovah, Yahweh, et al) could not support the things we are seeing. The Koran instructs Muslims to be at peace with 'the people of the book' (ie Christians).
By the same token, people have taken the writings and teachings of Jesus and his disciples and twisted them to suit their own ends - just have a look at Ireland, a supposedly Christian nation, where they are killing each other with abandon in the name of their 'religion'. Or go a little further back, to the Crusades. Even WW2, the belts worn by the German Wermacht (probably not spelt right) had an engraving around the buckle "Got Mit Uns" - God With Us. The Waco mass killing - that perverted 'prophet' was apparently raping children, as directed to in the bible. They must have been reading a different version of the Bible than I.
Where will the current situation end? God knows (seriously). But as for us mere mortals; in fear of copy-cat attacks and such, I fear aviation will be changing from what we know now. Australia is changing, I hope it does not go the way of some other countries.
Regards. (climbs down from soapbox)
Gaunty - dunno who you are, but if reality reflects your postings, I'd be pleased to meet you one day; can't say that about the authors of some of the rantings on PPrune unfortunately.
Notra-whatever - mate, it would be a giant leap of immagination to consider New York to be 'the city of God....' -my personal opinion, no offence please.
I'm a Christian; I have firm beliefs that I will share with anyone interested. They revolve around love, tolerance and forgiveness. If you're not interested, I'll pray for you anyway - but I will not dig out my AK47 and blow you away, because I - WE - live in a society that accepts people without bias or discrimination.
Not so some of the cultures that are growing stronger in this country through immigration - illegal or otherwise. A group of Aid Workers - that is, folk who give up their time, money, effort, health and sometimes their lives, to give practical assistance to people in other countries and of other cultures and religious beliefs - are currently being tried in Afghanistan for the crime of believing in a faith not that of the ruling politico/religious group. For that crime, these folk may be executed, without appeal or any of the other rights we take for granted here.
No student of Islam will or can support the actions of the last decade, the terror attacks against 'soft' targets in the West. Islam is also supposed to be a religion of tolerence and love (not that I am an expert on Islam) - unfortunately, some fanatics have twisted the words and writing of Islams Prophet Mohamed, to include such things as the covering and repression of women (any ever read the novel 'A Town Like Alice'; it gives a great insight into the reality of how the Koran says to treat women); or to kill wantonly in the name of Allah, or even have that 'thing' about which hand they eat with. I have no idea what part of the Koran says to go out and gang rape 16 year old girls who dress differently to your standards! True believers in Allah (which is simply God in another language, same as Jehovah, Yahweh, et al) could not support the things we are seeing. The Koran instructs Muslims to be at peace with 'the people of the book' (ie Christians).
By the same token, people have taken the writings and teachings of Jesus and his disciples and twisted them to suit their own ends - just have a look at Ireland, a supposedly Christian nation, where they are killing each other with abandon in the name of their 'religion'. Or go a little further back, to the Crusades. Even WW2, the belts worn by the German Wermacht (probably not spelt right) had an engraving around the buckle "Got Mit Uns" - God With Us. The Waco mass killing - that perverted 'prophet' was apparently raping children, as directed to in the bible. They must have been reading a different version of the Bible than I.
Where will the current situation end? God knows (seriously). But as for us mere mortals; in fear of copy-cat attacks and such, I fear aviation will be changing from what we know now. Australia is changing, I hope it does not go the way of some other countries.
Regards. (climbs down from soapbox)
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Bit like religion isnt it!! In respect to the refugees lets remember that the majority are trying to get away from the Taliban and most are in serious risk of their life. And if I was in their shoes I would be getting out of the places they come from as fast as possible as well.
Surely we can respond to these issues in an educated and non-ignorant fashion which seperates our behavior from those that we condemn.
Surely we can respond to these issues in an educated and non-ignorant fashion which seperates our behavior from those that we condemn.
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Bravo.......
You all define what it is to be Australian.
They had better forget about any celebration of such a hideous murder of civilians in the presence of "This little Black Duck"
Those who would seek to dilute the values we hold in this country are simply not welcome..
Any civilisation who IMHO, denegrate women in such oppresive ways and allow the men to behave like stud bulls that require fences in the form of a vail, will only create segregation, anger and conflict in a country where freedom, justice ( Most of the time ), equality and self control are the corner stones..
Be Australian and be nice or..
****** OFF
You all define what it is to be Australian.
They had better forget about any celebration of such a hideous murder of civilians in the presence of "This little Black Duck"
Those who would seek to dilute the values we hold in this country are simply not welcome..
Any civilisation who IMHO, denegrate women in such oppresive ways and allow the men to behave like stud bulls that require fences in the form of a vail, will only create segregation, anger and conflict in a country where freedom, justice ( Most of the time ), equality and self control are the corner stones..
Be Australian and be nice or..
****** OFF
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Just watched 60 minutes where some middle eastern Islamic spokesman was saying that the "American soldier is a paper tiger" & "it is the man behind the gun that counts" !
When push comes to shove the soldiers of Islam will have as much chance as those other zealots, the Sons of Nippon that the Yanks winkled out of Guadalcanal,Okinawa,The Marshall Islands, Guam, New Guinea,New Britain, The Phillipines,etc etc using conventional hardware, dumb bombs etc.
The losses were huge but they didn't blink an eye.
Apart from General Ataturk the list of Islamic war heroes is a bit short. These Jihad blokes seem intent on dying in a Holy war & who are we to deny them ? Back in the eighties we saw Iran & Iraq go at it for 7 years? until they ran out of Jihad straight to heaven blokes. They seemed more intent on getting killed rather that doing the killing.
Old Saddam had the base of his "Triumphal Arch" covered by the helmets of his alleged victims. I reckon he got them from the local army surplus store. They have a funny idea of what constitutes a victory
as doing a runner can also be a victory for some strange reason.
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: shocka ]
When push comes to shove the soldiers of Islam will have as much chance as those other zealots, the Sons of Nippon that the Yanks winkled out of Guadalcanal,Okinawa,The Marshall Islands, Guam, New Guinea,New Britain, The Phillipines,etc etc using conventional hardware, dumb bombs etc.
The losses were huge but they didn't blink an eye.
Apart from General Ataturk the list of Islamic war heroes is a bit short. These Jihad blokes seem intent on dying in a Holy war & who are we to deny them ? Back in the eighties we saw Iran & Iraq go at it for 7 years? until they ran out of Jihad straight to heaven blokes. They seemed more intent on getting killed rather that doing the killing.
Old Saddam had the base of his "Triumphal Arch" covered by the helmets of his alleged victims. I reckon he got them from the local army surplus store. They have a funny idea of what constitutes a victory
as doing a runner can also be a victory for some strange reason.
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: shocka ]
