Can Ansett pilots work in Australia?
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ANFO,
Just stop and think for a minute! All these incidents you describe, though unsavoury, are but minor annoyances and would have affected I guess a tiny percentage of your colleagues. Now look at the other side.
My case would be fairly typical. Within 6 months of leaving, I had lost my car, my house (interest rates at the time were running 18%) and had moved to another state away from my two young kids to conserve costs. Not a pleasant experience and not one that was over in a couple of minutes, like the incidents you describe.
The divorce rate amongst those that moved overseas was fairly high as a lot of families found it difficult to adapt to foreign cultures. Understandable.
You have never sat down with any of us I'm sure to see if we're regular guys or to listen to the other side of the story and I would guess from your posts that you probably don't want to. But I would be sure that given the amount of feeling you have toward us without hardly any exposure to us that you would be able to understand our animosity toward our former colleagues, who in may cases were GOOD friends.
Just stop and think for a minute! All these incidents you describe, though unsavoury, are but minor annoyances and would have affected I guess a tiny percentage of your colleagues. Now look at the other side.
My case would be fairly typical. Within 6 months of leaving, I had lost my car, my house (interest rates at the time were running 18%) and had moved to another state away from my two young kids to conserve costs. Not a pleasant experience and not one that was over in a couple of minutes, like the incidents you describe.
The divorce rate amongst those that moved overseas was fairly high as a lot of families found it difficult to adapt to foreign cultures. Understandable.
You have never sat down with any of us I'm sure to see if we're regular guys or to listen to the other side of the story and I would guess from your posts that you probably don't want to. But I would be sure that given the amount of feeling you have toward us without hardly any exposure to us that you would be able to understand our animosity toward our former colleagues, who in may cases were GOOD friends.
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Let's clear up a couple of misunderstanbdings exhibited by ANFO.
Hanging a hat on the "you resigned" syndrome is merely exercising the age old scab defence. It is no justification, and condemns the scab even more.
Secondly, the so called "cut off date" of March 1990 was not a signal to new applicants that it was open slather.
It was merely a move by the AFAP to allow all members to lodge applications to return to their original place of emplyment should they so choose.
Therefore, those who thought otherwise, and rushed to get employment, failed to understand that they, in my view, a tarred with the same brush as any other scab.
As for unacceptable conduct by anyone displaced by a scab, it is not excused, or condoned, and does not detract from my earlier statement that those who stood firm have demonstrated their trustworthiness and professionalism.
Hanging a hat on the "you resigned" syndrome is merely exercising the age old scab defence. It is no justification, and condemns the scab even more.
Secondly, the so called "cut off date" of March 1990 was not a signal to new applicants that it was open slather.
It was merely a move by the AFAP to allow all members to lodge applications to return to their original place of emplyment should they so choose.
Therefore, those who thought otherwise, and rushed to get employment, failed to understand that they, in my view, a tarred with the same brush as any other scab.
As for unacceptable conduct by anyone displaced by a scab, it is not excused, or condoned, and does not detract from my earlier statement that those who stood firm have demonstrated their trustworthiness and professionalism.
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After continuing to read this hatred and scorn I must admit a lot of us are so proud to be called "scabs"
Look at the alternative, be called an 89er and show your sickness to the world and if only you realised what a laughing stock you are to everyone outside of your strange little group. keep it up boys we all get a great laugh out of it.
Look at the alternative, be called an 89er and show your sickness to the world and if only you realised what a laughing stock you are to everyone outside of your strange little group. keep it up boys we all get a great laugh out of it.
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Melbourne is obviously the place for good Gen.
I’ve just returned from there as well with another interesting snippet.
I spoke with a gentleman that had given Chansett 31 good years of his life until recently. A relative of Abeles told him nine months ago; to take his payout and run as the company was very close to collapse. It’s not what you know. The guy I believe was a janitor.
Didn’t think to ask him if he bothered telling any of his mates. Guess they wouldn’t have believed him anyway. He took his money and ran 3 months after the advice was given, one of the lucky ones
I really do wish the good people in Ansett the very best outcome. For the others, it did take 12 years, however, as they say………….
I hope the heroes enjoy their taste of the big bad world that awaits them. Time to compete in the market place people and we know a number of you are going to find life outside your comfort zone a tad difficult.
I remember the words of one ANSW checky back in ‘91 re one of the heroes that was allowed to slip through the net big time when RHS typing on the F28 just before ‘89. He said the scary thing about disputes is that you get people like this brother from the gold coast who can’t pole, think and drink coffee at the same time slipping into the LHS of the frog jet due expediency. He would have had a much harder time transitioning and may never have made it had the events of ’89 not occurred.
Scary dangerous stuff really. Now he and his ilk will need to compete on the much talked about level playing field, oh no…
Pole Vaulter; notice the absence of vitriol, envy, hatred and scorn. Just fact.
PV, just curious, did you come up with that name after you vaulted so many numbers on the seniority list due to ’89 or am I off the mark.
I’ve just returned from there as well with another interesting snippet.
I spoke with a gentleman that had given Chansett 31 good years of his life until recently. A relative of Abeles told him nine months ago; to take his payout and run as the company was very close to collapse. It’s not what you know. The guy I believe was a janitor.
Didn’t think to ask him if he bothered telling any of his mates. Guess they wouldn’t have believed him anyway. He took his money and ran 3 months after the advice was given, one of the lucky ones
I really do wish the good people in Ansett the very best outcome. For the others, it did take 12 years, however, as they say………….
I hope the heroes enjoy their taste of the big bad world that awaits them. Time to compete in the market place people and we know a number of you are going to find life outside your comfort zone a tad difficult.
I remember the words of one ANSW checky back in ‘91 re one of the heroes that was allowed to slip through the net big time when RHS typing on the F28 just before ‘89. He said the scary thing about disputes is that you get people like this brother from the gold coast who can’t pole, think and drink coffee at the same time slipping into the LHS of the frog jet due expediency. He would have had a much harder time transitioning and may never have made it had the events of ’89 not occurred.
Scary dangerous stuff really. Now he and his ilk will need to compete on the much talked about level playing field, oh no…
Pole Vaulter; notice the absence of vitriol, envy, hatred and scorn. Just fact.
PV, just curious, did you come up with that name after you vaulted so many numbers on the seniority list due to ’89 or am I off the mark.
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Somebody needs to tell ANFO about the cold , hard facts of industrial life....it might just as well be me!
IRC hearings, re the pilots dispute, were still being held in mid 1990 and were widely reported by the media. As ANFO had an application lodged with Ansett he would have been following events very closely indeed and would have been aware of this.
The AFAP were still holding EGMs in mid 1990 and these were also being widely reported. ANFO would have been aware of this also.
The AFAP executive were still working to achieve a result in the dispute through to the end of 1990 and also into 1991. This was also being reported in the media.
ANFOs post above is disingenuous and reeks of sophistry!
At best ANFO is an opportunist , at worst a scab!
There were intake F/Os on course at the time of the dispute. They new what they had to do , and to their credit , they acted like principled men.
You are sadly lacking in principles ANFO...
And you are a scab!
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Amos ]
IRC hearings, re the pilots dispute, were still being held in mid 1990 and were widely reported by the media. As ANFO had an application lodged with Ansett he would have been following events very closely indeed and would have been aware of this.
The AFAP were still holding EGMs in mid 1990 and these were also being widely reported. ANFO would have been aware of this also.
The AFAP executive were still working to achieve a result in the dispute through to the end of 1990 and also into 1991. This was also being reported in the media.
ANFOs post above is disingenuous and reeks of sophistry!
At best ANFO is an opportunist , at worst a scab!
There were intake F/Os on course at the time of the dispute. They new what they had to do , and to their credit , they acted like principled men.
You are sadly lacking in principles ANFO...
And you are a scab!
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Amos ]
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So Amos, accuse me of lying , eh? NOT SO!! The above did occur!! Absolutely!!. So Nah!So mate , how do you want to argue this? In legal terms or practical. Your line of reasoning indicates that you choose practical. Some posters on this forum have made reference to the fact that AFAP members resigned from their jobs. In legal terms, this was when the dispute was over. The companies no longer had a case to answer to the IRC from this point on did they??!! Everybody who has taken a cursory examination of the dispute would know that AFAP members resigned to prevent the companies taking civil action for damages against the the AFAP members(remember, the IRC had ordered you back to work; AFAP was now operating outside the law). It is plainly evident that although the legally the the dispute finished in practical terms or moral terms it wasn't. (this bit is for you too Tool Time). Most in GA at the time were not salivating at the prospect of airline jobs at the time. On the contrary, most were wishing that you guys would win for 2 reasons: 1)The pay increases would be granted and then we'd earn more when and if we made the airlines and 2) that you 'd FLICK OFF back to the airlines and leave us some opportunities for promotion in descent GA companies. So, in practical terms ,exactly when is one a scab or not? Hmm? Has AFAP got a specific date? No? I heard Brain McCarthy say on ABC radio in about 1994 the the dispute wouldn't be over until every AFAP member was re-empolyed? Is such a definition practical? In any event such definitions are largely subjective. My arbitrary cut-off date was when AFAP executive told members to go back to work. The point has been made that some AFAP members went flying O/S because they needed the money. Fair enoungh, but why didn't they take a non-flying job here in OZ? I know that many went because they couldn't stand the attitude of the management. I can understand this. I've felt it myself. To my mind, however, this presents a moral contradiction. These people were taking a flying job that could have been taken by another pilot and at the same time, they made moral claim to a job here in Australia? That is laying claim to 2 jobs at once, is it not? If you can offer logical and just resolution to this dilmma, I'll buy you a case of beer(Cooper's)! I might also add , mate if you have cheek to call me a scab that I was offered a command with Ansett NZ during their lockout (as were other ANFO's)and I knocked it back. So there.( Always appriciated the candour of your post Slasher. Wher did you get the name ? Are you always going to the toilet?)( Check my profile).
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Looks like ANFO just went tits-up. And um yes I do run to the p!ss-house a lot.
Pole W@nker forgets he and his kind are a sickness. Like typhoid and dysentry.
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Slasher ]
Pole W@nker forgets he and his kind are a sickness. Like typhoid and dysentry.
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Slasher ]
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Tool time you must type with your nose because both hands must be on your joystick for some of the crap that you sprout. Guilt by association, the anger and hatred you must feel. I do not fly but in my game ,the amount of bagage you gentleman carry would predicate any semblenance of normal operations.
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ANFO
Your progressing well with a diversion from the fact that while are clinically not of the very unclean common garden variety, you gained employment at a difficult time.
Exceedingly experienced airline pilots, all type endorsed, who had remained in Australia were being denied employment. I would suggest you were quite aware of this as you
undertook to sit in that seat you used to enjoy. This denial of employment was extended into the regionals and changed lives.
I have compassion for the wives and children that will endure the pain of the coming months. For yourself, it is going to be a testing time.
Your progressing well with a diversion from the fact that while are clinically not of the very unclean common garden variety, you gained employment at a difficult time.
Exceedingly experienced airline pilots, all type endorsed, who had remained in Australia were being denied employment. I would suggest you were quite aware of this as you
undertook to sit in that seat you used to enjoy. This denial of employment was extended into the regionals and changed lives.
I have compassion for the wives and children that will endure the pain of the coming months. For yourself, it is going to be a testing time.
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Guess what ANFO (and other heroes)?? No matter how hard you try to justify your actions of the past, it won't help you one little iota. You very well know what you did back then. Yes, remember! you didn't give a rats about anyone else or their families other than yourself. Now that the cold hard light of day has dawned upon you and you find that you are on the outer, stop kidding yourself that all will be forgiven. You had a moral choice back then as we all did and guess what again ? YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK. GOODBYE!!
ps Kurmitola, I feel privileged to have known and flown with a fine aviator such as yourself.
[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: Interceptor ]
ps Kurmitola, I feel privileged to have known and flown with a fine aviator such as yourself.
[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: Interceptor ]
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Well, yes it's goodbye. Knackered,(and others) I am so genuinely sorry that the experience of the dispute caused you to have such profound disappointment in people who were your friends. I have spoken to many who were involved from both sided and I have often been amazed at the effects, positive and otherwise that advesity brings out in people. The Ansett collapse has brought out a similar level of stress in all players. Personnaly, I implore you not to be so hard on those who returned; in most cases, you were not betrayed out spite, but from recognition of the futility of AFAP's cause. As Kaptin M says, now is the time to seize opportunity. I've met some great people (such as Joe Wilson) during 11 years at AN, but the industry is truely on the decline as are conditions of service.I doubt there is much chance of a command for years if I remain in the industry and I'm damned if I'll work as an FO for less than $80K. For the last 6 years, I've been the co-owner of business. This business is involved in security and personal protection. The way the world has changed in the last few months has created demand for our sevices and I am leaving aviation to make this my primary economic focus. Best wishes to all.
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Just to put a bit of balance back into the discussion:-
The 89'ers had no problem, AFTER they RESIGNED, in going overseas and taking command jobs ahead of career expat F/O's.(I was one of these F/O's).
These people had no problem in usurping jobs O/S, but have great difficulty in understanding that there was a LOT of resentment against them, particularly when they boasted that they would be back in OZ after 6 months.
Well, its now 2001 and that's a long 6 months for those still O/S.
There are two sides to every argument. I think deep down these 89'ers really wish they had not resigned. If they had only stuck to the point and not relied on dubious leadership, they could have stayed in OZ where they belong.
Have a nice life.
The 89'ers had no problem, AFTER they RESIGNED, in going overseas and taking command jobs ahead of career expat F/O's.(I was one of these F/O's).
These people had no problem in usurping jobs O/S, but have great difficulty in understanding that there was a LOT of resentment against them, particularly when they boasted that they would be back in OZ after 6 months.
Well, its now 2001 and that's a long 6 months for those still O/S.
There are two sides to every argument. I think deep down these 89'ers really wish they had not resigned. If they had only stuck to the point and not relied on dubious leadership, they could have stayed in OZ where they belong.
Have a nice life.
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..."the futility of the AFAP's cause" says it all.
This individual has been brainwashed by those with whom he/she shared a cockpit since scabbing in 1990.
It is conveniently ovelooked, that these people were members of the AFAP, demanding action be taken to restore all of the pay and conditions which had been eroded under Abele's accord.
When Abeles' offered pay beyond their wildest dreams, the fact it was someone else's job and money wasn't given a thought, but the AFAP and its leadership was blamed. After all, that is the message Abeles and the golden scabs told them to say when challenged.
They also were told to say ..."but you all resigned..". Of course, that was bunkum, and that peg is as droopy as the brewery dog.
It is hard to believe so many "intelligent" people still push the idea it was the AFAP, when the organisation is the most democratic union in the country.
This individual has been brainwashed by those with whom he/she shared a cockpit since scabbing in 1990.
It is conveniently ovelooked, that these people were members of the AFAP, demanding action be taken to restore all of the pay and conditions which had been eroded under Abele's accord.
When Abeles' offered pay beyond their wildest dreams, the fact it was someone else's job and money wasn't given a thought, but the AFAP and its leadership was blamed. After all, that is the message Abeles and the golden scabs told them to say when challenged.
They also were told to say ..."but you all resigned..". Of course, that was bunkum, and that peg is as droopy as the brewery dog.
It is hard to believe so many "intelligent" people still push the idea it was the AFAP, when the organisation is the most democratic union in the country.
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I'm having some difficulty here.
Firstly, there's an assertion that those who went OS fter the 89 brawl were somehow better pilots than those who chose to stay..Quaint! I know very differently.
Secondly, many who went OS also lodged applications but were rejected. They're not scabs just because they didn't get re-employed? Quaint also.
I know many who wanted to stay, but for varied reasons were rejected. Those reasons range from too radical industrially to just plain couldn't fly an aeroplane. Those same people then secured jobs flying bigger equipment internationally in companies with no industrial protection or representation.
So much for those closely held beliefs. By being rejected, and going OS, they compromised their beliefs, AND became better pilots than those who chose to stay. Even more quaint.
ToolTime, I'm not sure who you refer to when you say 'those who stood firm' - those who left or those who stayed!
Either way, I find it most difficult to understand the hatred still being exhibited, principally by those who left, more than 12 years down the track. At best, those doing so will are suffering terrible personal stress, probably because they made what they now see as the wrong decision. At worst, they are suffering mental illness.
I don't see any of those going overseas as a result of the AN collapse being intimidated into quitting by a bunch of misfits though.
I chose not to leave Oz back in 89, and the choice would be the same now under the same circumstances. AN collapse? I'm retiring six years early, but I take a philosophical position. If the 89 brawl hadn't occurred, it would have taken 13 years to a jet command, and if I'd worked till age 60, I'd have earned $x. The 89 brawl occurred, I secured a jet command in 6 years, and in six years less, I've earned $x plus $1.1M.
What must be made clear is that I didn't take anybody else's job. I took my own, and mine only. I don't have to justify that to anyone.
I don't begrudge those who left in 89 their super salaries flying 747s 777s 340s 330s etc, but it seems that many are still bitter. why? As I suggested above, they made the wrong decision, and now they stuck in the bloody desert and hating it.
You're better off, we're better off, or are you seriously sugesting that if you'd stayed that AN would have survived? It's certainly not the employees fault, but rather management failings over many years.
A CASA friend told me that in the last week there has been a rush of Oz pilots currently working OS who have been calling to renew their Oz ATPLs. Could it be that they want to come home AND work for less? Couldn't be.
Strobes_on - you've got it right.
I recall a story told to me by a Gulf Air pilot who joined AN post dispute. He told me of an AN captain back in 89 drinking his beer on his verandah (dropped in with another GA friend) in Dubai and telling him that AN pilots had the right to come to GA and take instant commands over Fos such as you when they wouldn't permit that system to prevail in Oz. Once again, quaint.
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: captainschlonger ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: captainschlonger ]
Firstly, there's an assertion that those who went OS fter the 89 brawl were somehow better pilots than those who chose to stay..Quaint! I know very differently.
Secondly, many who went OS also lodged applications but were rejected. They're not scabs just because they didn't get re-employed? Quaint also.
I know many who wanted to stay, but for varied reasons were rejected. Those reasons range from too radical industrially to just plain couldn't fly an aeroplane. Those same people then secured jobs flying bigger equipment internationally in companies with no industrial protection or representation.
So much for those closely held beliefs. By being rejected, and going OS, they compromised their beliefs, AND became better pilots than those who chose to stay. Even more quaint.
ToolTime, I'm not sure who you refer to when you say 'those who stood firm' - those who left or those who stayed!
Either way, I find it most difficult to understand the hatred still being exhibited, principally by those who left, more than 12 years down the track. At best, those doing so will are suffering terrible personal stress, probably because they made what they now see as the wrong decision. At worst, they are suffering mental illness.
I don't see any of those going overseas as a result of the AN collapse being intimidated into quitting by a bunch of misfits though.
I chose not to leave Oz back in 89, and the choice would be the same now under the same circumstances. AN collapse? I'm retiring six years early, but I take a philosophical position. If the 89 brawl hadn't occurred, it would have taken 13 years to a jet command, and if I'd worked till age 60, I'd have earned $x. The 89 brawl occurred, I secured a jet command in 6 years, and in six years less, I've earned $x plus $1.1M.
What must be made clear is that I didn't take anybody else's job. I took my own, and mine only. I don't have to justify that to anyone.
I don't begrudge those who left in 89 their super salaries flying 747s 777s 340s 330s etc, but it seems that many are still bitter. why? As I suggested above, they made the wrong decision, and now they stuck in the bloody desert and hating it.
You're better off, we're better off, or are you seriously sugesting that if you'd stayed that AN would have survived? It's certainly not the employees fault, but rather management failings over many years.
A CASA friend told me that in the last week there has been a rush of Oz pilots currently working OS who have been calling to renew their Oz ATPLs. Could it be that they want to come home AND work for less? Couldn't be.
Strobes_on - you've got it right.
I recall a story told to me by a Gulf Air pilot who joined AN post dispute. He told me of an AN captain back in 89 drinking his beer on his verandah (dropped in with another GA friend) in Dubai and telling him that AN pilots had the right to come to GA and take instant commands over Fos such as you when they wouldn't permit that system to prevail in Oz. Once again, quaint.
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: captainschlonger ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: captainschlonger ]