metrad useful but not provided
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metrad useful but not provided
I was flying into and out of sydney the other night with cells every were and no weather radar. according to the jeps i can ask for a metrad (weather radar) indication however i get the standard response whenever i ask that there weather radar is not acurate and they cannot give me any info.. .. .when i am incloud with lightening all around a 10 minute old picture with drift history is better than nothing. to make matter worse the other night after requesing weather info i was given the standard response and then to top things off, 5mins later i was told the radar indicated red (intense) weather in my area. but once again didn't tell me weather it was to the, east, west, north of me and when i asked were it was, he said he wasn't aloud to give me that sort of info. what is the use of haveing these systms if the cant tell us what we need to know.. .. .i realise that they are trying to dodge liability of any wx related incident, but now that we pay for airways clearances and radar info can't they also be held responsible if they watch an aircraft fly straight into weather that is visible on the radar without advise?. .. .the other night i ended up in quite sever turbulence to the extent that i lost a VG, it was only that i had the adf tunned up to 200 and prior experience that made me turn to the west which happened to be the best direction to get me out of the worst of the weather,if i had of continued straight on course i would definatley have had much biggger hassels, a few more VG's and my aircraft would have been grounded.. .. .how can we get these radar operators to help us and supply us with the information we can use?
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You'll get a better services as soon as we get equipment that is easy to use and is acurate.. .. .The problem isn't with the controllers its the equipment. The WX radar we get is has at least a ten minute lag-time, isn't as good as what you get on the BOM website and practically doesn't resemble the airspace that we operate. We have specific instructions that it it is not to be used for WX avoidance.. .. .The WX picture gives us nothing more than rainfall, this is usually good enough to say that's where the worst of it is, nothing more. The picture that we observe has only 5 scales, none of which resemble our traffic picture. The picture is centred on the WX radar site, not on our display, the WX info is on a different box to our radar screens, trying to combine the two to a scale that would give you good info is nigh on impossible.. .. .Oh yeah and the best bit, when the WX is bad, the WX paints over the MAP info, ie suburb names or towns or geographic points, so if it's really bad, all we get is Blue, yellow and red blobs that mean absolutely nothing because you can't see the map at all.. .. .I agree with you that something should be done, but given that they want to give us a pay rise that they'll pay for by removing conditions, me thinks they won't spend the money on something that doesn't make them a buck. It's rubbish that ASA is a profit run organisation, safety and service first, now that's an interesting concept, and also a different topic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
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Follow this address to the BOM weather radar site. . .<a href="http://mirror.bom.gov.au/weather/radar/" target="_blank">http://mirror.bom.gov.au/weather/radar/</a>. .. .This is the information we are presented with and we then have to interpret it in relation to positions on our radar display. . .. .It only updates every ten minutes and is of no use to pass as an advirory to an aicraft. It is useful only in giving a general impression of intensity of rainfall and an idea of where storm cells maybe.
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Other great features: the scale is in km's, so the range rings bear little similarity (except shape) to those on atc screens; the orientation is true north, those working terminal areas have traffic displays aligned with magnetic N; and the image is a conical slice of rainfall intensity originating from the radar site, not a 3d composite (which could be made available), resulting in a significant cone of silence and shadow of silence.
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Duke,. .You think that not being told is rough, try having RAPIC (Weather radar display) removed and not be able to give any advice. Some in ATC are very ANNOYED <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> that we have been knobbled by new systems. But we will try to assist as best we can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
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What the blue blazes are you doing flying around in forecast TS without a WX radar anyway or at the very least a Stormscope which if used properly is pretty darn good and will often tell you things your RDR can't.. .. .OK CASA or whoever it was at the time in a fit of the usual insanity removed the requirement below 5700KGS at the the behest of operators, because they couldn't afford it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .But stupidity is stupidity whether it is legal or not.. .. .ATC can provide advisories and when they are able and suitably equipped do their usual magic job, but they can not protect nor should they be asked the contenders for the Annual Darwin Awards from themselves or the operators of the aircraft.. .. .OK now you are going to tell me that the operators cannot afford radar because they are not making enough money to pay for modern equipment. I don't suppose you have told them that they are not paying you enough money to risk your a&se flying their crock around in places it should not be.. .Maybe then they'll have the courage to put up their rates to a point that will allow them to do so.. .But that may then expose them to the knowledge that they don't have a business at all just an expensive hobby.. .And then you'll ask me "but how do I get a job and hours so that I can go airlines or whatever". .My answer is that while there are (insert Ten thingies prohibited word or phrase here) like yourself prepared to do it, nothing will change.. .. .Go figure as they say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .BTW. .weather and whether have different meanings. .advice and advise can have two completely connsequences.. .allowed and aloud . .And there is a thing called a "Shift" key down near the bottom LH corner of your keyboard and another thoughtfully placed at the other end of the row, on which it seems the manufacturer wasted a whole lot of plastic and space.. .May I respectfully suggest that using Word as your editor with the spellcheck enabled, might help you get your English together sufficiently, to write to CASA and campaign them to reinstate the RDR requirement. That would be a first step to getting your operator to help you stay alive.. .. .Oh and another BTW:. .Ponder this in regard to the 'legal' VG kit on your aircraft, do you have any idea where you are going in the event of an engine failure as a result of a lightning strike or just plain fright soon after that Gross Weight departure with all the extra weight that the engines weren't told about at the factory.. .When I went to Met school evidence that convective activity and lightning were fairly strongly connecte was presented. The exact principle on which the Stormscope is based. .Convective activity = turbulence in and around TS.. .The aircraft which you operate is only required to demonstrate a positive climb with one engine inoperative at GW in the CRZ configuration at 5,000ft in ISA. Positive climb is defined as +50fpm. My experience around said TS suggests that +/-50fpm is a low baseline.. .Ahh but you say they average themselves out..... NOT.. .As they say go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Sorry this isn't personal, I just get angry when I hear first hand that stuff that we thought we had gone past 20 or more years ago is still happening out there.
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gaunty,. .. .we do have radar equiped aircraft and have the entire fleet being installed with radar as they can be pulled off line.. .. .The regs say i can fly in my size aircraft around storms which by the way were NOT forecast as embedded, so i would look pretty stupid if i told my boss i couldn't go,when legally i could.. .. .other pilots will step in and do it if i won't so if i try making a stand i end up out of work, you apear to be living in a dream world.. .. .By the way my company look after the pilots and equipment better than most companies in the basin, our entire fleet are being set up with tso'd gps's we are all being endosed for NPA's at the expense of the company. the entire fleet as i have said already is being equiped with wx radar,. .. .BTW i am not worried about the performance of the aircraft without the VG i know it wont performe at max weight, what i was talking about is i lost one VG on the way to my 1st destination due to the wx if i had lost 3 more the aircraft is grounded, it is a technical thing the aircraft will still fly but i wont break the rules, so i wont be flying it.. .. .Thanks to all the controllers it is good to get the view from the other side, and i do appreciate the help you guys give i think you do a marvelous job i was just interested in the weather radar issue which you have fixed up thanks.
What is needed is a VDL type Data Link Like King now provide in the US, this allows you to see real time weather and get tafs etc, for GA type aircraft. Have a look at <a href="http://www.bendixking.com" target="_blank">www.bendixking.com</a> site and under new products the KDR 510 VDL Mode 2 Data Link Receiver, also <a href="http://www.avidyne.com" target="_blank">www.avidyne.com</a> site, they have simular system. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 09:24: Message edited by: farrari ]</small>
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Gaunty,. .. .Life would be great in a perfect world, but the sad reality is, contractors won't pay for modern equipment, END OF STORY, and from the point of view of the operator, it's not a matter of courage, it's trying to stay in business in a crap environment. Point us GA bugsmasher chumps in the direction of your Utopia, and I guarantee you that we will get the modern, dare I say it, turbine equipment all lined up ready to rake in money hand over fist.....THEN we can stop dreaming about being a business, and stop being hobbyists(!) Give us a break Gaunty, we're trying to make a living down here, to keep the children fed. It's not getting easier, and it doesn't mean we're not dedicated and dilligent professionals, even though we don't have all the cocked equipment.. .. .Now, why didn't you guys get this sort of stuff straightened out 20 years ago, instead of making US inherit it???. .. .PS Duke, without the VG's, it's not grounded, its MTOW is reduced.
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duke . .. .Right glad am I to hear that your operator is getting radar for you, what you need now is somebody really experienced to fly with you to teach you how to use it properly. If they get the lastest it will take care of a lot of the interpretation problems BUT its still just more than a matter of turning it on.. .. .Re forecast embedded? I have never been able to find anyone able to explain to me how you see them on a dark night, especially when they are not producing lightning. I know because I have been inside one that wasn't there (steam driven day radar had just gone on the fritz) I'm only just here to tell you that the first thing I did when I got back and unscrambled was order Stormscopes as back up for the fleet.. .Contradiction in terms you say, no lightning how would the Stormscope see it, I dunno either but the next time I ignored the Stormscope telling me that there was a cell where the radar didn't was the last time I ignored it.. .. .Legal and prudent are not the same thing and I do understand the problem with your employer, but from what you say about him installing radar, GPS and NPA training that he doesn't have to install sounds like he has more than just basic smarts. There must be a financial reward in schedule reliability but it does lower the risk to you seveal magnitudes.. .. .He, your operator, should be campaigning with you to CASA to make the other operators fall into line so that they have to bear the same financial burden and keep the playing field even.. .. .I still do not understand the insane stupidity of removing the Radar requirement, particularly for pressurised turbine equipment. Creampuff, 4Dogs, john_tullamarine can you help me with this one, or was this another of our friend Indianas really dumb intitiatives in affordable safety.. .. .So now that you will be able to navigate around all this stuff you'll have the time to really concentrate on on monitoring all your de-ice gear for proper operation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .But that's another story for another day.. .. .BTW re the VG stuff is there any change to the ZFW?. .. .Achilles. .. .Bugsmasher chumps you are not! you're only being treated like you are, dedicated and dilligent professionals you are even though you don't have all the 'cocked equipment' as you describe it. . .. .The status quo took around 10 years to get to just above the level it is now and has steadily got a little worse for the last 10 or so, it will not be turned around over night.. .But it is equally so thatg if you don't start trying to do so it will NEVER happen.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Now, why didn't you guys get this sort of stuff straightened out 20 years ago, instead of making US inherit it???. . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Ouch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> So help me God I and many others have tried and continue to do so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" /> . .. .It is possible to operate new and/or young modern equipment and get the rate you need, I know because I and a few others have done it, more than once, and for more than a couple of years without going under, and making a respectable profit, so it wasn't a fluke.. .. .But we've been through all this before.. .. .Suffice it to say that whenever I hear or see the noisy experts like Indiana and the AOPA tribe and others with their "we are here to save you routine", I start reaching for my gun.. .. .Yeah now that I think about it, it was about 20 years ago when he started making all that noise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
Just as a sideline to this mates,. .talking about WX radar and ground stations. The yanks have an absolutely phenomenal system (as usual when money is no prob...) and it is available at <a href="http://www.intellicast.com/" target="_blank">www.intellicast.com/</a>. .Check out Traverse City and out to the eastern shores and you will see a perfect plan view of the effect of a cold front in this neck of the woods. I'm in YXU (London) in Canada and we get a lot of "lake effect wx". Very similar to other islands I've lived on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .I use it constantly to interpret and rationalise the wx prophets predictions which dominate our operational existance in the helo air ambo game. . .Check it out its worth the effort.. .Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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It seems from the discussion here that WX RAD might be viewed by some as an absolute panacaea. It's not. Ground based radar can still be one of the most useful tools available to you regardless of what other cool toys you have to play with. It offers another perspective that is less affected by heavy weather shielding, localised effects, and gives the overall picture of whats going on in the area, not just a snippet of red blobs a few degrees either side of the nose. Despite having airborne radar, I still find a ground radar report often invaluable in telling you whats around the corner, and also which way offers the best diversion (coz your TV screen isnt quite showing 25nm left of track, even when you point it there because of the other cell blocking the view.). If you're smart you'll use all available resources. Stormscopes solve the 360 degree problem, but as mentioned above debate as to their effectiveness rages on. Despite having experience with them, I am still a sceptic, and believe they still miss stuff.. .As to the original subject, it amazes me the difference in service you get in all the different parts of Oz from ATS operators sitting in front of essentially similar equipment. Anywhere on the eastern seaboard south of BN, and you'll find an uphill battle getting anything from their radar screen, with a tendency instead to ask for airborne reports from other aircraft. Whilst still handy, the reports are only as good as the situational awareness of the observer, which is often as limited as your 60 degrees perspective. Around DN and the top end on the other hand, they go out of their way with exact locations and dimensions of individual cells, lines and recommended headings, thereby saving a potentially nasty ride, and a lot of fuel. Quite often a heads up is given without even a request being made, which is always welcome. I can understand a mentality of litigious fear, but at the end of the day any ultimate responsibility lies with the PIC, we all know that, don't we? Even if ATC gives you a heading to turn onto for traffic separation, technically you don't have to follow it but it's usually a pretty good idea (if for no other reason than to keep yourself away from a mountain of paperwork and explanations to the powers that be). Anything phrased as a "recommended heading" carries even less liability on the ATS unit, so don't be so scared to help us out guys and gals.
God is very cunning when it comes to pilots. He lets you survive your first TS encounter, knowing that such a religious experience will never be repeated.. .I can safely say that 20 years later, that is still the case.. .I'm breaking out into a sweat just thinking about it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
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lackov. .Well put, we need ALL the help we can get.. .. .Capt Fathom. .. .Oh so true. I was lucky like you, to get 'religion' fairly early on in my flying career and to have another much more experienced pilot sitting alongside me. It took both of us to sort it out in so far as the infinitely infinitessimally tiny effect we were able to to have on the proceedings. . .The God of TS also allowed us a short period of absolute calm afterwards, such that we feared that we might have actually been in heaven, but in fact was provided to allow us to contemplate in peace, just how puny and insignificant we and our chunk of aluminium were in the great scheme of things and the consequences available to him, were we tempted to be again so stupid as to laugh in his face.. .. .As my old Chief Pilot was wont to say "you cant possibly imagine even in your wildest dreams what it's like unless you have been there, severe turbulence is as a ripple on a pond compared". He'd been there too. . .. .We tend to get a bit blaze, sure, experience and wise planning will probably ensure that we never do get to 'get religion', but we should conduct ourselves and use every means at our disposal to be diligent in practising that 'religion' religiously in any event.. .. .I see a lot and sometimes not a lot taught to youngsters about the theory of TS and why, but one wonders how much of it sinks in until, if they are lucky, they get a slap on the wrist.. .. .I would have thought from what 'duke' reports on losing a VG, that that is what he got, the next time might not be so benign. . .. .BTW IMHO losing one component of the VG kit can't be treated as simply reverting to the original config and in any event should ground the aircraft, period, unless the certification allows for the loss of one or more, which I somehow doubt.. .There will likely be no certification data for a partial VG installation, its either on or off. The aircraft becomes US until it is replaced or there is a CASA delegate brave enough sign off a dispensation.??
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Gauntly, I humbly correct you. The Boundary Layer Research IGW kit for the PA31-350 includes 4 engine nacelle strakes and 88 vortex generators affixed to the wings and vertical stabiliser. The a/c can be flown at the IGW with up to 4 VG's missing, according to the AFM. No dispensation required. Any more than that, and its operations at normal MTOW only.. .. .I don't know what happens with mods done by other firms.
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Fair nuff I even more humbly accept the correction re the VG bits, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> but turbulence sufficient to remove one or more is a bit of a worry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
