Private flights and CAO 48
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Private flights and CAO 48
G'day People,. .. .Can someone please confirm for me that if I conduct a PRIVATE flight on one of my days off, I DONT need to count any of that time as DUTY TIME ??. .. .I believe that the flight time has to be counted though ??. .. .Any thoughts ??. .. .Thanks
Unless you work under a CASA approved fatigue management system, in which all time associated with flying in your spare time counts towards your fatigue, as does any of your employment outside your flying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .But if you were under such a system you would not have asked about CAO 48 then as you would be exempt from it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
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Now I am confused <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> ..... .. .Private operations - the operator is the pilot - CARs. .. .48.0 para 1.3 The holder of a pilot licence other than a private pilot licence who engages in. .aerial work, charter, or regular public transport operations, shall be subject to. .the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this. .Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions. .of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in. .the course of private operations.. .. .48.1 para 1.12 A pilot shall not commence a flight and an operator shall not roster him for a. .flight unless during the seven days period terminating co-incident with the. .termination of the flight he has been relieved from all duty associated with his. .employment for at least one continuous period embracing the hours between 10. .pm and 6 am on two consecutive nights.. .. .So are you suggesting that I can "work" for 5 days for my employer, the on my two days off fly private operations ?. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 17:12: Message edited by: Zeke ]</small>
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Tas 661. .. .Maybe this will make it a clear as mud.. .. . Where a pilot employed by an AOC holder engages in a mix of commercial and private operations, all flight and duty time associated with the private operation shall be taken into account in determining compliance with the flight and duty time limitations specified for commercial operations.. .. . If private operations are carried out immediately prior to commencing a period of commercial operations or are sandwiched between periods of commercial operations, then the full amount of both flight and duty times incurred during the period of private operations must be accounted for on the applicable flight and duty time record.. .. . If private operations are carried out immediately after a commercial tour of duty the pilot can continue to fly on private operations irrespective of total flight or duty time. If extended flight or duty time is undertaken on private operations, an extended rest period may be required before the pilot is available to be rostered for either a tour of duty or reserve time at home. The full amount of both flight and duty times incurred during the period of private operations must be accounted for on the applicable flight and duty time record.
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The last two posts are basically correct. As ozoilfield says, you can't fly your Cub to work - only home! If you wish to partake in your chosen off duty activity and that is flying a "private" aircraft then there is nothing they really can do about it other than to make some noise and life difficult for you and maybe with your employer where they have more pull (!). Can you imagine the Road Authority telling a truck or taxi driver he could not drive a sports car on the weekend?? Doubt it. To keep it clean with my employer, I sought and was granted approval to engage in private flying whilst off duty. There were some conditions but they were not restrictive for what I wanted to do. It was never a problem, but it raises its head from time to time because it is not specificly covered in the books. The corporate history in CASA is also not that flash and they don't seem to know what they approved 5 or 10 years ago either. If you have a genuine case for wanting to do your thing on your days off, put your hand up, but don't accept anyone telling you can't do it. Of course keep your Chief Pilot in the loop as well.
BIK, you say: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Parachuting is explicity defined as a private operation</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">.. .. .Which definition explicitly says parachuting is a private operation? Carrying pax for money is a commercial operation, isn't it?. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 11:10: Message edited by: Creampuff ]</small>
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Creampuff . .. .Read and digest the following Instrument, especially the bit about being the holder of private pilot licence.. .. .<a href="http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/rules/miscinst/388%5F00.htm" target="_blank">http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/rules/miscinst/388%5F00.htm</a>
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Bindook,. .. .Your post seems to be opposite to ozoilfield, who is correct ?. .. .Now where does it say I can work 5 days, fly two days in private ops, work 5 days, fly two days in private ops like your turbine para mate ?. .. .I don’t see how your post reads with 48.0 para 1.3 Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.. .. .My understanding was more along the lines of ozoilfields which made me confused with the initial posts, I would have thought the intent was to make sure the crew was rested before a flight that people are paying for, your mate doing the turbine para ops in my view would have been hung drawn and quartered by human factors/fatigue management specialists/experts if he had an accident in either job.. .. .Why do you say duty time cannot be attributed to private ops, but 48.0 para 1.3 makes specific mention of duty time for private ops. Or are you suggesting a pilot working under various AOCs/operations does not "log" flight & duty time with each operator ? . .. .I cannot see how anyone that performs any aerial work, charter, RPT operations cannot have at least one day off in the proceeding week. Sure if only doing private ops, knock you socks off fly 24/7 as long as you then meet CAO 48 requirements before you turn up to work for your commercial operations, ie rest periods, flight times, duty times. . .. .Z
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BIK_116.80, regarding your statement "I know of a scheduled freight charter pilot who used to fly four or five days on freight ops during the week and then go and fly a twin-engined turbine aircraft on parachuting flights on Saturday and Sunday". .As ozoilfield stated, your friend can fly to his heart's content on private operations AFTER his commercial flying. But, if his operator is on the standard Australian CAO 48, BEFORE he commences his commercial flying he must satisfy the rest of the CAO 48. I.e. Max 90 hours duty time in last fortnight. Max. 30 hours flight time in last 7 days. Max. 100 hours flight time in last 30 days. Max. 900 hours flight time in last 365 days. As per CAO 48.0.1.3 that must include ALL PRIVATE FLYING. If his operator has excemptions or operates on a fatigue management system then those limits apply and again private operations are counted. I'm not surprised that CASA has given him a hard time. Perhaps he uses one of these pens where the ink fades quickly.
Ozoilfield.. .. .The instrument you referred me to is merely a permission under CAR 152.. .. .Its only effect is that parachute jumps conducted in accordance with its conditions are not in breach of CAR 152. That is all.. .. .The conditions of a permission to conduct parachute jumps cannot be – and hence do not purport to be – an exemption from the requirement to hold an AOC.. .. .The AOC requirement applies to parachute operations the same as it applies to any other operations.. .. .If a pilot gets a few parachuting mates together to go parachuting and they all share the costs equally between them (including the pilot), that’s private, and accordingly the operation need not be authorised by an AOC. And if they also satisfy the conditions of a permission under CAR 152, they don’t breach CAR 152. . .. .If the owner of an aircraft pays a pilot to take them parachuting, that’s private, and accordingly the operation need not be authorised by an AOC. And if they also.... . .. .If a pilot’s given free hours in command to carry passengers in an aircraft they don’t own, that’s charter. Parachutist are passengers until they exit the aircraft. If the operation is not conducted under the authority of AOC, the Civil Aviation Act is breached, notwithstanding that the operations may have been conducted in accordance with CAR 152.. .. .I Fly: spot on (except for not picking up the fact that the “twin-engined turbine aircraft on parachuting flights on Saturday and Sunday” were commercial and counted anyway, unless they all (including the pilot) shared the costs or the parachutist/s owned the aircraft).. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 11:07: Message edited by: Creampuff ]</small>
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Creampuff, . .. .What does "take into account" in CAO 48.0:1.3 actually mean?. .. .Know of any case law?. .. .Is there any factual basis behind Ozoilfield and Triadic's assertions that I can fly home but not to work in my private aircraft? What about in my ultralight? . .. .I wonder about such firm views of such a vague notion. If those views indeed reflect the intention of the legislation, I also wonder why the drafter or those that followed didn't choose a construct such as "all private flight undertaken within 10 hours of the commencement of a duty period to which pertinent provisions of Part 48 apply shall be treated as if the relevant flight or portion of the flight was a commercial flight..." or similar.
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Creampuff,. .As BIK would be aware, there is a parachute operator in sydney that has more aircraft/chopper than most flying schools (including several turbine and jetranger) and has no AOC, no chief pilot, no commercial operation. Skydiving is with out a doubt a private operation. Some of the pilots, whom I know, are CPL but most are PPL
Funny how three people can read the same thing and get four opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .Must be something to do with suiting their own purpose?. .. .Read it again, pretty simple really.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 07:31: Message edited by: Icarus2001 ]</small>
coomacowboy: All day people drive down the road outside my house at 60mph. Does that mean that "without doubt" it's legal to drive down the road outside my house at 60mph?. .. .Key point: the fact that something happens does not mean it's legal.. .. .If the operator to whom you referred kills a plane load of passengers, lots of people are going to find themselves in a whole lot of very serious legal and financial pain. That includes the regulator, if the regulator is turning a blind eye to operations that should be but aren't authorised by an AOC, and should be but aren't covered by passenger liability insurance.. .. .4dogs: "take into account" means to include as a factor in the calculation. Note the distinction between the obligations imposed on the operator and the obligations imposed on the pilot. The operator may not know what private flying the pilot is doing or is going to do. The operator is in those circumstances unable to take the pilot's private flying into account, simply because the operator does not know about it. The pilot on the other hand does know, and is obliged to take it into account to the extent that the CAO 48.1 obligations are imposed on him or her. So the pilots who might think that commercial parachuting ops are private are obliged to take that kind of flying into account any way, and if their AOC-holding employers know about it, they are obliged to take it into account also.
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Lets face it, depends on what state your in, the different CASA offices have their own different opinions, thats what I've found, but Ive never come across anyone that includes private flying as duty time, but Ive seen someone get a NCN for not including private flying in his FLIGHT TIMES, ok thats my 2c worth.
BIK. .. .The carriage of passengers or cargo. .for hire or reward . .to or from any place . .is charter: CARs 206(1)(b)(i) and 2(7)(b).. .. .People other than operating crew on board an aircraft are passengers: see the definition of “passenger” in CAR 2(1). Parachutists are therefore “passengers” while they are on an aircraft. (Note that even if parachutists are characterised as “cargo”, the carriage of cargo for hire and reward to or from etc is charter.). .. .If the operator or the pilot of the aircraft are paid or receive any other reward (such as free flying hours) for carrying parachutists, passengers are being carried for hire or reward. Please note that the provision says: for hire or reward, not: for hire and reward.. .. .The point where parachutists enter the aircraft is a “place”, and accordingly within the scope of “any place”, from which they are carried. Please note the provision says: to or from any place”, not: to and from any place. . .. .Now have a look at CAR 206(1A)(a) and notice that the carriage of passengers for hire or reward in accordance with CAR 262AM(7) is excluded from the scope of prescribed operations for which an AOC is required. CAR 262AM(7) applies to operations of limited category aircraft for the purpose, among other purposes, of “parachute jumping”. The outcome is that if you conduct parachute jumping operations for hire and reward in a limited category aircraft and satisfy the other conditions of CAR262AM(7), you do not need to hold the AOC that, but for CAR 206(1A), you would have to hold.. .. .The 64K questions BIK: . .. .If all parachute jumping operations are private, why would they need to be excluded under CAR 206(1A) from the prescribed operations for which an AOC is required? . .. .Parachute jumping operations for hire and reward in limited category aircraft are expressly excluded from the scope of prescribed operations for which an AOC is required, provided the other requirements of CAR262AM(7) are met: CAR 206(1A)(a). If parachute jumping operations for hire and reward are conducted in an aircraft other than a limited category aircraft, where is the provision that excludes the operation from the AOC requirement?. .. .[edited to correct formatting error]. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 11:43: Message edited by: Creampuff ]</small>
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Hmmmmm. .. .And I thought that the regs were being simplified into 'Plane talk'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .Notwithstanding the current regs as written and the above discussion, why not just despatch with this ridiculous notion of 'private' 'employment' or otherwise.. .The object of the reg is to protect the pilot, unsuspecting pax and persons underneath the flight path from some zombie pilot taking them out.. .That means ANY flight time private or otherwise and if it is necessary to apply a duty time to private ops whats wrong with using the old definition that is applied to commercial ops for the purpose of defining duty time, viz whatever the elapsed flight time is for the day say total 3 hours parachuting flight time starting at 7am and finishing at 7pm with the flt prep and pack up applied at each end.. .. .From a practical viewpoint you are not going to get far with me and my counsel if you take out any of my family whilst barging around the airspace on some bull**** legal interpretation of whatever. . .. ."But yer 'onour I only flew the parachutists very lightly, hec, they were only passengers in the aircraft for a few minutes, hardly touched the controls, avoided doing any real thinking and concentrated hard on my incredible lightness of being, coz I knew I had to crew a 15 hr flight very early the next morning and I didn't want to be tired for it". .. .Who was resposible for and who is driving the need for their to be any distinction. I'll bet it's not the operators. .. .As an aside, there was TN Capt famous for allegedly moonlighting as a importer of used aircraft using his ID90 and his RDOs to ferry them across the pond. This saved a significant amount of money by not having to pay a ferry pilot. He was observed allegedly stepping out of a single after a 15 plus hour ferry leg to walk across the tarmac to command a coupla sectors in his real job. . .CAIRS and a number of representations failed to evince any action from our regulator, due I believe to the above discussed confusion and their then general reluctance to act on anything that wasn't prima facie on the TV news. . .It wasn't until several tyro Oz pilots were lost off the West African coast allegedly in his company and as a result of his activities that he was invited to resign for allegedly 'conduct unbecoming'. Dunno where he is today but hell would be a good place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 12:54: Message edited by: gaunty ]</small>