Urgent: Skies grow dark for Air NZ, Ansett in Huge Trouble:CONFIRMED
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lets also not forget the other virgin brands a little more. if virgin atlantic flys to OZ or NZ then i think ANZ and QF are bricking it. imagine what ANZ thought when they kitted out the Virgin 747's last and this year in Auckland. they saw state of the art inflight entertainment with videos, phones and ninentendo for every passenger, inflight bar with stools and couch and in flight beuty stations for airfares cheaper than what they could offer with a pull down 3 colour cinema screen ala 1970's inflight entertainment. profit margins will hurt more as the public will have a choice and they will march with their dollars.
Directors yesterday confirmed that Ansett was losing $A1.3 million ($1.5 million) a day in earnings before interest and tax.
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Frankly I think AN/ANZ is in the process of being SHAFTED by the govt of Singapore who basically controll BRL And SIA and who is already in bed with Virgin Atlantic. The taxpayers of Aus/NZ are been lined up as well. The Pm,s of both need cool heads and wise council.
If AN/ANZ goes tits up the International landing rights still belong to the Governments of Aus/NZ
The gutless wonders in this sorry saga are the share holders who should front up and recapitilise their shares
The Singapore Government who really control are acting like a wrecking crew
Paranoia say this this is all about domination by a few and when this happens there will be no such thing as cheap/ discount air travel
If AN/ANZ goes tits up the International landing rights still belong to the Governments of Aus/NZ
The gutless wonders in this sorry saga are the share holders who should front up and recapitilise their shares
The Singapore Government who really control are acting like a wrecking crew
Paranoia say this this is all about domination by a few and when this happens there will be no such thing as cheap/ discount air travel
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Please excuse my simplistic views but they make sense to me.
As AN is a part of Australias domestic infrastructure (as is QF) I can understand why the Government may see the need to keep AN in business, as opposed to say, Onetel.
To me the simplest and "cleanest" way to solve this problem is for the Australian Government to purchase AN from ANZ "lock stock and barrel" and operate it itself until it can be refloated on the market to investors. (preferably Aussie ones)
LETS START TO BUY BACK THE FARM!!!
Simplistic, I know.
BSB
As AN is a part of Australias domestic infrastructure (as is QF) I can understand why the Government may see the need to keep AN in business, as opposed to say, Onetel.
To me the simplest and "cleanest" way to solve this problem is for the Australian Government to purchase AN from ANZ "lock stock and barrel" and operate it itself until it can be refloated on the market to investors. (preferably Aussie ones)
LETS START TO BUY BACK THE FARM!!!
Simplistic, I know.
BSB
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Part of release from latest news
Air NZ gives Aussies ultimatum
08 September 2001
By ROELAND VAN DEN BERGH
The Australian Government has been given till tomorrow night to bail out Ansett Australia or Air New Zealand will put the crippled airline in receivership, sources say.
Full story http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/index/0,1...910a11,FF.html
Air NZ gives Aussies ultimatum
08 September 2001
By ROELAND VAN DEN BERGH
The Australian Government has been given till tomorrow night to bail out Ansett Australia or Air New Zealand will put the crippled airline in receivership, sources say.
Full story http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/index/0,1...910a11,FF.html
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Why should the Australian taxpayer bail out Ansett?
Are you saying that any failed buisness should be propped up by the goverment? Because thats what you appear to be suggesting.
Gee we have a buisness thats struggling right now and could go under,jobs will be lost I think I will ask little Johnnie Howard to buy us out that would be great !!!
Ansett has been managed very badly in recent times and incidentaly together with Qantas was instrumental in putting Compass out of buisiness , I didnt see any goverment buy out of Compass to save Aussie jobs then!
Look if you run a company badly and get to the stage where its no longer financially viable to continue, tough , something has to give , either inject more capital, sell it or close it down.
To ask the goverment and by defacto the public to bail them out is not on.
Why should I dig into my pocket to fork out even more of my dosh to keep a failed enterprise going?
If we did that everytime a company threatened to fold the country would be bankrupt within a year.
On the otherhand if Ansett could be bought at a realistic price because it made FINANCIAL sense to do so, that would be a different matter all together, however the current owners of Ansett would take a big hit I would suspect and would much prefer a taxpayer funded free hand out.
Are you saying that any failed buisness should be propped up by the goverment? Because thats what you appear to be suggesting.
Gee we have a buisness thats struggling right now and could go under,jobs will be lost I think I will ask little Johnnie Howard to buy us out that would be great !!!
Ansett has been managed very badly in recent times and incidentaly together with Qantas was instrumental in putting Compass out of buisiness , I didnt see any goverment buy out of Compass to save Aussie jobs then!
Look if you run a company badly and get to the stage where its no longer financially viable to continue, tough , something has to give , either inject more capital, sell it or close it down.
To ask the goverment and by defacto the public to bail them out is not on.
Why should I dig into my pocket to fork out even more of my dosh to keep a failed enterprise going?
If we did that everytime a company threatened to fold the country would be bankrupt within a year.
On the otherhand if Ansett could be bought at a realistic price because it made FINANCIAL sense to do so, that would be a different matter all together, however the current owners of Ansett would take a big hit I would suspect and would much prefer a taxpayer funded free hand out.
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In that news story above, it says that the NZ Government will NOT bail out the Company, even though it is a NZ Company and their flag carrier, and yet they expect the Australian Government to bail out a NZ Company?
No way surely..........
It is virtually black mail now, they say they have cancelled Monday's meeting with the people from Virgin, will NOT provide the bail out money themselves, but unless Australia does they will put Ansett into receivership?
I sincerely hope that the Australian Government does NOT give in to this blackmail...............
No way surely..........
It is virtually black mail now, they say they have cancelled Monday's meeting with the people from Virgin, will NOT provide the bail out money themselves, but unless Australia does they will put Ansett into receivership?
I sincerely hope that the Australian Government does NOT give in to this blackmail...............
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How long before CASA acts and issues AN with a show cause under Section 28(2) of the Act?
If it has not the money to run the company, what, in the eyes of CASA, is the first thing a company cuts back on?
Answer: maintenance.
Did we not see this already with AN over Christmas and Easter?
Are the bells ringing in Canberra yet?
If it has not the money to run the company, what, in the eyes of CASA, is the first thing a company cuts back on?
Answer: maintenance.
Did we not see this already with AN over Christmas and Easter?
Are the bells ringing in Canberra yet?
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Faheel read Chumbus post on page 5. I think he is on the right track. Lets get control of AN back off NZ and build it up to be one of our national airlines.
A few things people forget. Ansett is a houshold brand in Australia, just like any other houshold brand. There is STILL a lot of goodwill to that name. It is still a marketable product in the right hands.
Secondly, there is a lot of personal pride with the employees in Ansett and subsidiaries that wants to see the company succeed. If the government gets our airline back off the New Zealanders, with their help, the majority of employees will put in the effort to turn it around and make it a successful Australian airline again, with profits benifiting Australians not Singaporeans or whoever else. Be mad not to considering the current options. Those few employees that don't have the desire to help should be amongst those to go in the shakeup.
I don't see it as "bail out" as such by the government, rather as a loan in re-establishing some aussie infrastructure and securing thousands of aussie jobs.
It dumbfounded me to see the rediculous statement made by Helen Clarke last night "We want to establish a strong Air NZ........" Hello ?? you stupid women, you are about to lose the whole shebang. Must start thinking with your brain lovie. Be quick about it too !
One final point before leaving the soapbox. As I understand no official statement, memo or anything has been passed on by management to its staff, certainly not those that I know. They look to the credible reporting of 7,9,10 for the latest updates on their jobs. Time to stop the rumours Gary with a little fact, for the good or the bad.
A recent sticker circulated around "AN Flying For AN Pilots"! Time to unite guys and lets make it "AN Jobs For All Australians"
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: beerpleasehostess ]
A few things people forget. Ansett is a houshold brand in Australia, just like any other houshold brand. There is STILL a lot of goodwill to that name. It is still a marketable product in the right hands.
Secondly, there is a lot of personal pride with the employees in Ansett and subsidiaries that wants to see the company succeed. If the government gets our airline back off the New Zealanders, with their help, the majority of employees will put in the effort to turn it around and make it a successful Australian airline again, with profits benifiting Australians not Singaporeans or whoever else. Be mad not to considering the current options. Those few employees that don't have the desire to help should be amongst those to go in the shakeup.
I don't see it as "bail out" as such by the government, rather as a loan in re-establishing some aussie infrastructure and securing thousands of aussie jobs.
It dumbfounded me to see the rediculous statement made by Helen Clarke last night "We want to establish a strong Air NZ........" Hello ?? you stupid women, you are about to lose the whole shebang. Must start thinking with your brain lovie. Be quick about it too !
One final point before leaving the soapbox. As I understand no official statement, memo or anything has been passed on by management to its staff, certainly not those that I know. They look to the credible reporting of 7,9,10 for the latest updates on their jobs. Time to stop the rumours Gary with a little fact, for the good or the bad.
A recent sticker circulated around "AN Flying For AN Pilots"! Time to unite guys and lets make it "AN Jobs For All Australians"
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: beerpleasehostess ]
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Yeah, good point, where has Gary Two.of.me been hiding through all of this? I for one, was very impressed with his high profile over the Easter crisis. Isn't this a good time to show the same style of accountable leadership? Absolutely!
Time to drag out the gold "power" tie and face the cameras Gary, or start preparing 15,000 written references for resumes.
Time to drag out the gold "power" tie and face the cameras Gary, or start preparing 15,000 written references for resumes.
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Some of the credit for ANs woes have to lie with the staff. 5 people doing the job of one, on totally unreasonable salaries for todays environment. Wake up and smell the coffee - time for some hard times. Ansett needs to be lean to survive, not the bloated "Jaba the Hutt" it is now. Take a good look around, those companies that survive have done the hard yards. The unions (and yes, I am a strong union member) need to take stock - its either 5000 jobs gone and the rest on reasonable, not rediculous earnings, or the whole lot will go. Don't lay all the blame at the Kiwis door, take a good look at the arse covering and greed within the "Great Aussie Icon". Great Aussie mis-management more like it.
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Some excellent posts and knowledgeable comment in this thread, clearly something that affects and interests many in this business.
Clearly there are 2 issues yet to become clear, how/who will recapitalise NZ/AN, what will the subsequent operating plan be? Political comment seems to indicate that government input may be from a facilitation rather from a direct finance perspective, money has to come from somewhere to restructure, re-financing of the fleet possibly? Buy out from another carrier/consortium? Political handout? No-one is going to buy a sinking ship for big money, maybe for a bargain with a view to either refloating or using for scrap.
What then for the future, AN are a high cost operation largely working in a low yeild market, their main competition has the ability to offset domestic operating costs within the group as a result of the much larger international operation - that won't change. VB already have a low cost competitive structure as do SJ. As many have eluded to in this thread - ongoing costs will have to be rationaised [for that read cut] on both sides of the Tasman, realistically that means reducing the variable costs as much as possible [staff, salaries, rents, etc] and restructure the high costs where possible [aircraft refinancing, fuel purchase, etc].
Anything that happens to AN will ultimately affect the direction of the aviation business in Australia, the carrier I work for has a number of passengers that interline on to AN from the international ports, what affect any AN change will make is unknown but could decrease the business coming in to Australia. Who knows?
We live in interesting times, as I have friends in both NZ and AN my good wishes are with them, we can only hope that a mutually beneficial solution is finalised. Soon.
Clearly there are 2 issues yet to become clear, how/who will recapitalise NZ/AN, what will the subsequent operating plan be? Political comment seems to indicate that government input may be from a facilitation rather from a direct finance perspective, money has to come from somewhere to restructure, re-financing of the fleet possibly? Buy out from another carrier/consortium? Political handout? No-one is going to buy a sinking ship for big money, maybe for a bargain with a view to either refloating or using for scrap.
What then for the future, AN are a high cost operation largely working in a low yeild market, their main competition has the ability to offset domestic operating costs within the group as a result of the much larger international operation - that won't change. VB already have a low cost competitive structure as do SJ. As many have eluded to in this thread - ongoing costs will have to be rationaised [for that read cut] on both sides of the Tasman, realistically that means reducing the variable costs as much as possible [staff, salaries, rents, etc] and restructure the high costs where possible [aircraft refinancing, fuel purchase, etc].
Anything that happens to AN will ultimately affect the direction of the aviation business in Australia, the carrier I work for has a number of passengers that interline on to AN from the international ports, what affect any AN change will make is unknown but could decrease the business coming in to Australia. Who knows?
We live in interesting times, as I have friends in both NZ and AN my good wishes are with them, we can only hope that a mutually beneficial solution is finalised. Soon.
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I fully agree Virgil. One doesn't have to be a rhodes scholar (my thanks to the spelling police) to see that they are overstaffed and in some cases (not all) they are overpaid. Especially where jobs are duplicated through the group and their subsidiaries. My thoughts:
1. Government assistance to re-equip and restructure and to get through the immediate poo they are in. Buy back AN from ANZ for a song.
2. Voluntary redundencies offered in duplicated areas of the group. There is some old dead wood amongst the new keen and happy employees which are the ones they need at the moment. Remove the Managers mangaging managers managing managers. ie one chief for several indians. Avoid redundencies in specialised areas such as flight crew where huge investments in company and aircraft specific training have occured. Redeploy as many as possible existing staff throughout the network where needed
3. Restructure to align all subsidiary airlines with the main airline and other alliances and areas of the group to use common facilities and infrustructure without duplication. A common minimal type fleet.
4. Renegotiate contracts and agreements with staff and contractors.
5. Further redundancies and/or normal attrition again in duplicated areas or maximum use of holidays to minimise job losses and use up accrued leave.
6. Re-employment of skilled and available trained staff as the airline re-equips. (unless they have gone to qantas in the meantime!)
7. Hopefully back on track and repay any loaned money or dividends back to the aussie taxpayer.
Seems all too common sense to me and obiously not an overnight fix. As I say,only my thoughts for what they are worth. Shoot me down by all means.
Alternative, 15000+ people on whatever the going dole rate is.
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: beerpleasehostess ]
1. Government assistance to re-equip and restructure and to get through the immediate poo they are in. Buy back AN from ANZ for a song.
2. Voluntary redundencies offered in duplicated areas of the group. There is some old dead wood amongst the new keen and happy employees which are the ones they need at the moment. Remove the Managers mangaging managers managing managers. ie one chief for several indians. Avoid redundencies in specialised areas such as flight crew where huge investments in company and aircraft specific training have occured. Redeploy as many as possible existing staff throughout the network where needed
3. Restructure to align all subsidiary airlines with the main airline and other alliances and areas of the group to use common facilities and infrustructure without duplication. A common minimal type fleet.
4. Renegotiate contracts and agreements with staff and contractors.
5. Further redundancies and/or normal attrition again in duplicated areas or maximum use of holidays to minimise job losses and use up accrued leave.
6. Re-employment of skilled and available trained staff as the airline re-equips. (unless they have gone to qantas in the meantime!)
7. Hopefully back on track and repay any loaned money or dividends back to the aussie taxpayer.
Seems all too common sense to me and obiously not an overnight fix. As I say,only my thoughts for what they are worth. Shoot me down by all means.
Alternative, 15000+ people on whatever the going dole rate is.
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: beerpleasehostess ]
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Latest from ABC on line news.........
*Effort continues to save Ansett and Air NZ*
Talks over the future of Ansett Airlines and its parent company, Air New
Zealand, are continuing today on a number of fronts.
Australian Treasurer Peter Costello and his New Zealand counterpart,
Michael Cullen, will talk this weekend in the southern Chinese city of
Suzhou.
The financial advisors to Air New Zealand, meanwhile, are developing a
refinancing plan to take to Monday's board meeting.
The New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark, says the situation looks
brighter today than it did yesterday and she is confident of the success
of the rescue package.
Ansett losses are running at approximately $1.3 million a day.
The Australian Services Union's Martin Foley, which represents half of
Ansett's
16,000 staff, says it is up to the two governments to ensure that Ansett
and Air New Zealand survive in the short-term.
"In the short-term, they've got to be prepared if necessary to
underwrite and immediate share issue to raise capital, to keep both
airlines flying," Mr Foley said.
"In the longer-term, they've got to set a framework that attracts an
investor who's committed to it and who's committed to keeping the
airline in the sky in the future."
______________________________
*Effort continues to save Ansett and Air NZ*
Talks over the future of Ansett Airlines and its parent company, Air New
Zealand, are continuing today on a number of fronts.
Australian Treasurer Peter Costello and his New Zealand counterpart,
Michael Cullen, will talk this weekend in the southern Chinese city of
Suzhou.
The financial advisors to Air New Zealand, meanwhile, are developing a
refinancing plan to take to Monday's board meeting.
The New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark, says the situation looks
brighter today than it did yesterday and she is confident of the success
of the rescue package.
Ansett losses are running at approximately $1.3 million a day.
The Australian Services Union's Martin Foley, which represents half of
Ansett's
16,000 staff, says it is up to the two governments to ensure that Ansett
and Air New Zealand survive in the short-term.
"In the short-term, they've got to be prepared if necessary to
underwrite and immediate share issue to raise capital, to keep both
airlines flying," Mr Foley said.
"In the longer-term, they've got to set a framework that attracts an
investor who's committed to it and who's committed to keeping the
airline in the sky in the future."
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Let's just look at the facts.
1) ANZ is not spilling any red ink, AN is, if ANZ cut AN lose it would continue to be a profit maker (but would be repaying lost AN capital for years to come)
2)Gazza inherited this mess. He was a long time after AN had been bought by some brain surgeons on the ANZ board. I think he is doing a great job despite the lemon he has to think about every waking hour. ::eek
3)AN was a very sick puppy when ANZ bought it.....and god only knows why...see 2)
4)It's "Rhodes scholar"
5)ridiculous
1) ANZ is not spilling any red ink, AN is, if ANZ cut AN lose it would continue to be a profit maker (but would be repaying lost AN capital for years to come)
2)Gazza inherited this mess. He was a long time after AN had been bought by some brain surgeons on the ANZ board. I think he is doing a great job despite the lemon he has to think about every waking hour. ::eek
3)AN was a very sick puppy when ANZ bought it.....and god only knows why...see 2)
4)It's "Rhodes scholar"
5)ridiculous
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
Some posts are starting to become a little Australia VS New Zealand, could we PLEASE discuss this extremely important subject without any of that?
Save that for discussing (slightly) less important things like Cricket, Rugby, any other sport etc....... (maybe not yachting)
Best regards,
"lame"
Some posts are starting to become a little Australia VS New Zealand, could we PLEASE discuss this extremely important subject without any of that?
Save that for discussing (slightly) less important things like Cricket, Rugby, any other sport etc....... (maybe not yachting)
Best regards,
"lame"
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Just for the record, I think Gary is doing a fine job and definately did so throught the 767 debarcle. I just wish his board would send some truths the way of the staff to null the rumours and mistruths
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Latest from New Zealand............
TOP STORY
SATURDAY, 08 SEPTEMBER 2001
T O P S T O R Y
Air NZ gets ray of light
08 September 2001
Prime Minister Helen Clark threw a ray of light today on a new airline rescue plan being developed by beleaguered Air New Zealand.
Miss Clark said today she hopes the airline can find a solution to its financial problems with Ansett Australia, which is haemorrhaging at the rate of about a $1.3 million a day.
"I'm optimistic there will be a way through," she said.
"The (Air New Zealand) board is developing a plan.
"It looks brighter than it did 24 hours ago."
Miss Clark wouldn't say what the plan would entail.
Air NZ is seeking an equity injection to help fund a fleet replacement programme for Ansett Australia.
Finance Minister Michael Cullen was to discuss the Air NZ crisis with Australian counterpart Peter Costello in Shanghai at the Apec Finance Ministers' meeting today, but their talks will be held against the background of an official hands-off policy.
Australian Prime Minister John Howard last night reiterated his opposition to a federal bailout to preserve Ansett Australia.
Miss Clark said today Mr Howard's comments reflected the view of the New Zealand Government - that it didn't want to bail out airlines.
Miss Clark said Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Blue didn't want to be part of any bailout. A spokeswoman for Transport Minister Mark Gosche said he didn't want to comment today.
Business Roundtable chief executive Roger Kerr today said governments should not take an investment role in a risky commercial business.
"Governments have important roles to undertake, but airlines, as we can see pretty visibly at the moment, are risky commercial businesses and taxpayers' money shouldn't be put at risk."
TOP STORY
SATURDAY, 08 SEPTEMBER 2001
T O P S T O R Y
Air NZ gets ray of light
08 September 2001
Prime Minister Helen Clark threw a ray of light today on a new airline rescue plan being developed by beleaguered Air New Zealand.
Miss Clark said today she hopes the airline can find a solution to its financial problems with Ansett Australia, which is haemorrhaging at the rate of about a $1.3 million a day.
"I'm optimistic there will be a way through," she said.
"The (Air New Zealand) board is developing a plan.
"It looks brighter than it did 24 hours ago."
Miss Clark wouldn't say what the plan would entail.
Air NZ is seeking an equity injection to help fund a fleet replacement programme for Ansett Australia.
Finance Minister Michael Cullen was to discuss the Air NZ crisis with Australian counterpart Peter Costello in Shanghai at the Apec Finance Ministers' meeting today, but their talks will be held against the background of an official hands-off policy.
Australian Prime Minister John Howard last night reiterated his opposition to a federal bailout to preserve Ansett Australia.
Miss Clark said today Mr Howard's comments reflected the view of the New Zealand Government - that it didn't want to bail out airlines.
Miss Clark said Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Blue didn't want to be part of any bailout. A spokeswoman for Transport Minister Mark Gosche said he didn't want to comment today.
Business Roundtable chief executive Roger Kerr today said governments should not take an investment role in a risky commercial business.
"Governments have important roles to undertake, but airlines, as we can see pretty visibly at the moment, are risky commercial businesses and taxpayers' money shouldn't be put at risk."