Beach patrol Perth
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Beach patrol Perth
I understand that once again a substantial government grant ($250G?) for this "beach patrol" has been awarded to the same people as last year.
Meanwhile at least two professional aviation operators who expressed interest in this work to the govt didn't get a look in.
If our taxpayers money is being used, why wasn't it put out to tender in the normal way?
And why is a LABOUR goverment giving this money to an organisation who pay the Commercially licenced pilots who do the patrols ZILCH. (when if you do the sums, it looks like they could be paid the Award and still have a tidy profit)
And why are these pilots agreeing to do it for ZILCH? Because they have been told they will get "valuable experience"? Sad that the part of their education that says it is detrimental to the whole industry to have pilots working for nothing, seems to have been omitted...
I think we should be told.
Meanwhile at least two professional aviation operators who expressed interest in this work to the govt didn't get a look in.
If our taxpayers money is being used, why wasn't it put out to tender in the normal way?
And why is a LABOUR goverment giving this money to an organisation who pay the Commercially licenced pilots who do the patrols ZILCH. (when if you do the sums, it looks like they could be paid the Award and still have a tidy profit)
And why are these pilots agreeing to do it for ZILCH? Because they have been told they will get "valuable experience"? Sad that the part of their education that says it is detrimental to the whole industry to have pilots working for nothing, seems to have been omitted...
I think we should be told.
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The organisations are volunteer only.
The organisations at Melbourne and Wollongong are run much the same way. The Aerial Patrol have to apply for the new grant just like everyone else. The organisations are run from this grant and also on donations. They work alongside other volunteer organisations such as the Bushfiries, Surf Life Saving Assoc etc.
Obviously some are being paid i.e GM and CP's.
You might say better the devil you know, however it would be costly to the organisation that has the grant withdrawn and as for the crews being inexperienced, I take it that was your insinuation, the East coast fellas are very experienced and have high minimums to get in. This I believe should be the only job in this industry to 'work for free'. Remember its not just the fools on the beach they gey called out for although it may be in W.A, depends on the SAR contract they have.
Why are you so bitter about it anyway?
The organisations at Melbourne and Wollongong are run much the same way. The Aerial Patrol have to apply for the new grant just like everyone else. The organisations are run from this grant and also on donations. They work alongside other volunteer organisations such as the Bushfiries, Surf Life Saving Assoc etc.
Obviously some are being paid i.e GM and CP's.
You might say better the devil you know, however it would be costly to the organisation that has the grant withdrawn and as for the crews being inexperienced, I take it that was your insinuation, the East coast fellas are very experienced and have high minimums to get in. This I believe should be the only job in this industry to 'work for free'. Remember its not just the fools on the beach they gey called out for although it may be in W.A, depends on the SAR contract they have.
Why are you so bitter about it anyway?
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CFI,
As a pilot who is involved with these "patrols", I couldn't agree more that we should be PAID for our time.
Not quite sure where you get the $250k from. Advise? As the government will get the aircraft at cost.
As to it not going out to tender, I can't comment as I don't know the situation or contract agreed too. I guess it was a lowest bidder wins.
If you were offered the contract would you employ low-time fresh CPL guys to do the work? Say around 15 of them to split "the experience"? or would it go straight to 3 of your instructors and remain in-house?
As it stands, this situation does benefit a number of pilots as each will get around 50+hrs out of the patrols running till March, admitantely it won't benefit their wallets!
The main issue here is that no-one is really making a profit off this, I think!
There will ALWAYS be people willing to work for FREE or BELOW AWARD RATES then when it comes to bigger and better jobs these guys have "the hours" whilst the guys who didn't work for free still find themselves in the dole que. Which one would you prefer to be?
You can't blame people for wanting to advance their careers as quickly as possible, people make alot of sacrifices to get their licences and buidling experience is no exception.
I know it undermines the integrity of all pilots by working for free or peanuts, short of ALL THE PATROL PILOTS STRIKING FOR A WAGE LET ALONE AN INCREASE! Hehe... I am not sure what do to. I doubt extremely highly we would get everyone to say no we aren't flying until we get paid.
I expect the contract wouldn't even go ahead if another company took over it's operation as this would cost too much, but if you've run some figures off CFI I would love to see them.
We all make decisions, we all live with the consequences.
Regards
R166AB
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: R166AB ]
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: R166AB ]
As a pilot who is involved with these "patrols", I couldn't agree more that we should be PAID for our time.
Not quite sure where you get the $250k from. Advise? As the government will get the aircraft at cost.
As to it not going out to tender, I can't comment as I don't know the situation or contract agreed too. I guess it was a lowest bidder wins.
If you were offered the contract would you employ low-time fresh CPL guys to do the work? Say around 15 of them to split "the experience"? or would it go straight to 3 of your instructors and remain in-house?
As it stands, this situation does benefit a number of pilots as each will get around 50+hrs out of the patrols running till March, admitantely it won't benefit their wallets!
The main issue here is that no-one is really making a profit off this, I think!
There will ALWAYS be people willing to work for FREE or BELOW AWARD RATES then when it comes to bigger and better jobs these guys have "the hours" whilst the guys who didn't work for free still find themselves in the dole que. Which one would you prefer to be?
You can't blame people for wanting to advance their careers as quickly as possible, people make alot of sacrifices to get their licences and buidling experience is no exception.
I know it undermines the integrity of all pilots by working for free or peanuts, short of ALL THE PATROL PILOTS STRIKING FOR A WAGE LET ALONE AN INCREASE! Hehe... I am not sure what do to. I doubt extremely highly we would get everyone to say no we aren't flying until we get paid.
I expect the contract wouldn't even go ahead if another company took over it's operation as this would cost too much, but if you've run some figures off CFI I would love to see them.
We all make decisions, we all live with the consequences.
Regards
R166AB
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: R166AB ]
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: R166AB ]
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CFI, the figure I have heard is $120K.
Rough calculations show that the aircraft, C172's, are earning about $200 an hour. By my book that's charter rate, and very profitable for the "volunteers" that are running it.
No tenders invited, no bidding for the contract, no money for the pilots.
Rough calculations show that the aircraft, C172's, are earning about $200 an hour. By my book that's charter rate, and very profitable for the "volunteers" that are running it.
No tenders invited, no bidding for the contract, no money for the pilots.
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Labrat,
Where do you get your info from? If they are getting $200/hr @ 6 hrs per day for 4-5 months this would average $170,000. A bit off your quote of 120k!
I doubt they'll be getting 200/hr for the 172.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: R166AB ]
Where do you get your info from? If they are getting $200/hr @ 6 hrs per day for 4-5 months this would average $170,000. A bit off your quote of 120k!
I doubt they'll be getting 200/hr for the 172.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: R166AB ]
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As I understand it the beach patrol is run by Edith Cowan University and you have to go to or have been to the uni to fly the 172RG ECU around. The people organising it were x ECU students and the lecturer from ECU and weren't paid either. The chance to get some valuable experience from the uni was about the only valuable thing I got from 3 years at that joint.
Just for my 2 cents worth I believe that a few hours for a couple of starving uni students trying to get into a plane once in a while is not exactly taking a huge contract out of the hands of any charter company at YPJT anyway. So give the kids a break and let them buzz up and down the beach for a few hours a week and mabey save a life or two. Perhaps even make people feel a little better about the aviation industry by looking out for them in the skys.
Just for my 2 cents worth I believe that a few hours for a couple of starving uni students trying to get into a plane once in a while is not exactly taking a huge contract out of the hands of any charter company at YPJT anyway. So give the kids a break and let them buzz up and down the beach for a few hours a week and mabey save a life or two. Perhaps even make people feel a little better about the aviation industry by looking out for them in the skys.
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CFI
I totally agree with you.
Firstly, why didn’t the contract go out to tender? I’m sure there are a few companies at JT that would jump at the chance to put 6 hours a day on one of there C172’s.
Secondly, why is a Labor government supporting an organisation that is not only not paying award wages, but, not paying ANY wages.
Oh sure its “great experience” flying up and down the beach for 6 hours a day but when you consider that these commercial pilots are putting in around 7 to 8 hours a day it starts to look more like exploitation that “volunteer” work.
Having said all that, I have seen the operation first hand down there at TAC ad it is run VERY professionally, which is a credit to both the students from ECU and TAC management.
Finally I would like to echo the comments of R166AB by saying “it undermines the integrity of all pilots by working for free”.
inver TED
"When the going gets tough, increase your scan rate."
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: inver TED ]
I totally agree with you.
Firstly, why didn’t the contract go out to tender? I’m sure there are a few companies at JT that would jump at the chance to put 6 hours a day on one of there C172’s.
Secondly, why is a Labor government supporting an organisation that is not only not paying award wages, but, not paying ANY wages.
Oh sure its “great experience” flying up and down the beach for 6 hours a day but when you consider that these commercial pilots are putting in around 7 to 8 hours a day it starts to look more like exploitation that “volunteer” work.
Having said all that, I have seen the operation first hand down there at TAC ad it is run VERY professionally, which is a credit to both the students from ECU and TAC management.
Finally I would like to echo the comments of R166AB by saying “it undermines the integrity of all pilots by working for free”.
inver TED
"When the going gets tough, increase your scan rate."
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: inver TED ]
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Hard topic this one.
In my humble opinion it is a volunteer organisation. I know little about the ops they run over there but if there is any affiliation to the Central SAR offices or the SLSC etc then I fully back the volunteer side HOWEVER if they are just a commercial unit, this includes uni, they would only be doing it to make money whether directly or indirectly. They get all sorts of Gov grants to keep there costs down in every dept, thus not suprising they could undercut everyone else. It wouldn't suprise me if they advertised themselves to prospective students with this so called advancement in mind.
What I would be more concerned with is the experience level. Surely there not Low Level rated. I wonder how/who insures them to run this operation with low time pilots.
In my humble opinion it is a volunteer organisation. I know little about the ops they run over there but if there is any affiliation to the Central SAR offices or the SLSC etc then I fully back the volunteer side HOWEVER if they are just a commercial unit, this includes uni, they would only be doing it to make money whether directly or indirectly. They get all sorts of Gov grants to keep there costs down in every dept, thus not suprising they could undercut everyone else. It wouldn't suprise me if they advertised themselves to prospective students with this so called advancement in mind.
What I would be more concerned with is the experience level. Surely there not Low Level rated. I wonder how/who insures them to run this operation with low time pilots.
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Neil Boag runs the civil SAR unit. C-172 and PA31. Don't know the company name as yet or the apt. Hopefully I will get back to you if I don't forget. The hours are high and the list is long if you want in with any civil unit on the Eastern Seaboard.
Hi there CFI, long time no see!
Why don't you wirite your letter of protest/enquiry, and email it to the members of the Legislative Assembly on the Member's of parliament contact page?
In my experience you will at least gain a few replies, and may even spark a discussion in the house (although I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, as no government in Australia seems to care about aviation at the moment ).
Why don't you wirite your letter of protest/enquiry, and email it to the members of the Legislative Assembly on the Member's of parliament contact page?
In my experience you will at least gain a few replies, and may even spark a discussion in the house (although I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, as no government in Australia seems to care about aviation at the moment
).
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Woomera - you recently shut down a thread (Thank Christ I live in Australia) because it got political. One of your own moderators (CFI) has started this topic which is purely political.
Now another moderator (Checkboard),has added his political comment.
Could we kindly have some consistency in this forum or is it do as I say, not as I do!
Now another moderator (Checkboard),has added his political comment.
Could we kindly have some consistency in this forum or is it do as I say, not as I do!
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To add some sanity to this discussion ...
I'm involved with this SHARK patrol. It's a community service thing just like Rotary or Lions clubs clean up roadside waste. The pilots get to log the hours. The government cover the costs of operating the aircraft ie. fuel, oil and maintenance. I can tell you the first correspondent was out by more than a factor of 10 in his estimation of the money changing hands. (and no it's not $2.5 million...)
I'm involved with this SHARK patrol. It's a community service thing just like Rotary or Lions clubs clean up roadside waste. The pilots get to log the hours. The government cover the costs of operating the aircraft ie. fuel, oil and maintenance. I can tell you the first correspondent was out by more than a factor of 10 in his estimation of the money changing hands. (and no it's not $2.5 million...)
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I understand that the $250K was for aerial and boat patrols, with the funding split down the middle
If the boat patrols are being carried out by Fisheries Western Australia, I can't imagine them working for free!! If this is the case why aren't the aerial patrol being conducted by CALM?? Surely a Cub plodding along at 85kts is much more suited to this type of operation than a Cutlass zooming along 125kts. Or even better a helicopter???
Feel free to correct me on this one.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Capt L ]
If the boat patrols are being carried out by Fisheries Western Australia, I can't imagine them working for free!! If this is the case why aren't the aerial patrol being conducted by CALM?? Surely a Cub plodding along at 85kts is much more suited to this type of operation than a Cutlass zooming along 125kts. Or even better a helicopter???
Feel free to correct me on this one.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Capt L ]
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Geez what a pack of whinging grizzling trie hards.
The "Beach Patrol" started about 4-5 years ago. The "funding" a positively enormous $10,000 (yes there are only four(4) noughts there) came from the advertising provided each time the aircraft called into a local radio station with a beach report. Yes the pilot were NOT paid - if they had been there would have been NO PATROL, it was (and hopefully still is) that strange beast called 'a community service' the pilots (all students from ECU) volunteered their time fro which they got hours in their logbooks. No one in the industry lost out - it either happened that way or it did NOT happen. Of course if you cannot see the value in the provision of a community service then all the above is wasted - and you are a lesser being.
cheers
The "Beach Patrol" started about 4-5 years ago. The "funding" a positively enormous $10,000 (yes there are only four(4) noughts there) came from the advertising provided each time the aircraft called into a local radio station with a beach report. Yes the pilot were NOT paid - if they had been there would have been NO PATROL, it was (and hopefully still is) that strange beast called 'a community service' the pilots (all students from ECU) volunteered their time fro which they got hours in their logbooks. No one in the industry lost out - it either happened that way or it did NOT happen. Of course if you cannot see the value in the provision of a community service then all the above is wasted - and you are a lesser being.
cheers
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tubby one, I think that you are slightly confused.
The “Beach Patrol” has been running for a few years with a C152 running up and down the coast for three hours a day broadcasting reports to a local radio station.
The “Shark Patrol” which is what this discussion is about, started last year after the shark attack at Cottesloe. It runs six hours a day (two three hour shifts starting at 0600 and 0930) looking for sharks and helping out the water police on occasion.
Last Christmas the two actually run concurrently, but I’m not sure if that’s happening this year.
Happy landings
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: inver TED ]
The “Beach Patrol” has been running for a few years with a C152 running up and down the coast for three hours a day broadcasting reports to a local radio station.
The “Shark Patrol” which is what this discussion is about, started last year after the shark attack at Cottesloe. It runs six hours a day (two three hour shifts starting at 0600 and 0930) looking for sharks and helping out the water police on occasion.
Last Christmas the two actually run concurrently, but I’m not sure if that’s happening this year.
Happy landings
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: inver TED ]
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To add to the debate, tubby one is right to say it is a community service.
But does that mean it has to be voluntary? If the definition of a community service is that which is funded by the community for the community, in the form of rates and taxes, (as this beach/shark patrol is) then does that mean that the providers of other community services such as our police, teachers, doctors, nurses, defence force personnel, firefighters etc should work for nothing too?
Perhaps the line could be drawn where these people have studied and trained long and hard to gain professional qualifications, which these pilots have.
But does that mean it has to be voluntary? If the definition of a community service is that which is funded by the community for the community, in the form of rates and taxes, (as this beach/shark patrol is) then does that mean that the providers of other community services such as our police, teachers, doctors, nurses, defence force personnel, firefighters etc should work for nothing too?
Perhaps the line could be drawn where these people have studied and trained long and hard to gain professional qualifications, which these pilots have.