Flying Schools

[Hannah V]

Hey,

I was wondering if anyone could give me their opinions on the following flying schools - i.e.the value for money, the instructor to student ratio, the facilities of the schools and the overall reputation.

The schools i have been looking at are the:. .- Royal Newcastle Aeroclub. .- Basair Australia. .- Camden Aviation. .- AFTS

I am looking at getting my PPL and then progress to get my IR, ME, NR, CPL and ATPL theory.

If there are any other schools i should be looking at please let me know.

Thanks.

[Throtlemonkey]

I haven't had any experience with the schools you listed other than a few beers at Newcastle Aero Club, unless your planning to go down the instructing path I would be inclined to consider a school also does charter, most of these will give you some on the job experience once you have finished. The job market is very competitive and an extra 100 hours on top of your training will give you head start.

[OZ-FLYBOY]

Hi, well im with Basair at the moment. I cant say to much about them because i have only had 1hr so im not to expperienced but i can say they are very good instructors and have very good facilities. I did look around at other school at Bankstown and they did not look as good as Basair. Also in a recent "learning to fly" magazine they simply published the best schools in each state and Basiar came up #1 for NSW. but do shop around and ask othere student pilots. .seeya!. .Aviate-navigate-communicate

[awetzel]

I have never had anything to do with any of those in your list. I have heard good comments regarding AFTS.

Go and try; . .<a href="http://www.clamback-hennessy.com.au/" target="_blank">Clamback & Hennessy - EXCELLANT SERVICE/FRIENDLY PLUS SAFTEY NO#1, Good Value for time & Money!. .</a>

Also <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mathoe/" target="_blank">Illawarra Flying School - The oldest at Bankstown and still going strong, very good School</a>

Also <a href="http://www.ccac.com.au/" target="_blank">Central Coast - Warnervale Air - Very Good Service too</a>

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[shaablamm]

Try Aerospace aviation if you want to be an instructor or even as far away as Canberra, look at Brindabella.. .AFTS used to be very good. Camden Aviation is good but on a smaller scale, not like a factory. . .I learnt and worked with most of them years ago and it all comes down to the instructor and a/c maintenance.. .Remember you are the customer.

[awetzel]

Also try this search engine for schools & Clubs by State; <a href="http://www.aopa.com.au/clubs/club_list.html" target="_blank">AOPA Schools and Clubs</a>

Here is another good place to post an add too <a href="http://www.aopa.com.au/board/" target="_blank">AOPA Non-Members Forum</a>

Things to look for in a good School;

• Customer Service on the first contact (First impression is a lasting impression)

• Ask yourself are they really concerned about YOU or are you just another student contributing to keeping their business going.

• Itemise the things that they charge you for and don't charge for, and compare with other schools. (Some Schools charge you for briefing time and others don't.)

• Hourly rates they charge for training, compare for same model aircraft from other schools etc

• Ask for a list of their present and passed students (private and commercial) that you can ring for testimonies.

• Look for how does the School view safety

• Beware some instructors are good pilots but are lousy at training others. (No people skills)

• Have a look (view) at their aircraft and check out how well they look after them; does the school have its own LAME? (Do they have up to date equipment in the aircraft i.e., GPS, radios x 2 etc)

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[john_tullamarine]

Although I have a familiarity with some of the mentioned organisations and did my initial training with RAC/RNAC, it was all a long time ago so I don't think that I carry any baggage .. and, of course, the organisations and their staffs will have altered in the intervening period.

The priorities listed in the previous posts are all relevant but consider some other thoughts which I suggest are of fundamental importance -

(a) is the student advised to establish his/her bank balance so that the initial training can proceed at a sensible pace ? If you do an hour a day, then you progress much faster (in terms of flight hours to achieve a given standard) than if financial constraints make it an hour a fortnight. Likewise, are you encouraged (pushed ?) to get your theory exams done ahead of time so that the absence of necessary bits of paper doesn't delay your flying progress ?

(b) is there a comparatively high ratio of high time experienced instructors to junior instructors ? This has a bearing on mentoring, standards, and product quality control generally. The ratio of total instructors to students is, I suggest, of little relevance affecting only the workload that the school reasonably is able to undertake. If there are insufficient greybeards, though, then the supervision and mentoring of the junior instructors has to slide.

(c) are in-flight instruction hours matched by detailed preflight briefing and postflight debriefing sessions ? If you want good value here, expect to pay for it separately or be prepared to accept a higher instructor cost component in the dual flight rate. Certainly, if you get a hold of some good instructors, the learning value in the briefing sessions costs far less than slower progress in the air.

(d) for ab initio training, is a country airfield preferable due to lesser traffic density, airspace considerations, transit time to the training area, etc. ? Contrary-wise, is the city airport preferable in the later stages of training for just those reasons ?

(e) does the organisation's instructor staff pander to the student ? ie is the operation principally driven by the almighty dollar ? .. or is a bottom line attitude, flight standard, and sensible rate of progress emphasised ? What is the average time to solo and licence (considering frequency of flying) ? If the average student takes forever to solo, then something is not right.

(f) is the student able to complete a significant proportion of his/her training with only one or two instructors to minimise unproductive time spent by the next instructor in coming up to speed with the particular student's problems ? Does the school emphasise the use of extensive and constructive student progress records ?

(g) is the unserviceability record for the school's fleet acceptable. Does the school's system approach defect reporting and rectification sensibly and in accordance with the regulatory requirements ? .. or do you regularly find that the aircraft departs with a bunch of unknown, carried forward snags ? I wouldn't worry too much about fancy gadgets in the early stages, but this becomes important for later training.

[Turbine]

Similar thread worth reading <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=006290&p=" target="_blank">here</a>.

I think you should spend your time looking for a healthy compromise between an excellent instructor and a friendly school environment.

If you want to be a commercial pilot then you're simply wasting your time at the majority of privately owned flying schools (especially in Sydney). You must associate yourself with a school that has some sort of ownership, affiliation or association with a Charter Company or airline. In the absence of such a school, you are best to source yourself an instructor who can be your link to a working GA Charter Company.

Call up some larger charter companies or regional airlines and ask them if they have a preference of flight training establishment. Most charter companies will lean towards a particular school when recruiting. Ask the Chief Pilot to recommend an instructor or ask if they do any part time teaching themselves... they may well appreciate the time away from their desks <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

You mentioned Illawarra Flying School. Their senior instructor (Anthony?) is also the Chief Pilot of a Bank Running company. This is a link certainly worth investigating. These sorts of associations exists everywhere but you have to find them...

A big problem with the current training climate is that a good portion of the experienced and quality instructors have been sucked up by the airlines leaving the industry dry of any real knowledge. To make matters worse - the experienced guys in some cases have spent their entire careers at one establishment leaving them blind to different ways of operating.

Don't fly with an instructor who hasn't had any commercial exposure - especially if you want to fly commercially yourself. It's crazy that a grade 1 instructor can teach a commercial syllabus without ever actually having done any charter flying before in his life! Bankstown is littered with senior instructors that have never flown 'professionally' before so it's very important to shop around.

Find an instructor that is qualified to take you through your elementary training to Multi IFR. Although there is some merit in occasionally flying with other people, your instructor should remain with you for the entire duration of your licence.

I agree entirely with john_tullamarine's excellent post! Don't be fooled by bright white shirts, a fancy web site or a glossy front desk. There is so much more to a flying school than your first impression.

Good luck.

[farrenfour]

Curtis aviation are a very good bunch, Jim Drinnen, Jon Kelly and Mike Pepper are very relaxed , attentitive and bloody good. Craig Marshall is the CFI and hes' also spot on.. .Jim is an old tailwheel fox, and if you want to learn good skills and good sense whilst having mucho fun doing it then go there.

They currently have 4 tailwheel Citabrias, a warrior, a 235hp Dakota (warrior on steroids) for CPL training, a maule to keep you on your toes , eagle, and I think they now have a Tobago.

I did my tailwheel endorsement with them in '96, and I can pretty much honestly say young Mr Drinnen taught me almost everything I know

If you go there, tell them I sent ya

F4. ."Oops its never done that before "

[429 CJ]

Hannah V, you've got some fantastic "insider" information there on the pages in front of you from everyone that has taken the time to reply. Due to myself not wishing to sound like I'm advertising anyone's business, I wont rabbit-on about this company or that one etc, etc.

However I can let you in who I have flown with, and my own personal feelings of their own organisations.

BK. .*Whitworth Aviation. A small school owned by the man who bears the name, and staffed by a very professional team (Bill, Tim, and Greg). Instructors have wide experience in GA and charter work. Really good learning environment and atmosphere, no one I have ever spoken to has ever had a bad word for the school, or indeed Bill.

CN. .*Curtis Aviation. Farrenfour summed the whole thing up more succinctly than I could have. Definetely worth looking at due to strong emphasis on tailwheel training and the extra benefits that brings with it. Also a small company (like the other I mentioned) and the same (very personal) service that you would expect form a long established school.

Farren4, is Dom still there?

[joechen]

hey hannah,. .u could also try avondale college at cooranbong (0249771475), they're pretty small but the majority of their instructors are career instructors, that is they come from a teaching background and aren't nursing major airline dreams. however it's tough getting work there as an instructor because of that very fact but they do have competitive prices and unlike a lot of other schools do try hard to stay within their quoted costs. reg, their theory instructor is an absolute gun at what he does and has some of the country's highest theory pass rates.. .johnston aviation at port macquarie is also another one worth trying.

[TALUFTEN]

Anyone know anything about Canterbury Aero Club's International Aviation Academy of New Zealand? What sort of reputation does it have? Anything that comes to mind.. .Thanx

[Hannah V]

thanks everyone for your replies so far. they have been very helpful.

[RamAirTurbine]

Have a look at the planes at Bankstown - and consider whether you would rent a car for $180 /hr upwards for something which is externally poorly maintained, internally poorly maintained and lacking in features....Chances are you wont rent it.

It makes you wonder what the engine/mechanics of planes are like if they cant maintain the cheap things like the interior.

For what its worth the majority of planes at bankstown appear like this. Dirty cruddy and torn interiors - banged up dented and dirty exteriors. Old old aircraft.........

Seriously who in their right mind would rent something like this, which is supposed to keep them airborne and alive?

. .Whatever flying school you choose, have a look at their planes and see if they are well maintained....have a look (if you can) at where they are serviced.... see if the workshop is well maintained... see if you can if anyone takes some pride in their work.

A couple of places mentioned in the previous posts have been regarded as lacking in "maintainence". I wont mention which ones I heard.....

As for schools I can recommend....try looking further afield than Sydney. Invariably you will find the planes will be significantly cheaper and better maintained. And you wont spend as much time taxiing because there is less traffic.....

[logie_bear]

Along the lines of 429cj's post, I can give you my opinions of the schools I've flown at if it helps any:

Bankstown. .Sydney Aerobatic School - quality instruction and the Robin is good trainer, whether you're into aeros or not. Not as 'flashy' as some schools but very thorough and professional. Did a short course there that put my PPL training (at another school) to shame. A bit on the expensive side but you get what you pay for.

Camden. .Airborne Aviation - Good fleet with a couple of new C172's amongst others. Very helpful instructors and an overall friendly environment. Good rates as well for some nice aircraft.

Don't know how either of these schools measure up for more advanced licences and ratings cause I'm not there yet.

Best of luck wherever you choose, just have fun along the way.. .l_b

[OzExpat]

And when you're looking around, beware of any planes with a new paint job. Maybe not exactly like a wolf in sheep's clothing, but could simply be a dead sheep in new sheep's clothing... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Not always true of course, but it's been known to happen... <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Ah, RamAirTurbine, if only the interiors were cheap to maintain! Some of those little bits of plastic cost telephone numbers, if you can get them at all. (anyone got the bit for the Arrow, by where the MAP guage and gear lights are?! AAAARGH can't find one anywhere!)

Seriously though, it is important to keep the aircraft looking good, lots of TLC shows that the school takes pride in them, and they will probably have good quality in other areas too. A clean aeroplane shows a dedication to customer service, which many schools sadly lack, however good their instructors are... it doesn't help if the bookings are in turmoil, planes come back late and the aircraft run out of hours on Friday afternoons...

In defence of old aeroplanes, we have some on line in their thirties, and if they are well looked after they can go on for ever. In fact some of the "old ladies" are nicer to fly than the shiny new ones. Bear in mind that there are probably few original parts inside if they are kept up to the airworthiness limitations.

[Captn Seagull]

Hannah V,. .Might be worthwhile searching for a smaller Flying School/Charter Operator that will help you gain experience once you have completed CPL, CIR!

[Tinstaafl]

Aurora Aviation (formerly Crane Air) are at Bankstown.

Rod Crane's the owner. The place isn't flashy but they're more than just a flying school.

I was happy to work there before I movedoverseas.

[mboulton]

HANNAH V

Take a look at ETA at Bournemouth. They say they have some of the best instructors, and instructor ratio around. Good FNPT2 also