More 1989 stuff - *If it bores you, don't look!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
More 1989 stuff - *If it bores you, don't look!
FSU, I'd like a reply to this post from the previous subject:
Okay FSU, I've published the pay rates where Ansett could fly us up to 72 hours before incurring overtime rates, would you now reciprocate by publishing the post '89 pay rates, where Ansett had to pay o/t in excess of 55 hours, please.
This promises to be an interesting comparison.
Okay FSU, I've published the pay rates where Ansett could fly us up to 72 hours before incurring overtime rates, would you now reciprocate by publishing the post '89 pay rates, where Ansett had to pay o/t in excess of 55 hours, please.
This promises to be an interesting comparison.
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Beerwhatever, could you enlighten me as to how or what it is that makes you proud to have forced me into bankruptcy,divorce and out of my own country. I assume your proud of your achievements and the position that you've reached. I had the same desire and dreams but because of people like you that was never to be. You will go to your grave with the knowledge that you can never truly be proud making the choice you did
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: MJMJKG ]
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: MJMJKG ]
Evertonian
Kaptin.
I've spent the better part of 3 hours avoiding looking at this, but, geez, I got sucked in again.
Here is a quote from the AIRC web site where the award is clearly laid out;
17.4 Pilots who exceed 55 hours flight time per roster period will be paid an additional hourly rate calculated by dividing the annual salary by 660.
I shall try very hard to stay out of this in future...cheers!!
I've spent the better part of 3 hours avoiding looking at this, but, geez, I got sucked in again.
Here is a quote from the AIRC web site where the award is clearly laid out;
17.4 Pilots who exceed 55 hours flight time per roster period will be paid an additional hourly rate calculated by dividing the annual salary by 660.
I shall try very hard to stay out of this in future...cheers!!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Thanks Buster. On the previous (1989) thread I published the figures for a 10+ year B767 F/O pre-'89 as AUD80k gross (ie. before tax), and for a B767 Captain (with probably 25-30 years service) as AUD135k. These were tha salaries WE were paid to fly UP TO 72 hours - before overtime rates cut in.
Simply, I wish - for a comparison - to have the salaries of a post '89 Ansett B767 F/O and Captain (whose overtime started at 55 hours) to be published.
No tricks - just a straightforward request.
Simply, I wish - for a comparison - to have the salaries of a post '89 Ansett B767 F/O and Captain (whose overtime started at 55 hours) to be published.
No tricks - just a straightforward request.
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I know the odd AN B767 F/O. They used to earn about 140-150K OZ p.a. post ’89.
The proud Chansett Captain should take a bit more pride in composing his/her posts. The standards have obviously slipped a tad over the years.
hand
The proud Chansett Captain should take a bit more pride in composing his/her posts. The standards have obviously slipped a tad over the years.
hand
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From the award, a year 10 FO with Ansett would get base $112200PA. These guys did about 60 hours per month which is 52.5 hrs overtime per year(5X10.5). This give OT=11220/660X52.5=$8925.Say 10 Grand. Add about $4000 DTA. This adds to ~$126,000. About what B737 and A320 FOs got for 80-90 hrs per month. Someone else can do the above for B767 captns......
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Kapitan M, please remember that a lot of YOU guy's (1989 dispute pilots) whilst laying idle were very quick to get back into G.A by 'leaning' on their mates etc. A lot of G.A companies were screwed over by '89 pilots just wanting to fly and quite often for nothing. '89 pilots were seen flying Doves out of Essendon because of mates etc and it was a problem all over the country.
There was a '89 pilot who went back to Aus Air at Moorabbin (now defunct) who begged for work being an ex employee, rallied support for the '89 pilots cause, begged us in G.A not to take his job, then promptly went back and scabbed.
Deleted last comment...Nup wont have personal threats of any kind, the bin for you for the moment W
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]
There was a '89 pilot who went back to Aus Air at Moorabbin (now defunct) who begged for work being an ex employee, rallied support for the '89 pilots cause, begged us in G.A not to take his job, then promptly went back and scabbed.
Deleted last comment...Nup wont have personal threats of any kind, the bin for you for the moment W
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]
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Kaptin M,
Been away and will get back to you on that. Will need to go into the archives (buried somewhere) to give a comparison at that time. As for pay rates immediately prior to the recent shutdown I will have to confer with a person who should know as I have not worked for AN for some time. Will take a while and, as you say, should be interesting.
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
Been away and will get back to you on that. Will need to go into the archives (buried somewhere) to give a comparison at that time. As for pay rates immediately prior to the recent shutdown I will have to confer with a person who should know as I have not worked for AN for some time. Will take a while and, as you say, should be interesting.
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
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Your words Kaptin M > >>>>posted 13 November 2001 00:21
FSU, your calculations are correct, my before-tax salary was about $80,000 as a 10+ year F/O on the 767. Also correct that Captains on the 767 were grossing around $130K p.a. - a loooong way short of the post '89 salaries, weren't they??!! Remember that 767 Captains were the senior pilots - guys who had been with Ansett for 25, 30 years and more (generally), and with less than 8 or 10 years to "use by" date. Ansett's 767 Captains post '89 - on salaries of almost DOUBLE their predecessors - were those who signed up the earliest.
A significant CAUSE of Ansetts' demise!!>>>>>>
and you go on to say >>>>>>>
I've published the pay rates where Ansett could fly us up to 72 hours before incurring overtime rates, would you now reciprocate by publishing the post '89 pay rates, where Ansett had to pay o/t in excess of 55 hours, please.>>>>>>>
First let us be clear about this your 72 hours were “credited hours” and represented about 57 STICK hours on a flying block so we need to be consistent with terminology. It has already been established that the average achieved STICK hours per pilot was 35 hours prior to ‘89 and that is a generous figure. Must admit that I thought the Guaranteed min credited hours pay was for 65 hours. It was in the early days of the bid system. Anyhow we had Reserve blockholders being paid 74 hours pay for NO FLYING so the 65 hour bit is of no consequence. Since you are familiar with the B767 rates I will qoute on that.
FACT: The standard Capt 55 STICk hour rate on the B767 was $10027.17 per month. This equates to $182.31 per STICK hour. Based on 12 months that gives $120326 per annum and this was in effect the Capt Min Guaranteed pay.
FACT: Using your own quote for a B767 Capt of $130000 per annum that comes out at $333.33 based on the average overall 35 STICK hour achieved. Assuming that your blockholder did in fact fly 72 hours STICK that gives a figure of $150.46 per hour but in fact as is clear from the B767 blocks published by A Paterson the actual STICK time was 57 hours which works out at $190.05 per hour which is still in excess of the hourly pay after the dispute.
FACT: There are NO RESERVE BLOCKS because the cumbersome scheduling rules were removed and the 55 hours can be achieved in less days than before which leaves more days available to cover RDOs and extra flying. You DID NOT have to be available on a grey day (I think that was still so at shutdown) However there was the ability to earn extra pay for flying above 55 STICK hours. A B767 Captain achieving your 72 hour pay hours would gross $13126 per month or $157517 per annum. That is an increase of 21.16% on your $130000 quote. Certainly NOT double the pay that you suggest; but double the work.
FACT: Prior to ‘89 your Superannuation contribution came out of your after tax salary. After ‘89 the Super contribution was paid by the company at a rate of 10% of the 55 hour salary; that is $1002.72 went straight into super from the company and was not deducted from your pay. Grossed up this was equivalent to about $1920 per month. Even allowing for that we are still a long way from the fantasy double the salary so often quoted.
However it is an interesting comparison when you do the calculation taking into account the Super contribution as well. $10027.17 plus 1002.72 = $11029.89 or $132358 per annum. Just about ball park with your $130000 quote.
An even more interesting result is if you use the 72 hour figure plus Super. $13126 plus $1002.72 = $14128 or $169544 per annum. That is a 30.42% increase! What a coincidence.
Someone asked what the present rates were and what was the increase. I don’t know a precise figure but I am told that the B767 Capt rate was about $250 per STICK hour. Comparing that with the initial ‘89 rate of $182.31 it seems that the percentage increase over the intervening 12 years has been about 37%. An average of 3% a year.
Please understand that I am not trying on a game of oneupmanship. You wanted the figures and this is an honest attempt to reveal the true picture.
It has been a long day.
E&OE, typos and the like. Got to go now.
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
FSU, your calculations are correct, my before-tax salary was about $80,000 as a 10+ year F/O on the 767. Also correct that Captains on the 767 were grossing around $130K p.a. - a loooong way short of the post '89 salaries, weren't they??!! Remember that 767 Captains were the senior pilots - guys who had been with Ansett for 25, 30 years and more (generally), and with less than 8 or 10 years to "use by" date. Ansett's 767 Captains post '89 - on salaries of almost DOUBLE their predecessors - were those who signed up the earliest.
A significant CAUSE of Ansetts' demise!!>>>>>>
and you go on to say >>>>>>>
I've published the pay rates where Ansett could fly us up to 72 hours before incurring overtime rates, would you now reciprocate by publishing the post '89 pay rates, where Ansett had to pay o/t in excess of 55 hours, please.>>>>>>>
First let us be clear about this your 72 hours were “credited hours” and represented about 57 STICK hours on a flying block so we need to be consistent with terminology. It has already been established that the average achieved STICK hours per pilot was 35 hours prior to ‘89 and that is a generous figure. Must admit that I thought the Guaranteed min credited hours pay was for 65 hours. It was in the early days of the bid system. Anyhow we had Reserve blockholders being paid 74 hours pay for NO FLYING so the 65 hour bit is of no consequence. Since you are familiar with the B767 rates I will qoute on that.
FACT: The standard Capt 55 STICk hour rate on the B767 was $10027.17 per month. This equates to $182.31 per STICK hour. Based on 12 months that gives $120326 per annum and this was in effect the Capt Min Guaranteed pay.
FACT: Using your own quote for a B767 Capt of $130000 per annum that comes out at $333.33 based on the average overall 35 STICK hour achieved. Assuming that your blockholder did in fact fly 72 hours STICK that gives a figure of $150.46 per hour but in fact as is clear from the B767 blocks published by A Paterson the actual STICK time was 57 hours which works out at $190.05 per hour which is still in excess of the hourly pay after the dispute.
FACT: There are NO RESERVE BLOCKS because the cumbersome scheduling rules were removed and the 55 hours can be achieved in less days than before which leaves more days available to cover RDOs and extra flying. You DID NOT have to be available on a grey day (I think that was still so at shutdown) However there was the ability to earn extra pay for flying above 55 STICK hours. A B767 Captain achieving your 72 hour pay hours would gross $13126 per month or $157517 per annum. That is an increase of 21.16% on your $130000 quote. Certainly NOT double the pay that you suggest; but double the work.
FACT: Prior to ‘89 your Superannuation contribution came out of your after tax salary. After ‘89 the Super contribution was paid by the company at a rate of 10% of the 55 hour salary; that is $1002.72 went straight into super from the company and was not deducted from your pay. Grossed up this was equivalent to about $1920 per month. Even allowing for that we are still a long way from the fantasy double the salary so often quoted.
However it is an interesting comparison when you do the calculation taking into account the Super contribution as well. $10027.17 plus 1002.72 = $11029.89 or $132358 per annum. Just about ball park with your $130000 quote.
An even more interesting result is if you use the 72 hour figure plus Super. $13126 plus $1002.72 = $14128 or $169544 per annum. That is a 30.42% increase! What a coincidence.
Someone asked what the present rates were and what was the increase. I don’t know a precise figure but I am told that the B767 Capt rate was about $250 per STICK hour. Comparing that with the initial ‘89 rate of $182.31 it seems that the percentage increase over the intervening 12 years has been about 37%. An average of 3% a year.
Please understand that I am not trying on a game of oneupmanship. You wanted the figures and this is an honest attempt to reveal the true picture.
It has been a long day.
E&OE, typos and the like. Got to go now.
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Thank you for posting an HONEST REPLY, FSU.
The money being offered was beyond the control of the pilots, however, your posting admirably demonstrates that the ENORMOUS INCREASES dangled by Abeles, Murdoch, Hawk and Co., were the REAL reason for the "saviours" flocking to save the airlines.
In reality, the post '89 (minimum) salary of $120,326 as compared to the AFAP's 1989 salary of $80k is a 150% INCREASE.
Now, the FACT is Ansett employed pilots on a PER ANNUM (paid monthly...as you have indicated "..in effect the Min Guaranteed pay.") basis....NO pilots were EVER paid on ACTUAL hours - unless they EXCEEDED the MINIMUM!
The TOTAL number of Ansett pilots employed until August 1989 was 796......653 from Ansett, and 143 from East-West.
POST Dispute, this number was 800 (refer to EPIRB's post of November 14, on the Ansett 737 pilots).........almost exactly the SAME number, BUT at 50% MORE $$$'s.
In NO WAY, FSU, should either of us even attempt to justify the (unsustainable) salaries that were being dangled before us - that was the work of the companies - however, with your voluntary, candid input, it is evident that the salaries were an ENORMOUS INCREASE - even on the 29.47% ambit log by the AFAP!
As Brian McCarthy stated at one of our early meetings - "Having taken a democratic vote" (of which about 97% were in agreement) "to proceed - it is similar to swimming in a public pool.
EACH of us is personally responsible for his own actions, and as such none of us should need to worry about another person p!ss!ng in the pool, and spoiling it for ALL of us!!"
It hasn't been all roses, however I'm able to live with the conviction of MY decision.
The money being offered was beyond the control of the pilots, however, your posting admirably demonstrates that the ENORMOUS INCREASES dangled by Abeles, Murdoch, Hawk and Co., were the REAL reason for the "saviours" flocking to save the airlines.
In reality, the post '89 (minimum) salary of $120,326 as compared to the AFAP's 1989 salary of $80k is a 150% INCREASE.
Now, the FACT is Ansett employed pilots on a PER ANNUM (paid monthly...as you have indicated "..in effect the Min Guaranteed pay.") basis....NO pilots were EVER paid on ACTUAL hours - unless they EXCEEDED the MINIMUM!
The TOTAL number of Ansett pilots employed until August 1989 was 796......653 from Ansett, and 143 from East-West.
POST Dispute, this number was 800 (refer to EPIRB's post of November 14, on the Ansett 737 pilots).........almost exactly the SAME number, BUT at 50% MORE $$$'s.
In NO WAY, FSU, should either of us even attempt to justify the (unsustainable) salaries that were being dangled before us - that was the work of the companies - however, with your voluntary, candid input, it is evident that the salaries were an ENORMOUS INCREASE - even on the 29.47% ambit log by the AFAP!
As Brian McCarthy stated at one of our early meetings - "Having taken a democratic vote" (of which about 97% were in agreement) "to proceed - it is similar to swimming in a public pool.
EACH of us is personally responsible for his own actions, and as such none of us should need to worry about another person p!ss!ng in the pool, and spoiling it for ALL of us!!"
It hasn't been all roses, however I'm able to live with the conviction of MY decision.
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Kaptin M,
Somehow you have managed to compare your $80000 FO salary with the post dispute CAPT salary of $120326. The correct comparison between CAPT salaries is $130000 to a range of $120326 to $157517 (72 hours pay).
Regarding Minimum pay actually being paid, indeed it was, especially for BN based pilots because rosters often came with about 52 STICK hours. In accordance with well established tradition ML got the pick of the flying and BN the crumbs.
With regard to EPIRB's 800 pilot figure I think you will find that figure was the number immediately before the recent shutdown; twelve years after the dispute. A Paterson lists a number of 654 pilots post dispute I am reliably informed. And you still choose to ignore that productivity was much greater than before.
If the AFAP had not been so determined to proceed with their ill considered plan and negotiated productivity increases and radical but necessary changes to work rules a tragedy could have been avoided.
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
Somehow you have managed to compare your $80000 FO salary with the post dispute CAPT salary of $120326. The correct comparison between CAPT salaries is $130000 to a range of $120326 to $157517 (72 hours pay).
Regarding Minimum pay actually being paid, indeed it was, especially for BN based pilots because rosters often came with about 52 STICK hours. In accordance with well established tradition ML got the pick of the flying and BN the crumbs.
With regard to EPIRB's 800 pilot figure I think you will find that figure was the number immediately before the recent shutdown; twelve years after the dispute. A Paterson lists a number of 654 pilots post dispute I am reliably informed. And you still choose to ignore that productivity was much greater than before.
If the AFAP had not been so determined to proceed with their ill considered plan and negotiated productivity increases and radical but necessary changes to work rules a tragedy could have been avoided.
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
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At a recent Virgin Blue intererview with an ex-AN 737 F/O, it was learnt that the interviewee had earnt more than either of the two senior interviwers the previous year. And they are both management pilots. Sort of puts it into perspective I think.
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ALBERTROSS. It is more than likely the 737 FO did earn more than the Managment Captains conducting the Interview at Virgin,but Don't forget until recently Virgin was at the bottom of the pile (now Ansett has the honour)and Pilots were not ever going to leave AN or QF for Virgin,now for survival An pilots are,but it is by no means their prefered choice.
What I really wanted to contribute here is all this slaging off AN pilots is one sided finger pointing.It,s as If the whole demise of AN was because of the Piolts.What about Qantas,similar pay ,similar conditions,but no one's slaging off at them?
The only difference is that they have Managment that knew how to run an Airline,and Ansett didn't.
What I really wanted to contribute here is all this slaging off AN pilots is one sided finger pointing.It,s as If the whole demise of AN was because of the Piolts.What about Qantas,similar pay ,similar conditions,but no one's slaging off at them?
The only difference is that they have Managment that knew how to run an Airline,and Ansett didn't.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Sorry FSU you've lost me there - are you saying that 767 Captains were in fact working for LESS, post-dispute? You appear to have indicated that the pre-dispute salary of $130k was lowered to $120326, and maxed at $157517 (72 hours pay). Highly unlikely, given stories spread by YOUR contemporaries of 737 captains, earning $180k-$220k+, post '89.
Forget about the pay rates per hour - Ansett employed "x" number of pilots pre and post '89, to fly the same number of aircraft over the same routes - although there were withdrawls from some destinations as time went on, along with fleet changes (eg. the demise of the F27 and L188, and the leasing of the SQ 747's).
Obviously you CANNOT compare the number of pilots employed IMMEDIATELY post dispute with those employed UNTIL August '89 because of accrued leave (recreation, long service, medical, etc), licence and emergency revals, pilots on conversion courses, and so forth, of the original pilot group.
So it is only FAIR to compare the number of pilots Ansett employed up until September 2001 [800], after 12 years of operating, with the number employed until August 1989 [Ansett=653, AWA=139, ANSW=106. Total=898]
Hence with a REDUCTION of only a little more than 10% of the original group, but a SIZEABLE wage increase, the collective pilots' salary bill ballooned enormously. Again, it was the companies that determined the wage structuring - NOT the pilots.
Finally Flat Side Up, your statement,
leaves me wondering WHERE you were from August '89 through until early 1990. 
I'm sure there would have been very few Australians who would NOT have heard Brian McCarthy's, "All we want to do is NEGOTIATE." emanating from their radios and televisions almost daily!!
Thumbs up - the information I have received wrt QANTAS, indicates that almost ALL the scabs are stuck on the 737. The high cost of the dispute, to Australian Airlines, was conveniently absorbed by QANTAS when they merged with the once Government-owned domestic operator - something Ansett, East-West, and IPEC were not able to do.
Hence four out of four of the airlines involved in the 1989 Dispute have now disappeared!
Forget about the pay rates per hour - Ansett employed "x" number of pilots pre and post '89, to fly the same number of aircraft over the same routes - although there were withdrawls from some destinations as time went on, along with fleet changes (eg. the demise of the F27 and L188, and the leasing of the SQ 747's).
Obviously you CANNOT compare the number of pilots employed IMMEDIATELY post dispute with those employed UNTIL August '89 because of accrued leave (recreation, long service, medical, etc), licence and emergency revals, pilots on conversion courses, and so forth, of the original pilot group.
So it is only FAIR to compare the number of pilots Ansett employed up until September 2001 [800], after 12 years of operating, with the number employed until August 1989 [Ansett=653, AWA=139, ANSW=106. Total=898]
Hence with a REDUCTION of only a little more than 10% of the original group, but a SIZEABLE wage increase, the collective pilots' salary bill ballooned enormously. Again, it was the companies that determined the wage structuring - NOT the pilots.
Finally Flat Side Up, your statement,
If the AFAP had not been so determined to proceed with their ill considered plan and NEGOTIATED productivity increases and radical but necessary changes to work rules a tragedy could have been avoided.
I'm sure there would have been very few Australians who would NOT have heard Brian McCarthy's, "All we want to do is NEGOTIATE." emanating from their radios and televisions almost daily!!
Thumbs up - the information I have received wrt QANTAS, indicates that almost ALL the scabs are stuck on the 737. The high cost of the dispute, to Australian Airlines, was conveniently absorbed by QANTAS when they merged with the once Government-owned domestic operator - something Ansett, East-West, and IPEC were not able to do.
Hence four out of four of the airlines involved in the 1989 Dispute have now disappeared!