More 1989 stuff - *If it bores you, don't look!
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Kaptin M,
The FACTS don't suit you do they? Yes the 55 hour B767 Capt pay was $120326 with the ability to earn more for STICK hours above 55 hours and I indicated that would produce $157517 to compare with your $130000 which I presume was for the 72 hours you refer to. Still not the DOUBLE pay that you continue to claim.
You quoted a top B767 salary prior to 89. If you want a valid comparison then compare the Min Guaranteed pay prior to '89 with $120316.
You asked for the figures and you got the REAL numbers. But I guess they don't fit your purpose.
It is one thing to say negotiate and another to actually do it. Those words were meaningless once the resignation strategy was implemented. That is the reality that you seem unable to comprehend. The time to negotiate realistically was BEFORE that. There is plenty of reason to suspect that that did not happen because the resignation tactic had been predetermined. Many a slip of the lip by Committe members has revealed this as more than a supposition.
THe fact is that if you wanted an increase you had to be prepared to work for it. Bet many found that out when they accepted contracts elsewhere.
Away!
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
The FACTS don't suit you do they? Yes the 55 hour B767 Capt pay was $120326 with the ability to earn more for STICK hours above 55 hours and I indicated that would produce $157517 to compare with your $130000 which I presume was for the 72 hours you refer to. Still not the DOUBLE pay that you continue to claim.
You quoted a top B767 salary prior to 89. If you want a valid comparison then compare the Min Guaranteed pay prior to '89 with $120316.
You asked for the figures and you got the REAL numbers. But I guess they don't fit your purpose.
It is one thing to say negotiate and another to actually do it. Those words were meaningless once the resignation strategy was implemented. That is the reality that you seem unable to comprehend. The time to negotiate realistically was BEFORE that. There is plenty of reason to suspect that that did not happen because the resignation tactic had been predetermined. Many a slip of the lip by Committe members has revealed this as more than a supposition.
THe fact is that if you wanted an increase you had to be prepared to work for it. Bet many found that out when they accepted contracts elsewhere.
Away!
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Well FSU, now you're REALLY amazing us, by stating that the scabs in fact took a salary DROP to return. 
I guess the AFAP also arranged for the airlines to issue the writs for unspecified damages, so that they could implement the "predetermined resignation strategy"
Don't you feel more than a little uncomfortable with yourself, being 12 YEARS down the track, and STILL trying to blame OTHER PEOPLE (the Federation), for YOUR decision??
I think it's fairly evident where the TRUTH lies, and where the LIES try to cover the truth!
I guess the AFAP also arranged for the airlines to issue the writs for unspecified damages, so that they could implement the "predetermined resignation strategy"
Don't you feel more than a little uncomfortable with yourself, being 12 YEARS down the track, and STILL trying to blame OTHER PEOPLE (the Federation), for YOUR decision??
I think it's fairly evident where the TRUTH lies, and where the LIES try to cover the truth!
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Kaptin M,
When all else fails go for personal attack. I gave you the correct numbers at your request and you find them unpalatable.
You seem willing to misinterpret everything.
I am not blaming the AFAP for my own decision. I AM BLAMING the AFAP for the tragedy they inflicted on their members by their ill considered actions not the least of which was entrapment in the resignations.
Had a very revealing disclosure from a person close to the AFAP who indicated that they had anticipated the writs and relied on the "king hit" of TOTAL resignation to work.
Are you saying that the figures quoted are lies? If so, then I will not bother with any of your requests and will accept that you are so far into self deception that it is pointless to respond with the TRUTH.
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
When all else fails go for personal attack. I gave you the correct numbers at your request and you find them unpalatable.
You seem willing to misinterpret everything.
I am not blaming the AFAP for my own decision. I AM BLAMING the AFAP for the tragedy they inflicted on their members by their ill considered actions not the least of which was entrapment in the resignations.
Had a very revealing disclosure from a person close to the AFAP who indicated that they had anticipated the writs and relied on the "king hit" of TOTAL resignation to work.
Are you saying that the figures quoted are lies? If so, then I will not bother with any of your requests and will accept that you are so far into self deception that it is pointless to respond with the TRUTH.
[ 19 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
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Kap,I dont know where you are going with your posts;who cares about minimum guarantee etc,etc.
What happened 12 years ago,was we were shafted by rapacious business types with the help of a politician.
Some survived and some didn`t.What really happened,was we allowed ourselves to be put in this position.
The end result was the demeaning of aviation as a profession and we became what Ables said we were,just truck drivers.I respect truck drivers,but we were a bit more than that.
I only hope that any new outfit that starts up,will try and rebuild our profession to what it was in the past.
I dont want an argument over who did what,but what it needs to become again.
Some of us are about to finish our flying careers and some are just starting,so let us do something to resurrect what we all love:Aviation.
What happened 12 years ago,was we were shafted by rapacious business types with the help of a politician.
Some survived and some didn`t.What really happened,was we allowed ourselves to be put in this position.
The end result was the demeaning of aviation as a profession and we became what Ables said we were,just truck drivers.I respect truck drivers,but we were a bit more than that.
I only hope that any new outfit that starts up,will try and rebuild our profession to what it was in the past.
I dont want an argument over who did what,but what it needs to become again.
Some of us are about to finish our flying careers and some are just starting,so let us do something to resurrect what we all love:Aviation.
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KAPTIN M . I really thought you were going to show some dignity by a sensible 1989 post......
Thankfully you did not disappoint us all....By YOUR last post you lost me .
You had somebody patient enough to answer your questions and because FSU is light years ahead of you, you decide to insult him .why ?????????
You were asking for the information .???????
You know YOU are starting to do your 89 movement a dis service.
I think the moderators are amazingly tolerant letting you start,and then manipulate these threads to your own cause.
As Spuds says backward, foreward, backward ,foreward .,
WHY DONT YOU GIVE IT A BREAK.??? Lighten up.
Go to the pictures or learn to paint or do YOGA , learn to fish. It is far more satisfying .Why are you so preoccupied with Ansett.?
Correct me if Im wrong but you are ex Ansett
767 f/o so you know the answers to your questions anyway.,
So why torture yourself.??CHEERS 
Thankfully you did not disappoint us all....By YOUR last post you lost me .
You had somebody patient enough to answer your questions and because FSU is light years ahead of you, you decide to insult him .why ?????????
You were asking for the information .???????
You know YOU are starting to do your 89 movement a dis service.
I think the moderators are amazingly tolerant letting you start,and then manipulate these threads to your own cause.
As Spuds says backward, foreward, backward ,foreward .,
WHY DONT YOU GIVE IT A BREAK.??? Lighten up.
Go to the pictures or learn to paint or do YOGA , learn to fish. It is far more satisfying .Why are you so preoccupied with Ansett.?
Correct me if Im wrong but you are ex Ansett
767 f/o so you know the answers to your questions anyway.,
So why torture yourself.??
CHEERS
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Hmmmmm
From the above discussion.
On the evidence, win lose or draw, whether is was double or only a bit, the income WAS higher after than before.
On the balance of the evidence, my recollection of the times and the senior AFAP people that I knew personally, it is hard to present a motivation for the duplicitous behaviour alleged.
Union action is only effective when it is absolutely united and committed.
Everybody lost including the returnees.
Given a choice I know what I would have chosen to lose.
From the above discussion.
On the evidence, win lose or draw, whether is was double or only a bit, the income WAS higher after than before.
On the balance of the evidence, my recollection of the times and the senior AFAP people that I knew personally, it is hard to present a motivation for the duplicitous behaviour alleged.
Union action is only effective when it is absolutely united and committed.
Everybody lost including the returnees.
Given a choice I know what I would have chosen to lose.
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Dear All,
I'm a recent registration, but I have observed this forum for some years. As a psychologist, I see what I perceive/know as many flawed arguments, but I'm not insisting that psychologists have a mortgage on the logic in the world.
Perhaps more flawed than most are the arguments put forward by Kaptin M. Additionally, when cornered, he resorts to personal abuse and name calling, and one must question whether he is capable of rational discussion without resorting to this type of jaundiced argument.
He obviously feels agrieved by the events of 1989, and has every right to do so, but when confronted with logical argument, fails to recognize it as such. One would have to speculate on his ability/suitability to captain an aircraft with such a lack of ability to analyze the options put before him.
I was involved in the dispute of 1989, and the aftermath, and will produce figures that prove (if those who read will accept it as the truth) that pilots flying for Ansett are paid significantly less per hour now than they were 13 years ago, even though the bulk $$ they earned prior to Sept 14, were a great deal more. I do not have sufficient time now, but at a future date I will.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
I'm a recent registration, but I have observed this forum for some years. As a psychologist, I see what I perceive/know as many flawed arguments, but I'm not insisting that psychologists have a mortgage on the logic in the world.
Perhaps more flawed than most are the arguments put forward by Kaptin M. Additionally, when cornered, he resorts to personal abuse and name calling, and one must question whether he is capable of rational discussion without resorting to this type of jaundiced argument.
He obviously feels agrieved by the events of 1989, and has every right to do so, but when confronted with logical argument, fails to recognize it as such. One would have to speculate on his ability/suitability to captain an aircraft with such a lack of ability to analyze the options put before him.
I was involved in the dispute of 1989, and the aftermath, and will produce figures that prove (if those who read will accept it as the truth) that pilots flying for Ansett are paid significantly less per hour now than they were 13 years ago, even though the bulk $$ they earned prior to Sept 14, were a great deal more. I do not have sufficient time now, but at a future date I will.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
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Further to my previous post, FSU is as close to the truth as you get, and briefly, though Kaptin M has difficulty accepting this, there was NO provision in the AN contract for reserve coverage.
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It is to be expected that some will be mesmerised by the seemingly logical explanations of the likes of FSU.
Unfortunately for him, (and I assume the person is male for brevity - a gift), his figures are produced to serve his purpose, which is simply to deny KM's figures.
But - like advised to young Fred Basset in another thread - they are wrong. All his supporters leap in, including a so-called psychologist. Presumably the same psych. Abeles employed to brainwash the AN emloyees at venues such as Flemington racecourse in the couple of years after the dispute commenced. Psychs, when it comes to intelligence, are but one grade lower than gyrocopter pilots - usually six feet under. Say g'day to a psych, and he/she asks "is it daylight already?"
I have yet to meet one who has ever demonstrated any logic - but I digress.
FSU, to give him some credit, has a sharp mind, but like many sharp minds, it is totally ill directed towards arguments which suit his own inaccurate purpose. A bit like the silver bodgie. You see, old FSU likes to indicate he knew a huge amount about the inner workings of the AFAP leadership, yet denies being a member of a Branch committee (another thread), and he projects massive criticism about the AFAP leadership about the resignations, and that so called strategy. Even if it was - the reality is, confirmed by a Melbourne law faculty lecturer in a letter to The Age in 1991, was that the resignations were unquestionably legally necessary. That is a fact.
Old FSU, through his literal ability, projects continued insight into the core of the AFAP, and unless old FSU is McCarthy, Raby, Holt, O'Connell, or one or two others who were consulted, then he knows not much more, and probably a lot less, than the rest of us.
Except of course in the area of scab contracts. Now he knows, as do KM and others, including me, that the scab contracts DID produce monthly/annual increases for scabs in the order of an average of 47%.
The average A320 block in August 1989 was boosted by 34% on the scab contracts from the pre August pay rates, without flying oine more stick minute! And that's a fact.
It is also a fact, that the only way FSU's mates, Abeles, Hawke and Kelty, could get FSU and his scab mates back, was to provide contracts which were so lucrative that any display of loyalty to former colleagues would be of no importance at all. This had to be through massive pay hikes. He did, and they were.
Whether or not it was this rate or that rate per hour is not important now. What the effect was, that it showed at the end of the calculation, eyeballs of scabs with dollar signs bigger than Scrooge McDuck's.
That's the bottom line boys and girls, and old FSU is just one of the suckers who bought in, and now has to spend the rest of his life justifying it to all and sundry. He just happens to have more literary merit than most of his scab mates, especially the golden scabs in his former AN, and in his his new TN, now QF domestic.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Tool Time Two ]
Unfortunately for him, (and I assume the person is male for brevity - a gift), his figures are produced to serve his purpose, which is simply to deny KM's figures.
But - like advised to young Fred Basset in another thread - they are wrong. All his supporters leap in, including a so-called psychologist. Presumably the same psych. Abeles employed to brainwash the AN emloyees at venues such as Flemington racecourse in the couple of years after the dispute commenced. Psychs, when it comes to intelligence, are but one grade lower than gyrocopter pilots - usually six feet under. Say g'day to a psych, and he/she asks "is it daylight already?"
I have yet to meet one who has ever demonstrated any logic - but I digress.
FSU, to give him some credit, has a sharp mind, but like many sharp minds, it is totally ill directed towards arguments which suit his own inaccurate purpose. A bit like the silver bodgie. You see, old FSU likes to indicate he knew a huge amount about the inner workings of the AFAP leadership, yet denies being a member of a Branch committee (another thread), and he projects massive criticism about the AFAP leadership about the resignations, and that so called strategy. Even if it was - the reality is, confirmed by a Melbourne law faculty lecturer in a letter to The Age in 1991, was that the resignations were unquestionably legally necessary. That is a fact.
Old FSU, through his literal ability, projects continued insight into the core of the AFAP, and unless old FSU is McCarthy, Raby, Holt, O'Connell, or one or two others who were consulted, then he knows not much more, and probably a lot less, than the rest of us.
Except of course in the area of scab contracts. Now he knows, as do KM and others, including me, that the scab contracts DID produce monthly/annual increases for scabs in the order of an average of 47%.
The average A320 block in August 1989 was boosted by 34% on the scab contracts from the pre August pay rates, without flying oine more stick minute! And that's a fact.
It is also a fact, that the only way FSU's mates, Abeles, Hawke and Kelty, could get FSU and his scab mates back, was to provide contracts which were so lucrative that any display of loyalty to former colleagues would be of no importance at all. This had to be through massive pay hikes. He did, and they were.
Whether or not it was this rate or that rate per hour is not important now. What the effect was, that it showed at the end of the calculation, eyeballs of scabs with dollar signs bigger than Scrooge McDuck's.
That's the bottom line boys and girls, and old FSU is just one of the suckers who bought in, and now has to spend the rest of his life justifying it to all and sundry. He just happens to have more literary merit than most of his scab mates, especially the golden scabs in his former AN, and in his his new TN, now QF domestic.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Tool Time Two ]
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Kaptin_X, it is said that imitation is the highest form of flattery!
In fact I notice those who have declared FSU to be spouting the "facts" are our other well-known scabs..strobes_on, Lusimtingting and [b]mut[\b]....where is Dambuster?
I haven`t BOTHEREDto reply to FSU last post, as I believe he presented the profile of a scab/hero far better than I could EVER have hoped to, with his statements (in precis):
The scabs returned for LESS money than the salaries of their AFAP predecessors;
The Federation entered the Dispute with "The Resignation Tactic" already prepared (he KNOWS this is true, because someone from the AFAP - undoubtedly one of his contemporaries - told him so!), is SPITE of the FACT that the PRECEDENCE of serving individual writs for unsubstantiated damages occurred to US!;
Simply, FSU cannot tell the truth - and I can`t be bothered arguing with a liar!!
....one who is unable to (to this day) admit that man IS taken on his word, and IS responsible for his actions.
In fact I notice those who have declared FSU to be spouting the "facts" are our other well-known scabs..strobes_on, Lusimtingting and [b]mut[\b]....where is Dambuster?
I haven`t BOTHEREDto reply to FSU last post, as I believe he presented the profile of a scab/hero far better than I could EVER have hoped to, with his statements (in precis):
The scabs returned for LESS money than the salaries of their AFAP predecessors;
The Federation entered the Dispute with "The Resignation Tactic" already prepared (he KNOWS this is true, because someone from the AFAP - undoubtedly one of his contemporaries - told him so!), is SPITE of the FACT that the PRECEDENCE of serving individual writs for unsubstantiated damages occurred to US!;
Simply, FSU cannot tell the truth - and I can`t be bothered arguing with a liar!!
....one who is unable to (to this day) admit that man IS taken on his word, and IS responsible for his actions.