More 1989 stuff - *If it bores you, don't look!
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Having Kaptin X on board reminds me of the story of Normal Norman...
Many years ago a friend of mine did a tour to the Antarctic for 12 mths...they used to go down in the Nella Dan remember? Perhaps they still do.
Anyway, my friend and all the others were accompanied by a shrink,as was always the case,just in case the isolation, lack of sex, the cold etc caused any phsycological problems.
So, on the way down the boys are boosing on, smoking and playing cards and generally having a good time
and they gave the phsyc whose name was Norman
[honest!]the nickname "Normal Norman"...
Anyway,after 3 mths the boys were still having a great time...boosing on, playing cards, smoking and drinking and not suffering any problems.
And what happened to "Normal Norman"?...
They had to ship him home in a straight jacket!!!
True!
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Obadiah ]
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Obadiah ]
Many years ago a friend of mine did a tour to the Antarctic for 12 mths...they used to go down in the Nella Dan remember? Perhaps they still do.
Anyway, my friend and all the others were accompanied by a shrink,as was always the case,just in case the isolation, lack of sex, the cold etc caused any phsycological problems.
So, on the way down the boys are boosing on, smoking and playing cards and generally having a good time
and they gave the phsyc whose name was Norman
[honest!]the nickname "Normal Norman"...
Anyway,after 3 mths the boys were still having a great time...boosing on, playing cards, smoking and drinking and not suffering any problems.
And what happened to "Normal Norman"?...
They had to ship him home in a straight jacket!!!
True!
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Obadiah ]
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Obadiah ]
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Not a "scab" Kaptin,never have been !!. Just an observer who can see both sides of the argument and is able to make an unemotional,informed judgement without having to resort to juvenile name-calling.
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.....so is Katpin X Normal Norman or is he going to end up like Normal Norman?
by the way Kap M - i like you aussies that came over here after the 89 strike. I like the way you stick it up the scabs too but i believe on this occasion you were beaten on the argument by FSU. the way I see it the scabs got more money because they worked harder - the rates of pay are insignificant in this case. it's like comparing apples with oranges. tool time sort of explained it.
you are making things worse now by abusing him,stick to what you know best - debating the point,not the person. you have a lot of fans in this part of the world , when you are not angry!
by the way Kap M - i like you aussies that came over here after the 89 strike. I like the way you stick it up the scabs too but i believe on this occasion you were beaten on the argument by FSU. the way I see it the scabs got more money because they worked harder - the rates of pay are insignificant in this case. it's like comparing apples with oranges. tool time sort of explained it.
you are making things worse now by abusing him,stick to what you know best - debating the point,not the person. you have a lot of fans in this part of the world , when you are not angry!
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Kaptain M – Sorry you got it wrong again. I am an A-320 F/O with 8 years at Ansett. Now does that make me a scab? Don't let the facts stop you from name calling.
I have mates on both sides of this argument and I think most have gone on with their lives. I wish you well, but you need to get a life.
Just a little rumour to get your blood going....1st A-319 arrives in 2 weeks!
I have mates on both sides of this argument and I think most have gone on with their lives. I wish you well, but you need to get a life.
Just a little rumour to get your blood going....1st A-319 arrives in 2 weeks!
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Anyway, my friend and all the others were accompanied by a shrink,as was always the case,just in case the isolation, lack of sex, the cold etc caused any phsycological problems
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It's not difficult to understand fugitive's frame of mind - living and working in Kuwait!!!
Keep it up Spuds - they hate any opposition, or indifference, or anything it seems.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
Keep it up Spuds - they hate any opposition, or indifference, or anything it seems.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Kaptin_X, may I recommend you read Tool Time`s post, on the previous page. A company (Ansett) that found it NECESSARY to employ psychologists and psychiatrists to consult their newly and re-employed pilots, fundamentally admitted that there was a MORAL (not morale) PROBLEM that needed professional treatment. FSU attempts to explain away his actions by some very convoluted "logic", perhaps consoled/counselled by your good self.
Mut, aptly tagged! As Amos regularly cited, "lie with dogs, and you`ll get up with fleas."....perhaps you're a case in point?
Let me ask a straight, no tricks-attached question, and see if ANY of you are WILLING to provide an HONEST answer!
Q: If a pre-dispute pilot flew 55 hours in one calendar month...let`s say July, 1989, and that SAME PILOT "went back" to work, on the same type, and flew 55 hours in say, December 1989, what was percentage difference in the TOTAL MONTHLY GROSS salary package? (FSU has already informed us that our heroes were given superannuation instalments in addition to their salary)
And in WHOSE favour?
Easy question...let`s have a TRUTHFUL answer!
Forget about the hourly pay rate - that is a fiddle!
The scheduling department NOT the pilots, were, and are, responsible for the number of hours we fly. Similarly, the employees of any large organisation can be made to look unproductive, by taking the number of hours worked over a 1 or 2 or 3 month period, and dividing those hours by TOTAL staff employed, rather than ONLY those at work.
Naturally in the first 12 months there are going to be minimal numbers on ANY sort of leave.
Yes, the old contract needed some revisions - and that was the idea behind the biennial negotiations. They gave BOTH sides an opportunity to remove, revise, or tidy up areas in need, without the interference of third parties (the overseas and Australian scabs).
Thanks for the thought, Fugitive...that`s going to happen to them regardless of my input here on PPRuNe!!
In the "real world" well......that`s of THEIR own doing
Sui Generis!
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
Mut, aptly tagged! As Amos regularly cited, "lie with dogs, and you`ll get up with fleas."....perhaps you're a case in point?
Let me ask a straight, no tricks-attached question, and see if ANY of you are WILLING to provide an HONEST answer!
Q: If a pre-dispute pilot flew 55 hours in one calendar month...let`s say July, 1989, and that SAME PILOT "went back" to work, on the same type, and flew 55 hours in say, December 1989, what was percentage difference in the TOTAL MONTHLY GROSS salary package? (FSU has already informed us that our heroes were given superannuation instalments in addition to their salary)
And in WHOSE favour?
Easy question...let`s have a TRUTHFUL answer!
Forget about the hourly pay rate - that is a fiddle!
The scheduling department NOT the pilots, were, and are, responsible for the number of hours we fly. Similarly, the employees of any large organisation can be made to look unproductive, by taking the number of hours worked over a 1 or 2 or 3 month period, and dividing those hours by TOTAL staff employed, rather than ONLY those at work.
Naturally in the first 12 months there are going to be minimal numbers on ANY sort of leave.
Yes, the old contract needed some revisions - and that was the idea behind the biennial negotiations. They gave BOTH sides an opportunity to remove, revise, or tidy up areas in need, without the interference of third parties (the overseas and Australian scabs).
Thanks for the thought, Fugitive...that`s going to happen to them regardless of my input here on PPRuNe!!
In the "real world" well......that`s of THEIR own doing
Sui Generis!
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
Evertonian
Point of order Kaptin X.
There is provision in the "old" (post 89) AN award for reservists AND airport reservists, but it was never utilised...all of this will be a dead argument soon, when you see whats coming!
There is provision in the "old" (post 89) AN award for reservists AND airport reservists, but it was never utilised...all of this will be a dead argument soon, when you see whats coming!
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KM,
From a previous post you may be able to work out the answer if you know what the B767 Capt 55 hour pay was in July '89. According to it the pay in December '89 was as below.
FACT: The standard Capt 55 STICk hour rate on the B767 was $10027.17 per month. This equates to $182.31 per STICK hour. Based on 12 months that gives $120326 per annum and this was in effect the Capt Min Guaranteed pay.
The percentage difference would be of interest as you say.
From a previous post you may be able to work out the answer if you know what the B767 Capt 55 hour pay was in July '89. According to it the pay in December '89 was as below.
FACT: The standard Capt 55 STICk hour rate on the B767 was $10027.17 per month. This equates to $182.31 per STICK hour. Based on 12 months that gives $120326 per annum and this was in effect the Capt Min Guaranteed pay.
The percentage difference would be of interest as you say.
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Kaptin M you are one sad person. My 5 year old is more mature than you. I may one day fly with you (I hope not). I can imagine the cockpit conversation....blah,blah,blah,scab,blah,blah,blah,scab,blah ,blah,blah,scab..... I can't understand why no F/O's want to have drinks or fly with me....blah,blah,blah,1989,blah,blah,scab. Excuse me Kaptin M would you like the gear down now! Oh $hit yes..blah,blah,blah,scab.
But for the bright spot in all of this - it looks like Fox/Lew will happen, I'll be flying with crew that I will have respect for(I'm not referring to 1989(I'm neutral) but to personality and professionalism). The money will be less but I'll be in Oz and still enjoying life with my family....Life is good !
But for the bright spot in all of this - it looks like Fox/Lew will happen, I'll be flying with crew that I will have respect for(I'm not referring to 1989(I'm neutral) but to personality and professionalism). The money will be less but I'll be in Oz and still enjoying life with my family....Life is good
!
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Ummmmm.....At the risk of upsetting either side of this debate, can either side produce factual evidence in writing for all to see, or are we take as written that which is written here 
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Dearest Mut your boastful glee about your flying future is in poor taste with regards to your fellow AN pilots not fortunate enough to be blessed with a A320 endorsement.
Their future mostly is unknown and a little compassion to their situation might have been more considerate.
That is all non hero pilots of course.. the heroes made their bed and are welcome to lie in it.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Back Seat Driver ]
with regards to your fellow AN pilots not fortunate enough to be blessed with a A320 endorsement.Their future mostly is unknown and a little compassion to their situation might have been more considerate.
That is all non hero pilots of course.. the heroes made their bed and are welcome to lie in it.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Back Seat Driver ]
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Well, I would have thought that Kapt M could have answered his own question. He surely does know what the July B767 Capt 55 hour pay would be and he has already been supplied with the December B767 Capt 55 hour salary so why ask the question?
Come on Kap publish the answer or is it not to your liking. I suppose resort to calling a person a liar is your only response. So go on denying the truth if you feel more comfortable.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
Come on Kap publish the answer or is it not to your liking. I suppose resort to calling a person a liar is your only response. So go on denying the truth if you feel more comfortable.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
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BSD – I meant no harm to my fellow Ansett employees. The A-320 drivers are not even guaranteed a job with the new company. Every one will have to reapply, and if you have not preformed well in the past (i.e. poor sim records), you will not be given a slot. The plans by Fox/Lew are for 60+ aircraft. This would give all the pilots at Ansett a chance for a job in the next 2 years. Some may have to wait for awhile, but they should receive redundancy payouts that would help them until they are reemployed. My post was just to let Kaptin M know no matter how hard he wishes Ansett and some of it’s employees will still be around. It is funny how he and his kind want to see lower wages and conditions for all Australian pilots yet he brags about how much he earns.
Just for the record since mid 1993 I have flown 6948 hours over 99 months including training and holidays. This averages out to 70 stick hours every month or 842 stick hours every year. Please Kaptin tell us your truthful stick (not pay hours) while you were at Ansett.
Kaptin M your hate should also be pointed to a few other groups. Qantas flew domestically during the dispute…lets hope they go out of business. The RAAF flew also…lets hope they all get shot down. Many GA companies flew charters…lets hope they all went broke. You can’t handle that Australian Aviation has moved on with out you. From your anger at Ansett I bet that you reapplied and they didn’t take you back (good choice). Now you are stuck in some Asian hole where the locals don’t like or want you (I can understand that with your wonderful personality), the F/O’s don’t respect or want to fly with you (no surprise), your wife (if you had one) left you because she got sick of your constant whining about 1989/scabs/Ansett (probably took up with a scab), longing to live back in the greatest country on earth. Ansett and Qantas will live on. Virgin will fight for its life in the next 18 months and it may survive. As for you every day Ansett operates is one day closer to you losing your medical.
Kaptin M as to your quote “Mut, aptly tagged! As Amos regularly cited, "lie with dogs, and you’ll get up with fleas."....perhaps you're a case in point?”” You can’t blame someone out of GA as being a scab 3 years after the Federation said it was all right to work for Ansett. If I follow your case in point I would hate to think what your fellow workers would have on them….”lie with w@nkers, and you will get up with #$$%$## on you!”
I must say sorry to everyone that I have lowered myself to Kaptin M’s level, but I am sick of him wishing the worst for all Ansett workers. I don’t expect a truthful answer from him in relationship to the hours flown.
To all other 89ers I wish you the best of luck.
Probably off to the sin bin for me! (I need to play more golf now anyway)
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: mut ]
Just for the record since mid 1993 I have flown 6948 hours over 99 months including training and holidays. This averages out to 70 stick hours every month or 842 stick hours every year. Please Kaptin tell us your truthful stick (not pay hours) while you were at Ansett.
Kaptin M your hate should also be pointed to a few other groups. Qantas flew domestically during the dispute…lets hope they go out of business. The RAAF flew also…lets hope they all get shot down. Many GA companies flew charters…lets hope they all went broke. You can’t handle that Australian Aviation has moved on with out you. From your anger at Ansett I bet that you reapplied and they didn’t take you back (good choice). Now you are stuck in some Asian hole where the locals don’t like or want you (I can understand that with your wonderful personality), the F/O’s don’t respect or want to fly with you (no surprise), your wife (if you had one) left you because she got sick of your constant whining about 1989/scabs/Ansett (probably took up with a scab), longing to live back in the greatest country on earth. Ansett and Qantas will live on. Virgin will fight for its life in the next 18 months and it may survive. As for you every day Ansett operates is one day closer to you losing your medical.
Kaptin M as to your quote “Mut, aptly tagged! As Amos regularly cited, "lie with dogs, and you’ll get up with fleas."....perhaps you're a case in point?”” You can’t blame someone out of GA as being a scab 3 years after the Federation said it was all right to work for Ansett. If I follow your case in point I would hate to think what your fellow workers would have on them….”lie with w@nkers, and you will get up with #$$%$## on you!”
I must say sorry to everyone that I have lowered myself to Kaptin M’s level, but I am sick of him wishing the worst for all Ansett workers. I don’t expect a truthful answer from him in relationship to the hours flown.
To all other 89ers I wish you the best of luck.
Probably off to the sin bin for me! (I need to play more golf now anyway)
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: mut ]
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Interesting post that from Mut!...
Full of anger and emotion!
Still, he's entitled to his opinion,and shouldn't expect to be binned for that.
After all,airline flying is the first division and if you can't take the heat here you should go elswhere!
Mut has to understand, however, that Kaptin M,and any of us for that matter, are also entitled to our opinions!
You see, the problem most 89ers have is not so much that the likes of Mut are flying with scabs( I gather he joined well after 89 and had no choice in that, and is therefore entitled to his career) but that they seem to embrace the philosophy of the scabs!
Personally I find that quite amazing!
After all, what sort of person could embrace that philosophy?
So , you see Mut, this is where the expressions "tarred with the same brush" and " If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas" come from.
As you "appear" to wish the 89ers well so do we " wish you well ".
But...I fear your bonafides are in question!
Full of anger and emotion!
Still, he's entitled to his opinion,and shouldn't expect to be binned for that.
After all,airline flying is the first division and if you can't take the heat here you should go elswhere!
Mut has to understand, however, that Kaptin M,and any of us for that matter, are also entitled to our opinions!
You see, the problem most 89ers have is not so much that the likes of Mut are flying with scabs( I gather he joined well after 89 and had no choice in that, and is therefore entitled to his career) but that they seem to embrace the philosophy of the scabs!
Personally I find that quite amazing!
After all, what sort of person could embrace that philosophy?
So , you see Mut, this is where the expressions "tarred with the same brush" and " If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas" come from.
As you "appear" to wish the 89ers well so do we " wish you well ".
But...I fear your bonafides are in question!
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BSD - I don’t believe you will be, or should be, sin binned.
Nevertheless, it is wrong of you to try to belittle the pain of any 89er, son.
I happen to agree with KM, in that FSU is very lose with the truth. It suits his purpose.
Also, there were credited hours involved in the pay scales for scabs.
Ask yourself, why were there so many credited hours in the pre August ’89 Contract?
The answer is simple. It was designed to ensure pilots would be used efficiently. But the fact that they were not, is not the fault of the pilots or the AFAP. I have covered this on a previous thread some time ago.
There is a conclusion, which can be drawn from your post, that you acknowledge the fact that you did work with scabs, and considered them to so be.
And how about the foreign scabs? Remember, you, and all the other scabs, were happy enough to see them come to Australia to ensure we Australians could not work at home again, until VB anyway.
And somehow you justify your joining date. Not a fact I accept, for there are plenty of young 89er’s denied re-employment, who were more entitled in principle than you. They applied, and were processed, but the APA factor was applied. In some cases, not even the courtesy of a follow up saying they were not acceptable. Most likely because of the fear of a discrimination case.
I am afraid your understanding of Amos’s statement about fleas, seems to have been misunderstood. He meant you.
As for KM wishing the worst on AN workers, I don't think he did anything of the sort.
But remember son, that Abeles did hire psychologists to brainwash all the workers into believing the scabs saved the airline, and that was a specific brief he gave them.
Whether AN gets up remains to be seen. But I’ll bet the pilots will be stabbing each other in the back, in the rush to get employment. At the head of the line, will be the golden scabs, who imagine no operation can do without them.
Nevertheless, it is wrong of you to try to belittle the pain of any 89er, son.
I happen to agree with KM, in that FSU is very lose with the truth. It suits his purpose.
Also, there were credited hours involved in the pay scales for scabs.
Ask yourself, why were there so many credited hours in the pre August ’89 Contract?
The answer is simple. It was designed to ensure pilots would be used efficiently. But the fact that they were not, is not the fault of the pilots or the AFAP. I have covered this on a previous thread some time ago.
There is a conclusion, which can be drawn from your post, that you acknowledge the fact that you did work with scabs, and considered them to so be.
And how about the foreign scabs? Remember, you, and all the other scabs, were happy enough to see them come to Australia to ensure we Australians could not work at home again, until VB anyway.
And somehow you justify your joining date. Not a fact I accept, for there are plenty of young 89er’s denied re-employment, who were more entitled in principle than you. They applied, and were processed, but the APA factor was applied. In some cases, not even the courtesy of a follow up saying they were not acceptable. Most likely because of the fear of a discrimination case.
I am afraid your understanding of Amos’s statement about fleas, seems to have been misunderstood. He meant you.
As for KM wishing the worst on AN workers, I don't think he did anything of the sort.
But remember son, that Abeles did hire psychologists to brainwash all the workers into believing the scabs saved the airline, and that was a specific brief he gave them.
Whether AN gets up remains to be seen. But I’ll bet the pilots will be stabbing each other in the back, in the rush to get employment. At the head of the line, will be the golden scabs, who imagine no operation can do without them.
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Tool Time Two
Don’t call me son – only my father calls me that, I have respect for him.
Let see if I get this right – in 1993 I shouldn’t have applied to Ansett because some 89ers were out of work, I shouldn’t have applied to Qantas (Australian) because of same reason and QF were scabbing (flying domestically)during the dispute – so I’m a scab?
I should of just stayed in GA waiting for everyone who went OS to come back….I’d still be in GA. There were dispute pilots who took the better jobs in GA and the Regionals, while I’d worked hard to gain my experience. In fact I should have given my GA job to some poor dispute pilot because he deserved it more than me! How dare my employer keep me working, while someone much more deserving and needy than me was not flying. If his wife/girl friend left him…take mine!
If you sense a bit of animosity towards the dispute pilots - your right. They showed no support for GA pilots and were quite happy to take our jobs….so who is the scab, who had no principles, who were the selfish ones? Find a mirror and take a good look, because you will see him looking straight back at you! And you have the nerve to call me a scab!
The one’s that are lose with the truth are your lot!
So now you know why I don’t mind flying with the so-called scabs because your lot have affected me more than they have. To your surprise you might find that your lot are despised by a large number of people who were in GA at that time.
The more I listen to your unrealistic, illogical and self serving arguments, the less respect and support I have for you. Get a life!
Obadiah
Now you know where I’m coming from. So don’t expect me to feel sorry for you. I feel your lot have wronged me as much as you felt that you’ve been wronged. But it didn’t bother you’re principles (self serving?). Have you ever thought about the people that you displaced in GA and OS? Probably not! Was it all right for you to take their job, but not for them to return the favour? People in glasshouses shouldn’t throw rocks!
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: mut ]
Don’t call me son – only my father calls me that, I have respect for him.
Let see if I get this right – in 1993 I shouldn’t have applied to Ansett because some 89ers were out of work, I shouldn’t have applied to Qantas (Australian) because of same reason and QF were scabbing (flying domestically)during the dispute – so I’m a scab?
I should of just stayed in GA waiting for everyone who went OS to come back….I’d still be in GA. There were dispute pilots who took the better jobs in GA and the Regionals, while I’d worked hard to gain my experience. In fact I should have given my GA job to some poor dispute pilot because he deserved it more than me! How dare my employer keep me working, while someone much more deserving and needy than me was not flying. If his wife/girl friend left him…take mine!
If you sense a bit of animosity towards the dispute pilots - your right. They showed no support for GA pilots and were quite happy to take our jobs….so who is the scab, who had no principles, who were the selfish ones? Find a mirror and take a good look, because you will see him looking straight back at you! And you have the nerve to call me a scab!
The one’s that are lose with the truth are your lot!
So now you know why I don’t mind flying with the so-called scabs because your lot have affected me more than they have. To your surprise you might find that your lot are despised by a large number of people who were in GA at that time.
The more I listen to your unrealistic, illogical and self serving arguments, the less respect and support I have for you. Get a life!
Obadiah
Now you know where I’m coming from. So don’t expect me to feel sorry for you. I feel your lot have wronged me as much as you felt that you’ve been wronged. But it didn’t bother you’re principles (self serving?). Have you ever thought about the people that you displaced in GA and OS? Probably not! Was it all right for you to take their job, but not for them to return the favour? People in glasshouses shouldn’t throw rocks!
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: mut ]