AN Management
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AN Management
I am curious about the references made on this forum to Ansett management, presumably from Ansett pilots.
I am interested to know if pilots are referring to the management level of messers Toomey and Farmer et al or a lower level such as flight operations. The dislike towards the former is understandable, as many years of senior management neglect have resulted in the obvious.
But if pilots are referring to the latter, then I am puzzled. I am no expert at the commercial aviation game but isnt the operations management level charged with the overseeing of the carriers air operators certificate, the employment of pilots, training of pilots and the checking of standards etc. With this in mind, exactly what blame should be directed towards your flight operations people. They surely did not send AN down the tubes, and the safety record at Ansett seems to speak volumes about these people.
I am interested to know if pilots are referring to the management level of messers Toomey and Farmer et al or a lower level such as flight operations. The dislike towards the former is understandable, as many years of senior management neglect have resulted in the obvious.
But if pilots are referring to the latter, then I am puzzled. I am no expert at the commercial aviation game but isnt the operations management level charged with the overseeing of the carriers air operators certificate, the employment of pilots, training of pilots and the checking of standards etc. With this in mind, exactly what blame should be directed towards your flight operations people. They surely did not send AN down the tubes, and the safety record at Ansett seems to speak volumes about these people.
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No one is blaming FLTOPS for the demise of AN. They are an effective department.
The troops are simply making the point that if the lower ranks are cleaned out, equal attention should be paid to the higher echelons of Operations.
The troops are simply making the point that if the lower ranks are cleaned out, equal attention should be paid to the higher echelons of Operations.
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Now, Lets not beat around the bush, there are some real bloody dills in ML with absolutely NO PEOPLE SKILLS AT ALL, LET ME JUST REPEAT THAT SO THERE CAN BE NO MISTAKE, NO PEOPLE SKILLS AT ALL, IS EVERYONE CLEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They have been protected by their mates yet again!!
They have been protected by their mates yet again!!
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AN Captain
Good to see you again, I haven't seen a twodigit member number for some time <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Don't go too far away
Good to see you again, I haven't seen a twodigit member number for some time <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Don't go too far away
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Thanks for your kind thoughts !
Now what can you do about getting me a job ?? !! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I missed out at the new Ansett <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Now what can you do about getting me a job ?? !! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I missed out at the new Ansett <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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Well, there's always the second round AN Capt. Good luck.
Unfortunately many good people have missed out because of the smaller airline and i guess you are not A320 rated which could have helped. Seems they won't have enough A320 pilots anyway so let's hope you are successful in the second round.
Was a list published or did they just notify everyone separately. I have many friends in AN on the ground and in flight crew so would like to learn of their situation. If you have a list it would be appreciated...by email.
Unfortunately many good people have missed out because of the smaller airline and i guess you are not A320 rated which could have helped. Seems they won't have enough A320 pilots anyway so let's hope you are successful in the second round.
Was a list published or did they just notify everyone separately. I have many friends in AN on the ground and in flight crew so would like to learn of their situation. If you have a list it would be appreciated...by email.
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Tesna read this post,Lindsay admitted Prune had the odd snippet of useful info.
Tesna/KPMG quotes 75KUS per retooling of non-A320 pilots.40 times 150k more than a million dollars.
Most check captains and all APA committee members got their jobs back.
Kaptain M,career advice please.
[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: Viognier ]</p>
Tesna/KPMG quotes 75KUS per retooling of non-A320 pilots.40 times 150k more than a million dollars.
Most check captains and all APA committee members got their jobs back.
Kaptain M,career advice please.
[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: Viognier ]</p>
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Doc Hibbert - the overwhelming disappointment from the majority of AN pilots has been the with Flt Ops management.
From a Chief Pilot that has dished out abuse to young First Officers that have rang for advice on whether they are able to take the VR to do some contract work - and told blatantly "NO" in alot of cases (some were told they must resign and lose entitlements) in order to do so.
When the company was taken to court in most cases the day before the court hearing the VR was granted - Ansett rolled over at the last minute whilst the employees had to spend $$ just to get it that far in court - a great way to treat staff.
This is the same CP that runs around the Flt Ops dept angry,grumpy and abusive to the extent that other Managers will not confront him for fear of abuse.
His offsider is apparently far more approachable.
This was the same CP that procrastinated when asked to release 737 crews for a NZ contract (the offshore company was unsure whether these pilots had to resign and forfeit their benefits or be released to do a short term contract) - no reply was forthcoming to the extent that some 12 positions went offshore to other willing participants!
Is this any way to treat grown men/women with families to feed and clothe whilst not being paid a cent?
We now digress to people in Flt Ops in an industrial roll with "NO PEOPLE SKILLS" according to Ansett Captain.
This has to be the understatement of the century.
One former Flight Ops Manager from another state and transferred had not only absolutely no people skills but zero respect from any pilot that I spoke to - Capts and F/O's.
Said individual would treat 30 year airline veterans with vast experience as silly little school boys over trivial matters and wondered why nobody would give him the time of day!
When asked to present an answer to a question pilots were treated as guilty until proven innocent!
This is a great way to endear trust and respect.
Some pilots when asked to attend "tea and bikkies" would even bring in their lawyers - such was the atmosphere of trust endeared to these individuals.
A very sad state indeed.
He may have faired better in a management roll as "Fashion Police" - pilots were forever being told by this person to straighten your tie,wear your hat straight or to polish one's shoes.
To quote one senior Capt "the headmaster couldn't find his arse with both hands!"
A bit like the head man surrounding himself with ineptitude to shield you from the harsh realities.
As one level headed contributor to this forum said something like replace these back-stabbing,desk thumping meglomaniacs with someone with an ounce of interpersonal skills,basic leadership qualities and someone that can tell the truth and you may have a half reasonable company.
Will this happen????????.............you be the judge!
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Dambuster ]</p>
From a Chief Pilot that has dished out abuse to young First Officers that have rang for advice on whether they are able to take the VR to do some contract work - and told blatantly "NO" in alot of cases (some were told they must resign and lose entitlements) in order to do so.
When the company was taken to court in most cases the day before the court hearing the VR was granted - Ansett rolled over at the last minute whilst the employees had to spend $$ just to get it that far in court - a great way to treat staff.
This is the same CP that runs around the Flt Ops dept angry,grumpy and abusive to the extent that other Managers will not confront him for fear of abuse.
His offsider is apparently far more approachable.
This was the same CP that procrastinated when asked to release 737 crews for a NZ contract (the offshore company was unsure whether these pilots had to resign and forfeit their benefits or be released to do a short term contract) - no reply was forthcoming to the extent that some 12 positions went offshore to other willing participants!
Is this any way to treat grown men/women with families to feed and clothe whilst not being paid a cent?
We now digress to people in Flt Ops in an industrial roll with "NO PEOPLE SKILLS" according to Ansett Captain.
This has to be the understatement of the century.
One former Flight Ops Manager from another state and transferred had not only absolutely no people skills but zero respect from any pilot that I spoke to - Capts and F/O's.
Said individual would treat 30 year airline veterans with vast experience as silly little school boys over trivial matters and wondered why nobody would give him the time of day!
When asked to present an answer to a question pilots were treated as guilty until proven innocent!
This is a great way to endear trust and respect.
Some pilots when asked to attend "tea and bikkies" would even bring in their lawyers - such was the atmosphere of trust endeared to these individuals.
A very sad state indeed.
He may have faired better in a management roll as "Fashion Police" - pilots were forever being told by this person to straighten your tie,wear your hat straight or to polish one's shoes.
To quote one senior Capt "the headmaster couldn't find his arse with both hands!"
A bit like the head man surrounding himself with ineptitude to shield you from the harsh realities.
As one level headed contributor to this forum said something like replace these back-stabbing,desk thumping meglomaniacs with someone with an ounce of interpersonal skills,basic leadership qualities and someone that can tell the truth and you may have a half reasonable company.
Will this happen????????.............you be the judge!
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Dambuster ]</p>
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Wasn't there some talk of a vote of no confidence in a higher level manager/ director/ whatever even before the airline folded. There was a rumour that this was deflected because the said manager alleged that since his name was on the AOC it would bring down the airline.
You can get a look at the AOC on the CASA website. Can't see his name anywhere on it unless it's in a microdot.
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
You can get a look at the AOC on the CASA website. Can't see his name anywhere on it unless it's in a microdot.
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
Spot on Dambuster. A great place to work!.
The pilots representation have negotiated a 30% pay cut (an FO now earns less than an FA), participated in a personality based reselection of pilots, wasted over a million dollars on an ill fated buyout scheme, while in the process ensuring that pilots association reps are retrained on the A320 to the detriment of type rated pilots. And these guys were on the pilots side!
While no one imagined that AN (mis)management was ever on the side of the pilots, the levels to which they have stooped during reselection have set a new benchmark. Hiding a witchhunt behind an immature system of tech crew checking (while claiming transparence) only further demonstrates their cowardice. Hardly tactics to engender the respect of the troops. What must have gone on behind closed doors is frightening.
Anyone who remains at Ansett by choice deserves what they get. Cheers
The pilots representation have negotiated a 30% pay cut (an FO now earns less than an FA), participated in a personality based reselection of pilots, wasted over a million dollars on an ill fated buyout scheme, while in the process ensuring that pilots association reps are retrained on the A320 to the detriment of type rated pilots. And these guys were on the pilots side!
While no one imagined that AN (mis)management was ever on the side of the pilots, the levels to which they have stooped during reselection have set a new benchmark. Hiding a witchhunt behind an immature system of tech crew checking (while claiming transparence) only further demonstrates their cowardice. Hardly tactics to engender the respect of the troops. What must have gone on behind closed doors is frightening.
Anyone who remains at Ansett by choice deserves what they get. Cheers
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From what I can see there is a groundswell of no confidence in the current Flt Ops.It will be interesting to see if the new line up will resemble the existing one when Senior positions are annonced shortly.
I've already heard of a growing group of pilots who are going to approach Fox about various issues in Flt Ops.I also hear that some of the Brizzy Bus drivers will be saying their "Farewells" if told to move.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I've already heard of a growing group of pilots who are going to approach Fox about various issues in Flt Ops.I also hear that some of the Brizzy Bus drivers will be saying their "Farewells" if told to move.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
As FLEW have not yet officially been given the reins, it is understandable that they (like the administrators, and Air New Zealand) have pretty much left intact a Flight Ops Department that has seen little change for a looong time. Only pilots (and other staff) who have been employees for some time REALLY know the capabilities, limitations, and suitability of certain individuals in specific jobs.
Unfortunately the previous trucking magnate felt it was preferable to have "Yes men", or men who didn't express opposition to his edicts, rather than those with firm leadership capabilities and decisive in their actions, with a few notable exceptions in the Flight Ops Department (none of whom returned, btw).
Thus, most of the present incumbents were put into their positions of authority soon after acceding to Abeles demands in 1989-90, and have remained there ever since. If you recall, at that time Abeles had to rebuild Ansett as quickly as possible, and for him it was a case of "Do you think you can do the job of ...? Because we NEED you.", when in fact they didn't need THAT particular person!
Sorry guys, look back at history, and you will then UNDERSTAND how these people got to where they are, and why they NOW need desperately to cover their own arses. Because, if employment were based on ABILITY, the vast majority wouldn't stand a chance.
Similarly, when Abeles agreed to an Ansett pilots' "union", whom do you think he would have ensured got "pole positions" there? People who would work for HIM, and not rock the boat. So is it any REAL surprise that the APA has again ensured THEIR own survival ahead of the pilot group in general?!
PPRuNe is a good place to air your views, and glean other people's opinions, but it is NOT the place to try to regain your employment with TESNA.
Those of you who feel strongly about the issues discussed here need to form a group, and present your alternative proposals to Messrs Fox and Lew. They (FLEW) are in this deal to MAKE money from the start, and if you can demonstrate to them that they are starting from a position of weakness, rather than one of strength, you will find a willing ear, I'm sure.
Unfortunately the previous trucking magnate felt it was preferable to have "Yes men", or men who didn't express opposition to his edicts, rather than those with firm leadership capabilities and decisive in their actions, with a few notable exceptions in the Flight Ops Department (none of whom returned, btw).
Thus, most of the present incumbents were put into their positions of authority soon after acceding to Abeles demands in 1989-90, and have remained there ever since. If you recall, at that time Abeles had to rebuild Ansett as quickly as possible, and for him it was a case of "Do you think you can do the job of ...? Because we NEED you.", when in fact they didn't need THAT particular person!
Sorry guys, look back at history, and you will then UNDERSTAND how these people got to where they are, and why they NOW need desperately to cover their own arses. Because, if employment were based on ABILITY, the vast majority wouldn't stand a chance.
Similarly, when Abeles agreed to an Ansett pilots' "union", whom do you think he would have ensured got "pole positions" there? People who would work for HIM, and not rock the boat. So is it any REAL surprise that the APA has again ensured THEIR own survival ahead of the pilot group in general?!
PPRuNe is a good place to air your views, and glean other people's opinions, but it is NOT the place to try to regain your employment with TESNA.
Those of you who feel strongly about the issues discussed here need to form a group, and present your alternative proposals to Messrs Fox and Lew. They (FLEW) are in this deal to MAKE money from the start, and if you can demonstrate to them that they are starting from a position of weakness, rather than one of strength, you will find a willing ear, I'm sure.
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Kap M,
Not quite right about the present incumbents of the Flight Operastions Department. Certainly correct about those occupying those positions immediately after the '89 debacle. An acquiescent Flight Dept attitude was a factor in the B747 nosewheel incident in SY. Not one of the managers at that time, including a thoroughly obnoxious and vindictive individual lacking any CRM skills of and sort, is any longer in the Flight Department. Most were replaced in the two years or so after 1995.
The current crop are the result of Human Resources processes since then. It is worth noting that the quality of those selected, generally, is no better and probably worse than before.
Unfortunately that is also true of all other departments in AN which suffered in the same way. Good, experienced, practical people were replaced with highly theoretically qualified DILLS.
And of course there were the odd one or two imports from QF. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
Not quite right about the present incumbents of the Flight Operastions Department. Certainly correct about those occupying those positions immediately after the '89 debacle. An acquiescent Flight Dept attitude was a factor in the B747 nosewheel incident in SY. Not one of the managers at that time, including a thoroughly obnoxious and vindictive individual lacking any CRM skills of and sort, is any longer in the Flight Department. Most were replaced in the two years or so after 1995.
The current crop are the result of Human Resources processes since then. It is worth noting that the quality of those selected, generally, is no better and probably worse than before.
Unfortunately that is also true of all other departments in AN which suffered in the same way. Good, experienced, practical people were replaced with highly theoretically qualified DILLS.
And of course there were the odd one or two imports from QF. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
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Forgot to ask a question.
At one stage a person with a certain surname was involved with the "restructure" of AN maintenance.
Just recently I noticed that a person with the same surname seems to be prominent in the QF maintenance imbroglio.
Is it the same person?
At one stage a person with a certain surname was involved with the "restructure" of AN maintenance.
Just recently I noticed that a person with the same surname seems to be prominent in the QF maintenance imbroglio.
Is it the same person?
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I'm informed that 30 Capt,10 Fo's is an accurate figure but they all won't culled.There is a fair proportion of these Airbus boy's who have wanted to leave.Some are off to SQ,some to Silkair,some to other Airlines and others who have simply said"Jam it up your Ar$e"
I've been led to believe it would cost upwards of 200K to train a Bus Driver,Particularly if they have to be sent overseas.So if you say that it was closer to half the 40 that were actually culled.then 20 by 200= 4 million.
Gives me a warm fuzzy felling!!!!.
I've been led to believe it would cost upwards of 200K to train a Bus Driver,Particularly if they have to be sent overseas.So if you say that it was closer to half the 40 that were actually culled.then 20 by 200= 4 million.
Gives me a warm fuzzy felling!!!!.