WX Briefing and Flight Plan/Sartime submission
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WX Briefing and Flight Plan/Sartime submission
When are Airservices going to realise that pilots and passengers are being endangered by the "pay as you go" system instigated by... Airservices!!. The sooner we get back to real "Freecall 1800....." the better.
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Your not wrong!
Imagine if drivers got charged for road and traffic reports, Boat users being charged for weather alerts, banks increasing their fees (opps....they already did that), there would be an outcry. However no one seems to care (i.e. Media and Public) if Aviation users get hit with another charge.
Something needs to be done about it.
cficare,
I would hope it is only the private users that you are refering to, as the commercial operators should be passing these fees onto the paying public by now.
Imagine if drivers got charged for road and traffic reports, Boat users being charged for weather alerts, banks increasing their fees (opps....they already did that), there would be an outcry. However no one seems to care (i.e. Media and Public) if Aviation users get hit with another charge.
Something needs to be done about it.
cficare,
I would hope it is only the private users that you are refering to, as the commercial operators should be passing these fees onto the paying public by now.
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Have never purchased a phone card and don't intend to. The bottom line is that airservices can't really refuse your request for a briefing or the lodging of a flight plan etc.(although the person at the help desk might tell you otherwise).I have never not been put through to briefing, when I have sought their services. How foolish are CASA/Airservices going to look, when some poor schmuck wraps his/her 172 around a tree on the side of hill somewhere in sh!tty weather and it's revealed on the six o'clock news, that one of the contributing factors to the tragedy was the refusal of a Wx briefing, simply because the person concerned didn't have a phone card. I still remember on the very day that this idiotic system came into being, I recieved documentation from CASA informing me of the outstanding job they were doing, in their never ending pursuit of Aviation safety. Give me a break! Yet another SNAFU.
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CASA doing an outstanding job - what a joke ! I'll never purchase one of these phonecards. I find that I can predict the weather better just by watching the 6 o'clock news, and my mates provide a better sarwatch that Airservices could anyday. 
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So, yet another thread which boils down to the cost of air safety. We can only hope that the beancounters running ASA these days will eventually receive the message from everybody concerned. And the message is that while mid and high level aviation companies simply pass on the costs, the lower levels resent the costs added to an already expensive pursuit.
So what? Well, let's use old Saltshaker as an example of the effects. To avoid paying a couple of bucks, he gets his aviation weather from the 6pm news, and his mate holds his sartime. No doubt he believes that Notams never apply to him, and his mate will immediately commence a full and competent search and rescue mission when he suddenly realizes old Salty hasn't called. Our generic and now hypothetical Salty ploughs through Class E airspace with his transponder switched off and never says anything, because that way nobody will ever be able to track him down for any charges, thereby completely nullifying the laughable concept that RPT aircraft descending through his level will know about him. It's a big sky up there, after all. He carries unsuspecting passengers on IFR charters claiming to be VFR to avoid enroute charges. The list goes on; you think up a new charge to hit him with, he thinks of a new way of avoiding it, chuckling at beating those bloody interfering government dills.
The message, dear employers of mine, is that if the increasingly minimalist air safety system you are foisting on us all is going to work, it requires everybody involved to play their part, and if you don't believe that people will avoid their responsibilities if it means saving dollars, you're bloody dreaming. Wake up and let air safety be what it should be, a public service, not a business.
(Now who's the dreamer?)
RD
Edited to point the finger at a hypothetical pilot rather than an individual.
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Radar Departure2 ]
So what? Well, let's use old Saltshaker as an example of the effects. To avoid paying a couple of bucks, he gets his aviation weather from the 6pm news, and his mate holds his sartime. No doubt he believes that Notams never apply to him, and his mate will immediately commence a full and competent search and rescue mission when he suddenly realizes old Salty hasn't called. Our generic and now hypothetical Salty ploughs through Class E airspace with his transponder switched off and never says anything, because that way nobody will ever be able to track him down for any charges, thereby completely nullifying the laughable concept that RPT aircraft descending through his level will know about him. It's a big sky up there, after all. He carries unsuspecting passengers on IFR charters claiming to be VFR to avoid enroute charges. The list goes on; you think up a new charge to hit him with, he thinks of a new way of avoiding it, chuckling at beating those bloody interfering government dills.
The message, dear employers of mine, is that if the increasingly minimalist air safety system you are foisting on us all is going to work, it requires everybody involved to play their part, and if you don't believe that people will avoid their responsibilities if it means saving dollars, you're bloody dreaming. Wake up and let air safety be what it should be, a public service, not a business.
(Now who's the dreamer?)
RD
Edited to point the finger at a hypothetical pilot rather than an individual.
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Radar Departure2 ]
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I am ammazed that pilots throughout Australia have been mute on the subject of pilot briefing and availability of WX forecast information. And you are right...it will be a Coroners Enquiry that returns the system to what it should be....FREE..for the sake of safety.
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Just a question as I don't have to pay for my briefings. How much is a standard SPFIB briefing? Is it really that much given your paying a minimum of $150 an hour already.
PAF
PAF
Every $ counts to some people, and to others I guess there is a principle.
There are also pilots about that will do whatever is needed to save a buck. Not only ASA charges, but landing and parking fees as well.
There is a culture out there that will not change in our lifetime.
The fact is that the PIC will get the blame when the system run by accountants now sucks him in to a situation that he might otherwise not got himself into.
The sooner we see operational people running the system again the better.
There are also pilots about that will do whatever is needed to save a buck. Not only ASA charges, but landing and parking fees as well.
There is a culture out there that will not change in our lifetime.
The fact is that the PIC will get the blame when the system run by accountants now sucks him in to a situation that he might otherwise not got himself into.
The sooner we see operational people running the system again the better.
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Radar Departure2
I fear the same scenario was true even when you didn't have to pay for it, the only difference was that they were the same cowboys egged on by head cowpuncher RHS. We even rewarded his efforts by putting him in charge of the chickens TWICE
There's a mixed metaphor in there somewhere
Having to pay for it now legitimises their stupidity.
At least in the former mode they did not have any excuse.
And you are dead right it's about public safety not business.
I fear the same scenario was true even when you didn't have to pay for it, the only difference was that they were the same cowboys egged on by head cowpuncher RHS. We even rewarded his efforts by putting him in charge of the chickens TWICE
There's a mixed metaphor in there somewhere
Having to pay for it now legitimises their stupidity.
At least in the former mode they did not have any excuse.
And you are dead right it's about public safety not business.
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Given that I've paid for a phonecard, there is still the reluctance of [Brisbane] Briefing to give you what you want over the phone.
"Do you have a fax?"......."No, if I had a fax I wouldn't be talking to you now!!"
The worst I've struck was finally silenced with the question "Are you denying me operational information which will affect the safety of my flight?" That worked.
They've probably gone over to the Telstra operator system; max 45 seconds per call or we'll review your employment!
Access to a phone is another issue. On our recent Qld travelling circus, and with this very subject in mind, I sought in vain a public phone at Cloncurry airport.
It's all great in theory!
G'day
[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Feather #3 ]
"Do you have a fax?"......."No, if I had a fax I wouldn't be talking to you now!!"
The worst I've struck was finally silenced with the question "Are you denying me operational information which will affect the safety of my flight?" That worked.
They've probably gone over to the Telstra operator system; max 45 seconds per call or we'll review your employment!
Access to a phone is another issue. On our recent Qld travelling circus, and with this very subject in mind, I sought in vain a public phone at Cloncurry airport.
It's all great in theory!
G'day
[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Feather #3 ]
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Don't know if anybody has noticed, but Melbourne Briefing finally closed this month. Cheers to all the LEGENDS (Learned Erstwhile Gentlemen Experiencing New DirectionsS) who stuck it to the bitter end, and welcome to those LOSERS (Lowliest Operators Serving Experience Radar Separators) who are emerging as we speak (type??) from the college.
Put bean counters in charge and they don't even care if a service is given, just how much it costs....
Put bean counters in charge and they don't even care if a service is given, just how much it costs....
Bottums Up
Towering Q
Allow me the chance to give my version. Appologies to Gaunty.
Daddy bull and Junior Bull are standing on a grassy knoll, purveying their heifer empire.
Junior bull, just through puberty is as randy as, well, a bull in springtime, and says to Daddy Bull, "come on dad, lets race down there and cut one of them cows out."
Daddy bull replies, a-la Gaunty's sig, ""Well son instead of racing down there and cutting one out, why don't we just mosey on down and get the lot of em?"
Ah, the wisdom, oops, impetuosity of youth, hey Gaunty!
[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]
Allow me the chance to give my version. Appologies to Gaunty.
Daddy bull and Junior Bull are standing on a grassy knoll, purveying their heifer empire.
Junior bull, just through puberty is as randy as, well, a bull in springtime, and says to Daddy Bull, "come on dad, lets race down there and cut one of them cows out."
Daddy bull replies, a-la Gaunty's sig, ""Well son instead of racing down there and cutting one out, why don't we just mosey on down and get the lot of em?"
Ah, the wisdom, oops, impetuosity of youth, hey Gaunty!
[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]
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I also love the way that you are berated by the ‘airservices operators’ when you don’t have a card with you and desperately need some wx, information.
The unpredictable nature of flying charter requires a service that can be accessed at any time. Many times have I been stuck somewhere longer than planned, needed an update on the wx, last light etc and had to ring briefing since the a/c is 5kms away and your pax are nowhere to be seen. Not everyone is in a big city with unlimited internet access evrywhere you go.
Get through on the 1800 number and wait for the ‘airservices’ operator. You explain that you don’t have your card handy and require some information from briefing. They then start to question your motives and reasons, ask why you don’t have your card with you, almost like they are looking for a good reason not to put you through!
Half a dozen times now I have rung through like that without a card number. I wonder if everyone started ‘forgetting’ their cards, whether or not they could ever refuse you access to critical and essential information. I’m quite sure that the operator wouldn’t want to be responsible for an aircraft to go blundering into degenerating weather or notamed military exercises because information was denied.
The material given out explaining the new changes some time ago quoted that the briefing services then provided to pilots for free was costing 1.5 million dollars a year! Hardly massive cost cutting.
The issue here isn’t the fact that the aircraft costs so many dollars an hour to charter, so what's an extra buck fifty. The bottom line is that the more accessible a service that is so crucial, such as this one is, the more it is going to be used. This affects everyone. We all fly in the same sky. As has been said time and time again, those that are at the ‘bottom’ end of the aviation scale are slowly being eroded at and pushed ever more out of the picture.
In a country such as this, aviation, and especially general aviation plays a role that can’t be duplicated in any other form. Miners, pastoralists, tourists, governments, police, search and rescue and a multitude of other agencies rely on aviation.
With the continuing emphasis on ‘affordable safety’, those with these single minded and totally unpractical, archaic and dangerous policies will have blood on their hands in the future.
The unpredictable nature of flying charter requires a service that can be accessed at any time. Many times have I been stuck somewhere longer than planned, needed an update on the wx, last light etc and had to ring briefing since the a/c is 5kms away and your pax are nowhere to be seen. Not everyone is in a big city with unlimited internet access evrywhere you go.
Get through on the 1800 number and wait for the ‘airservices’ operator. You explain that you don’t have your card handy and require some information from briefing. They then start to question your motives and reasons, ask why you don’t have your card with you, almost like they are looking for a good reason not to put you through!
Half a dozen times now I have rung through like that without a card number. I wonder if everyone started ‘forgetting’ their cards, whether or not they could ever refuse you access to critical and essential information. I’m quite sure that the operator wouldn’t want to be responsible for an aircraft to go blundering into degenerating weather or notamed military exercises because information was denied.
The material given out explaining the new changes some time ago quoted that the briefing services then provided to pilots for free was costing 1.5 million dollars a year! Hardly massive cost cutting.
The issue here isn’t the fact that the aircraft costs so many dollars an hour to charter, so what's an extra buck fifty. The bottom line is that the more accessible a service that is so crucial, such as this one is, the more it is going to be used. This affects everyone. We all fly in the same sky. As has been said time and time again, those that are at the ‘bottom’ end of the aviation scale are slowly being eroded at and pushed ever more out of the picture.
In a country such as this, aviation, and especially general aviation plays a role that can’t be duplicated in any other form. Miners, pastoralists, tourists, governments, police, search and rescue and a multitude of other agencies rely on aviation.
With the continuing emphasis on ‘affordable safety’, those with these single minded and totally unpractical, archaic and dangerous policies will have blood on their hands in the future.
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Just to add to what low-slung was on about... I have found the BoM numbers listed in the met section of Jepps to be great value. Probably more use if things are borderline than an on-airport call to update met data you got from AA before leaving home.
The ARFOR product from AA covers a huge volume, and not often. So if you read there might be TS somewhere in area 21, goodness knows if they are really there & within coo-ee.
I recommend calling BoM direct. Learn what they see on radar, in real time.
Equally for other conditions if the forecast you get via AA does not mesh with reality then try talking to BoM direct.
Probably a better option than accessing via net, NAIPS or phonecard every few minutes in the hope AA will deliver you an updated and useful forecast.
The ARFOR product from AA covers a huge volume, and not often. So if you read there might be TS somewhere in area 21, goodness knows if they are really there & within coo-ee.
I recommend calling BoM direct. Learn what they see on radar, in real time.
Equally for other conditions if the forecast you get via AA does not mesh with reality then try talking to BoM direct.
Probably a better option than accessing via net, NAIPS or phonecard every few minutes in the hope AA will deliver you an updated and useful forecast.
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For a slightly different perspective, I support the charges. Granted the process may not be the best possible service, but it's not bad either. In my limited understanding, I am under the impression Airservices are recouping the cost of communications and excluding the cost of providing the briefing service. My car mechanic charges $60.00 per hour. I'd hate to think what the briefing office would charge if the costs were passed on.
I have several reasons for supporting the commication costs. Firstly, the money has to come from somewhere and as a taxpayer, I object to funding briefing services for pilots through my taxes. Secondly, as a pilot, I own a computer and I don't enjoy subsidising briefing services for other pilots through other charges any more than I have to. Thirdly, as an airline passenger, I resent higher ticket prices in order for some cut to be provided to other people.
By all means, make the briefing service a freecall service. Just get the money to pay for it from somewhere else.
I have several reasons for supporting the commication costs. Firstly, the money has to come from somewhere and as a taxpayer, I object to funding briefing services for pilots through my taxes. Secondly, as a pilot, I own a computer and I don't enjoy subsidising briefing services for other pilots through other charges any more than I have to. Thirdly, as an airline passenger, I resent higher ticket prices in order for some cut to be provided to other people.
By all means, make the briefing service a freecall service. Just get the money to pay for it from somewhere else.
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It still saddens me that for the seemingly (?) small amout on M$1.5, the beaurocrats are willing to RISK air traffic safety.
I heard a figure touted around a number of months ago, spent on the Ambulance Inquiry )intergraph) of M$40 plus ... equality ??
I heard a figure touted around a number of months ago, spent on the Ambulance Inquiry )intergraph) of M$40 plus ... equality ??
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Lodown I think the costs of briefings are passed on already, via existing taxes and charges on aviation.
The phoneaway is really a double-dip; advertised as for recovering comms costs.
AA, if it were honest, could at least provide a 'normal' STD number as an option for briefings. The user can then get through without a card as long as she/he is able to pay for the phone call. Call cost would not fall on AA obviously.
The phoneaway is really a double-dip; advertised as for recovering comms costs.
AA, if it were honest, could at least provide a 'normal' STD number as an option for briefings. The user can then get through without a card as long as she/he is able to pay for the phone call. Call cost would not fall on AA obviously.
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C_W_E, yes, we all pay for the briefing services, and I don't mind that because we all benefit. There is a difference when it comes to how we access the service. It would seem the electronic access is the cheapest to operate and is probably dirt cheap to administer. The fax and voice briefing service requires additional administration and communication charges. If I am using a cheap method of accessing the briefing office, why should I directly or indirectly subsidise someone else who elects to use the more expensive access method?
I think the big change brought about by the introduction of briefing charges is that the demand on the fax/voice services has probably reduced in favour of electronic access.
When the services were free, we down-loaded everything we could from the briefing office as often as we liked. This must have cost a considerable amount. Now that we have charges, there is an incentive for people to consider the information they require and their means of access to that information. (I know I did.) I think the results are already seen in the fact that the Melbourne briefing office has closed and demand still seems to be met.
As for discouraging people from accessing those services, I think Gaunty hit the nail on the head. The same people were probably doing this before the charges were introduced. Comments on this topic are trying to hold CASA and Airservices responsible for people who don't retrieve the information because of cost, and thereby reducing safety. I am in favour of having a choice. I'm aware of the rules and if I elect to go flying without obtaining WX and NOTAM surely the responsibility rests squarely on my shoulders.
Looking at it another way. If a car driver injures someone as a direct result of knowingly driving on bald tyres, do we blame the Main Roads Department and the cops for not supplying free tyres? It might just be me, but I don't see that this comparison between raod and aviation differs that much.
I think the big change brought about by the introduction of briefing charges is that the demand on the fax/voice services has probably reduced in favour of electronic access.
When the services were free, we down-loaded everything we could from the briefing office as often as we liked. This must have cost a considerable amount. Now that we have charges, there is an incentive for people to consider the information they require and their means of access to that information. (I know I did.) I think the results are already seen in the fact that the Melbourne briefing office has closed and demand still seems to be met.
As for discouraging people from accessing those services, I think Gaunty hit the nail on the head. The same people were probably doing this before the charges were introduced. Comments on this topic are trying to hold CASA and Airservices responsible for people who don't retrieve the information because of cost, and thereby reducing safety. I am in favour of having a choice. I'm aware of the rules and if I elect to go flying without obtaining WX and NOTAM surely the responsibility rests squarely on my shoulders.
Looking at it another way. If a car driver injures someone as a direct result of knowingly driving on bald tyres, do we blame the Main Roads Department and the cops for not supplying free tyres? It might just be me, but I don't see that this comparison between raod and aviation differs that much.