logging of ICUS
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logging of ICUS
A little unsure as to how to total ICUS in terms of total aeronautical experience. I know that co-pilot time counts towards total flying hours, but only 50% of that counts towards your total aeronautical experience. Does the same apply to ICUS in a single or is it all included in total aeronautical experience?
I know that a condition of ICUS is that you must be the co-pilot, which is why I am a little unsure. How about single engine co-pilot times logged in the ICUS column: like when two instructor candidates are practising mutual flying?
I am inclined to subtract 50% off both times for the total aeronautical experience total, but would like some guidance because I know of at least a couple of other people who have not treated it in this manner.
I know that a condition of ICUS is that you must be the co-pilot, which is why I am a little unsure. How about single engine co-pilot times logged in the ICUS column: like when two instructor candidates are practising mutual flying?
I am inclined to subtract 50% off both times for the total aeronautical experience total, but would like some guidance because I know of at least a couple of other people who have not treated it in this manner.
Mutual flying for an instructor rating is a little different and does count towards tt. A lot of other time is logged as ICUS that does not meet the definition. AirServices has some info available on ICUS. There was a posting a few weeks ago here with more info. If you can locate it, it would be worthwhile.
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We used to log ICUS in a two crew turboprop to denote when the F/O was acting as PF but NZ CAA audited and said ICUS could only be used for left seat ICUS (command upgrade training/training captain right seat). Since the definition of ICUS is in command which they felt was different from just being PF irrespective of how much decision making the skipper lets you do.
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Thanks for the replies people. Maybe I didn't phrase my request properly.
All I really want to know is when the time comes to total your flying hours from the page in your log book just completed, do you add all of the times as ICUS or SE co-pilot into the total aeronautical experience total, or only 50% as you do with the multi engine co-pilot column.
All I really want to know is when the time comes to total your flying hours from the page in your log book just completed, do you add all of the times as ICUS or SE co-pilot into the total aeronautical experience total, or only 50% as you do with the multi engine co-pilot column.
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OK, from the way that I have interpreted the guidlines in the front of my log book it seems that 100% of ICUS is counted towards total aeronautical experience. Still unsure about single engine co-pilot though (2 instructor candidates). Anyone?
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Hi peanutter.
You have me confused How are you logging single engine co pilot time? You may only log co pilot time IF the aircraft you are flying requires two crew or if it's required by your company operation. So, does your company REQUIRE two crew due to a client contractual obligation or a lack of an autopilot as per CAO 20.18 4.1B. I don't know any singles in Australia with in excess of 15-passengers so I don't think CAO 20.16.3 6.1(ii) would apply.
Keep in mind also that if you are operating with two pilots (and one is logging time as co pilot) you must have an approved two-pilot checklist as per 20.18 3(a) & 4 and a company approved part B in the absence of any generic two crew operations in Part A or equivalent. Do you have this?
My understanding is that a few operators of aircraft types such as the single engine PC12 have adopted multi crew procedures and as such you may log co pilot time. If this is the case you are to log 50% of the flying to your total aeronautical experience. I think that single engine RPT with in excess of 9 pax also requires two pilots (as per CAO 82.3 8.1c) so there's another situation where co-pilot time on singles may be legally logged.
First, if you are logging ICUS, the other guy still logs command. This is why the whole 10-hour thing is somewhat questionable. You cannot have two pilots logging command together indefinately!
Two instructor candidates can log command at the same time as long as they are in the process of undertaking trainig for the rating. That is where that ends. Read CAO 40.1.7 4.1B (keeping in mind that although two student instructors may log all the time as command, one pilot will be nominated as the 'Captain' of the ship.
As for ICUS, CASA won't approve your ops manual without a company policy on its application. There is even some question whether any ICUS beyond the 10 hours required by CAO 82.1 4.1(b) is legal. Some operators require more than the obligitory 10 hours but provide suitable justification in their ops manual. Bank running operators have always subsidised their dodgy operation with the revenue raised from getting suckers into paying for ludicrous amounts of ICUS. Keep in mind that this practice is illegal.
I think that two pilot operations and in particular the logging and legalities of ICUS are some of the most misunderstood regulations in aviation. Don't rely on prune as a reference. Read your regs alongside your company ops manual and in the absence of answers, consult your friendly
CASA FOI. If they give you an answer and it seems somewhat questionable get it in writing so they can't put you in prison for it later on!
Sorry about rambling!
You have me confused
How are you logging single engine co pilot time? You may only log co pilot time IF the aircraft you are flying requires two crew or if it's required by your company operation. So, does your company REQUIRE two crew due to a client contractual obligation or a lack of an autopilot as per CAO 20.18 4.1B. I don't know any singles in Australia with in excess of 15-passengers so I don't think CAO 20.16.3 6.1(ii) would apply. Keep in mind also that if you are operating with two pilots (and one is logging time as co pilot) you must have an approved two-pilot checklist as per 20.18 3(a) & 4 and a company approved part B in the absence of any generic two crew operations in Part A or equivalent. Do you have this?
My understanding is that a few operators of aircraft types such as the single engine PC12 have adopted multi crew procedures and as such you may log co pilot time. If this is the case you are to log 50% of the flying to your total aeronautical experience. I think that single engine RPT with in excess of 9 pax also requires two pilots (as per CAO 82.3 8.1c) so there's another situation where co-pilot time on singles may be legally logged.
I know that a condition of ICUS is that you must be the co-pilot, which is why I am a little unsure. How about single engine co-pilot times logged in the ICUS column: like when two instructor candidates are practising mutual flying?
Two instructor candidates can log command at the same time as long as they are in the process of undertaking trainig for the rating. That is where that ends. Read CAO 40.1.7 4.1B (keeping in mind that although two student instructors may log all the time as command, one pilot will be nominated as the 'Captain' of the ship.
As for ICUS, CASA won't approve your ops manual without a company policy on its application. There is even some question whether any ICUS beyond the 10 hours required by CAO 82.1 4.1(b) is legal. Some operators require more than the obligitory 10 hours but provide suitable justification in their ops manual. Bank running operators have always subsidised their dodgy operation with the revenue raised from getting suckers into paying for ludicrous amounts of ICUS. Keep in mind that this practice is illegal.
I think that two pilot operations and in particular the logging and legalities of ICUS are some of the most misunderstood regulations in aviation. Don't rely on prune as a reference. Read your regs alongside your company ops manual and in the absence of answers, consult your friendly
CASA FOI. If they give you an answer and it seems somewhat questionable get it in writing so they can't put you in prison for it later on!Sorry about rambling!
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G'day Turbine,
Thanks for the insight. No I'm not in a large charter or RPT single, just a cessna trying to get a little time on type for para ops. Now, according to the front of my log book all of the time I log as ICUS is counted towards my grand total flying hours and my total aeronautical experience. So that answers that question.
I was also asking about mutual practise for the issue of an instructor rating. I think that you may have mis-interpreted how to go about logging this time, because you say that both candidates may log time in command, but one person must still be nominated the captain. I think that this is incorrect.
From reading CAO 40.1.7 4B as you directed and the front of my log book again, I am led to understand that one pilot may log command, while the other logs single engine co-pilot (which I am putting in my ICUS column retitled as SE co-pilot).
Now the real issue that I want to resolve is whether or not this time that I am logging as single engine co-pilot counts in total towards total aeronautical experience, or whether only half of this time counts towards that figure. This seems to be a grey area.
I hope that this clarifies the issue for you.
Thanks for the insight. No I'm not in a large charter or RPT single, just a cessna trying to get a little time on type for para ops. Now, according to the front of my log book all of the time I log as ICUS is counted towards my grand total flying hours and my total aeronautical experience. So that answers that question.
I was also asking about mutual practise for the issue of an instructor rating. I think that you may have mis-interpreted how to go about logging this time, because you say that both candidates may log time in command, but one person must still be nominated the captain. I think that this is incorrect.
From reading CAO 40.1.7 4B as you directed and the front of my log book again, I am led to understand that one pilot may log command, while the other logs single engine co-pilot (which I am putting in my ICUS column retitled as SE co-pilot).
Now the real issue that I want to resolve is whether or not this time that I am logging as single engine co-pilot counts in total towards total aeronautical experience, or whether only half of this time counts towards that figure. This seems to be a grey area.
I hope that this clarifies the issue for you.
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peanutter.
The time you log as mutual flight time is still logged in your logbook as command. You can not log co-pilot time.
Read 40.1.7 again. I quote: "...one pilot must be nominated as pilot in command but both pilots may log all of the flight time during which mutual practive is undertaken as counting towards the flight time requirement" (the requirement been the 50 hours). This implies quite clearly that both pilots log 100% of the time. The requirement should also be written into your company part E - CASA won't approve your training operation without it.
The 'instructions' in your logbook are as useful as the text on the back of a box of fruit loops. Disregard them.
I can't think of how you can legally justify logging ICUS whilst conducting para ops, especially in a single, and definitely not if it's a private operation and/or VFR.
You are making mistakes with the logging of your flight time. Rather than continuing to make your own (incorrect interpretations) I suggest you get some advice from your CP, CFI or FOI.
The time you log as mutual flight time is still logged in your logbook as command. You can not log co-pilot time.
Read 40.1.7 again. I quote: "...one pilot must be nominated as pilot in command but both pilots may log all of the flight time during which mutual practive is undertaken as counting towards the flight time requirement" (the requirement been the 50 hours). This implies quite clearly that both pilots log 100% of the time. The requirement should also be written into your company part E - CASA won't approve your training operation without it.
The 'instructions' in your logbook are as useful as the text on the back of a box of fruit loops. Disregard them.
just a cessna trying to get a little time on type for para ops. Now, according to the front of my log book all of the time I log as ICUS is counted towards my grand total flying hours and my total aeronautical experience. So that answers that question.
You are making mistakes with the logging of your flight time. Rather than continuing to make your own (incorrect interpretations) I suggest you get some advice from your CP, CFI or FOI.
