JT CAGRU FINISHED-COMMENTS

[DESCEND WHEN READY]

Believe that Jandakot radio (traffic advisory between 6-9 pm) has finished. This could make things very interesting.. .. .Would like to thank those who have done the CAGRU in a very stressful environment. Shame ASA can not see that longer tower hours would actually make things safer.. .. .I have started the ball....

[Angle of Attack]

Well if its true, I would be concerned about it, operators and the public alike because quite frankly with the increase in night circuit training especially since the Ground Operator started there will be chaos and it will only be a matter of time before an accident occurs, I think there should be some serious consideration over what happens to this service in the future, either tower open, continued air-ground operator, or MBZ(which is a guaranteed accident waiting to happen) Airservices needs to think about it.

[Spinnerhead]

Well then, you instructor types better be real carefull about who you send up on night circuits hadn't you. Like maybe 8 in the circuit is getting a bit scarey. Stop your whining and do the job according to the prevailing conditions.

[Capcom]

DESCEND WHEN READY . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .Believe that Jandakot radio (traffic advisory between 6-9 pm) has finished. This could make things very interesting.. .. .Would like to thank those who have done the CAGRU in a very stressful environment. Shame ASA can not see that longer tower hours would actually make things safer.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Concur – Good job considering the constraints of CAGRO.. .. .CASA could not remove the CAGRO service and then NOT replace it with ATC. . .If they have? . .Scream at Anderson to do the right thing before someone is killed!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .CAIR reports etc. Pick up the phone and demand to talk to one of his advisers and follow up in print. . .There is Insurance implications that might make ATC costs look small in comparison! . .. .Spinnerhead . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .Well then, you instructor types better be real carefull about who you send up on night circuits hadn't you. Like maybe 8 in the circuit is getting a bit scarey. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">8 in the circuit at night is busy for GAAP ATC, let alone 8 players trying to guess the others intentions through osmosis or intuition no matter how good or bad they are!. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .Stop your whining and do the job according to the prevailing conditions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">If you booked a student for night circuits, unless you have contacted each and every other school to ascertain how many are going to fly that night, you might turn up to a full circuit! (Your interpretation of a full circuit may vary from others!) . .What would you do?. . . .If you join the circus, what would the others say and or do?. .If another circus aircraft said “hey too many” . .Would you stay on the ground and waste your students time and money or . .ignore the other pilots comments and throw caution to the wind anyway?. .Who regulates who? And on what set of protocols?. .. .Can’t see that as Whining, I see that as the core issue of concern for those who exist in this airspace on a regular basis!. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[gaunty]

Now I know the worlds gone stark staring barking mad.. .. .Unbelieveable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The decision to stop the CA/GRO was not CASA's to make, it was made by the providers of the service, because the situation has become so unworkable, the MBZ is at times well beyond saturation point, and the non-compliance with procedures by many pilots creates a hazard for those who are doing the right thing.. .. .They did a great job and the service will be missed. (so long Mark and thanks for all the fish). .. .Never mind the CAIR reports, they can't release them to Airservices, So all the CAIRs that have been sent in were apparently a waste of effort, sorry folks. (Many of us gave up sending them because absolutely nothing was done anyway) . .. .ASA seem to think there is no justification for increased tower hours without incident reports and statistics ; opinions of those who are responsible for trying to maintain a safe operation in this debacle are worth zip to them and have been since the debacle began.. .. .There seems to be no effective communication between ASA, ATSB, and CASA. It would appear that the original safety case didn't have much to do with reality, and the decision to close the tower at 6pm was a fait accompli well before the "industry consultation" (What a joke that was) My impression is that ASA don't want to admit they screwed it up, and maybe it'll take a fatal to make them do something about it. They would also have to admit that making half the experienced controllers at JT redundant was a BIG mistake.. .. .Instead, the onus is on the operators to prove we need a tower, rather than on them to prove we don't. . .. .So let's hope that sanity will prevail, and the closure of the CA/GRO will force the hands of those in ASA who can do something about this before it is too late.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 15:48: Message edited by: Charlie Foxtrot India ]</small>

[Capcom]

Charlie Foxtrot India . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .The decision to stop the CA/GRO was not CASA's to make, it was made by the providers of the service, because the situation has become so unworkable, the MBZ is at times well beyond saturation point, and the non-compliance with procedures by many pilots creates a hazard for those who are doing the right thing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Agreed – In this case the cart acted before the horse, who could blame them, the people operating the CAGRO must have been uncomfortable.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .Never mind the CAIR reports, they can't release them to Airservices, So all the CAIRs that have been sent in were apparently a waste of effort, sorry folks. (Many of us gave up sending them because absolutely nothing was done anyway)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">As I understand, CASA have the responsibility as the Regulator to assess Establishment/Disestablishment of services. The service provider (AsA) then determines the means of providing the service required. AsA holds some delegations to effect change within those services provided.. .ATSB should - Receive reports - Investigate and then recommend to CASA/AsA as the case may be.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .ASA seem to think there is no justification for increased tower hours without incident reports and statistics ; opinions of those who are responsible for trying to maintain a safe operation in this debacle are worth zip to them and have been since the debacle began.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Hard to draw any other conclusion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .– Included FYI, the last Para particularly pertinent :-. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . . West Australian . .March 16 2002. .. . Tower Hours up in the Air . .By Eloise Dortch . .. .JANDAKOT Airport wants an extension of its air traffic control tower. .operating hours after two planes collided at the airport in February.. .. .The airport is the site of 11 flying schools and is the busiest in. .Australia.. .. .The airport's management has urged Airservices Australia, the Federal. .Government-owned organisation which operates the airport's control. .tower, to extend its hours from 7.30am-6pm to 8am-9pm.. .. .The request came as the airport announced the closure of its after-. .hours certified air-ground radio operator service on the basis that. .the single operator service could not adequately tell pilots of each. .other's whereabouts.. .. .Airport manager Anne Watson said on February 22 - soon after the air. .traffic control tower had closed for the night and a certified air. .ground radio operator had come on duty - an ultra light plane collided. .with a Cessna.. .. .No one was hurt, though one man was taken to hospital for observation.. .. .Ms Watson said on that several days in February up to 60 movements. .were made within an hour at the airport after 6pm.. .. .She had said the airport had lobbied for the control tower hours to be. .extended.. .. .Airservices Australia spokesman Richard Dudley said recent surveys by. .his organisation showed most airport users did not wish to pay to use. .the airport during the evening.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Echo Echo…... .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> There seems to be no effective communication between ASA, ATSB, and CASA. It would appear that the original safety case didn't have much to do with reality, and the decision to close the tower at 6pm was a fait accompli well before the "industry consultation" (What a joke that was) My impression is that ASA don't want to admit they screwed it up, and maybe it'll take a fatal to make them do something about it. They would also have to admit that making half the experienced controllers at JT redundant was a BIG mistake.. .. .Instead, the onus is on the operators to prove we need a tower, rather than on them to prove we don't. . .. .So let's hope that sanity will prevail, and the closure of the CA/GRO will force the hands of those in ASA who can do something about this before it is too late.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Hear Hear !!!

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Who is Richard Dudley, what is his position in AsA, and who did he survey? Tower or not, you still have to pay to use the airport at any time of day, so either this bloke has been misquoted - which I can believe as the lady who wrote the article can't even report the current tower hours correctly - or he forgot to survey the management and operators at YPJT. . .. .Maybe he consulted those true representatives of GA who want to turn the tower into McDonalds...or maybe went around with a clipboard asking people at random "Would you prefer to a) pay for landing or b) not pay for landing..." . .. .I call on Mr. Dudley to make his survey and its results available to the management and air operators of Jandakot Airport. . .. .I also call on those in AsA who have ignored the true industry representatives for far too long, to be held personally responsible and accountable for safety in the MBZ, and to personally cover any increase in insurance premiums that we may face because of the current situation.. .. .Fat chance.

[bernaise]

Believe it or not, Jandakot tower will be extending the hours shortly. From 20 May 02 and for the winter months, it will be open until 8pm. And when the summer months roll on, it will be 9pm. Not sure of the exact date for the change to the 9pm finish.
The longer hours will apply Mon - Fri, but not on the weekend. At least that's the case at the moment.

[Icarus2001]

So progress has taken us back to where we were, what 4 or 5 years ago? Amazing.