Impulse To Crew Australian Airlines
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No way they'll put mainline crews into AA. It might be cheaper in the short term but way more expensive over time. They might offer current FO's an upgrade to quit QF and be re-employed with AA. I believe future upgrades in QF will become few and far between.
AA is the future and QF management know it. There is no cost saving using current crews, and cost saving is what AA is all about.
AA is the future and QF management know it. There is no cost saving using current crews, and cost saving is what AA is all about.
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Its all humour.The extract from strobes on " The minister relied on Mr Dixon for unbaised aviation policy advice" is like asking Osama Bin laden for advice on Humanitarian relief for war torn countries in Africa. 
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Okay guys, here are the facts as they stood as of last Wednesday morning.
According to Peter Quinn, previously Manager of Training on the B767 at Qantas and the new Australian Airlines Flight Ops Manager designate, Qantas and AIPA are engaged in very amicable negotiations concerning AA flight crew. This is what he said:
Australian Airlines will have a cost structure of 25 percent below that of mainline QF. To achieve this they require flight crew savings of 20 percent. AIPA have advised the company that these savings can easily be achieved with QF pilots on 767 rates of pay but with poorer slip times, accommodation standards, lack of home transport etc etc etc. Flight attendants, however, are a totally different story . .
Most importantly of all, they expect to make a decision in the next few weeks. Like Keg, I don't rule out the possibility of AA recruiting pilots from outside QF, but it will only occur if insufficient crews can be sourced from within. This is a realistic possibility because of the massive expansion occurring within Qantas over the next 18mths.
It also remains to be seen whether QF crews will be contracted, or seconded to AA short term (as is the case when going from longhaul to shorthaul) or whatever.
That is straight from the horses mouth . . .
According to Peter Quinn, previously Manager of Training on the B767 at Qantas and the new Australian Airlines Flight Ops Manager designate, Qantas and AIPA are engaged in very amicable negotiations concerning AA flight crew. This is what he said:
Australian Airlines will have a cost structure of 25 percent below that of mainline QF. To achieve this they require flight crew savings of 20 percent. AIPA have advised the company that these savings can easily be achieved with QF pilots on 767 rates of pay but with poorer slip times, accommodation standards, lack of home transport etc etc etc. Flight attendants, however, are a totally different story . .
Most importantly of all, they expect to make a decision in the next few weeks. Like Keg, I don't rule out the possibility of AA recruiting pilots from outside QF, but it will only occur if insufficient crews can be sourced from within. This is a realistic possibility because of the massive expansion occurring within Qantas over the next 18mths.
It also remains to be seen whether QF crews will be contracted, or seconded to AA short term (as is the case when going from longhaul to shorthaul) or whatever.
That is straight from the horses mouth . . .
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MAMMAN
May I quote from just one email regarding your efforts so far.
PPRuNe is here for all to use in a 'civilised' manner.
"hurling personal abuse" does not fit into that definition.
One of the definitions of PPRuNes success is intelligent and informed discussion on matters aviation, not flaming matches. There are plenty of other places to go if that is your thing.
I am sure that you have much to offer your fellow PPRuNers in an informative and constructive manner. Thats up to you.
Censor comment or subject matter I do not unless there are legal implications for PPRuNe, no dark humour, no malicious intent
Censor personal vilification I do.
I will tolerate the odd outburst on the basis of 'you get that on these big jobs' but when it gets boring chasing the same poster all over the forum it's the bin for him.
All hail to Woomera indeed, I do not need to make an example of you, the regular denizens herein know and accept the rules.
Here is the Roman thumbs up to you, the bin for a time of reflection......"click".
May I quote from just one email regarding your efforts so far.
In the not too distant past I was a regular on Pprune but gave it away because of ****** like Mamman hurling personal abuse for expressing an opinion that does'nt match his.
"hurling personal abuse" does not fit into that definition.
One of the definitions of PPRuNes success is intelligent and informed discussion on matters aviation, not flaming matches. There are plenty of other places to go if that is your thing.
I am sure that you have much to offer your fellow PPRuNers in an informative and constructive manner. Thats up to you.
Censor comment or subject matter I do not unless there are legal implications for PPRuNe, no dark humour, no malicious intent
Censor personal vilification I do.
I will tolerate the odd outburst on the basis of 'you get that on these big jobs' but when it gets boring chasing the same poster all over the forum it's the bin for him.
All hail to Woomera indeed, I do not need to make an example of you, the regular denizens herein know and accept the rules.
Here is the Roman thumbs up to you, the bin for a time of reflection......"click".
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Is it possible that Aussie Air will be run in a similar style to Cathay Cargo?
All Cathay pilots were offered a position with CX Cargo - but on greatly reduced salaries, of course
.
From memory, most if not all CX drivers chose NOT to join (in spite of the fast-tracking to the lhs that would have occurred for some F/O's), and consequently the vacancies were advertised.
It never ceases to amaze me how managements are able to justify spending tens of millions of dollars to set up new companies, with new logos and advertising, AND additional office space and staff, but telling the public it is for a new "budget/low-cost carrier"!
Whilst it is obviously an attempt to split the pilots (union), it is also "Empire-building" on a grandiose scale. Obviously the money would be better spent on IMPROVING company/staff relations!
IMHO, it is the QANTAS pilots' BEST interests to make sure that ONLY THEY fill ALL slots with any new QF start-up. Accept the downgraded conditions initially, but stay inside (that was our mistake in THAT year - that we let ourselves get outside), and fight for an improvement after the dust has settled.
All Cathay pilots were offered a position with CX Cargo - but on greatly reduced salaries, of course
. From memory, most if not all CX drivers chose NOT to join (in spite of the fast-tracking to the lhs that would have occurred for some F/O's), and consequently the vacancies were advertised.
It never ceases to amaze me how managements are able to justify spending tens of millions of dollars to set up new companies, with new logos and advertising, AND additional office space and staff, but telling the public it is for a new "budget/low-cost carrier"!
Whilst it is obviously an attempt to split the pilots (union), it is also "Empire-building" on a grandiose scale. Obviously the money would be better spent on IMPROVING company/staff relations!
IMHO, it is the QANTAS pilots' BEST interests to make sure that ONLY THEY fill ALL slots with any new QF start-up. Accept the downgraded conditions initially, but stay inside (that was our mistake in THAT year - that we let ourselves get outside), and fight for an improvement after the dust has settled.
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Soup Nazi:
You obviously have your own OPINION and will NOT let FACTS (as they currently stand) get in the way of it!
Those of us who work for QF are TELLING you what the latest state of play is - including what was said by the QF CEO in a meeting with QF pilots held on TUESDAY this week!! His comments reflected the comments of the President of AIPA as witnessed by ME at the AGM in Novemeber!! If you can let all of these FACTS stand in the way of your OPINION, your posts can only be considered a waste of time by someone who is obviously biased against QF!!!!
BB just read your post.
Mate you must be kidding!!! Do you seriously think that Impulse pilots should get the first crack at AA when QF has type-endorsed mainline pilots who have been a part of QF for years (unlike the absorbed Impulse guys)!!!
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Three Bars ]
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Three Bars ]
You obviously have your own OPINION and will NOT let FACTS (as they currently stand) get in the way of it!
Those of us who work for QF are TELLING you what the latest state of play is - including what was said by the QF CEO in a meeting with QF pilots held on TUESDAY this week!! His comments reflected the comments of the President of AIPA as witnessed by ME at the AGM in Novemeber!! If you can let all of these FACTS stand in the way of your OPINION, your posts can only be considered a waste of time by someone who is obviously biased against QF!!!!
BB just read your post.
Mate you must be kidding!!! Do you seriously think that Impulse pilots should get the first crack at AA when QF has type-endorsed mainline pilots who have been a part of QF for years (unlike the absorbed Impulse guys)!!! [ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Three Bars ]
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Three Bars ]
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I do not believe Qantas will use their current mainline personel to crew AA.The whole purpose of AA was based around a cost saving model.How do they possibly get the current crew to accept a reduction in pay and conditions to a level that they're obviously seeking.
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Loco's Smoko try Waste Gate's post - he explains exactly how costs can be reduced with normal Qantas pilots flying the aircraft. With the same pilot body crewing the aircraft there are cost savings in areas like recruiting, training, and crew communication that would not be achieved with a seperate pilot body.
Sure pilots will be recruited for the new operation - in much the same way pilots are being taken now in anticipation of a whole bunch of new 737s. If AA comes up short, then maybe there'll be a temporary contract arrangement like the AN guys previously mentioned by Keg.
The people who attend Company briefings about AA crew probably know what the deal is going to be... There seems to be a lot of speculation from other sources that probably isn't as accurate.
Lancer
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: *Lancer* ]
Sure pilots will be recruited for the new operation - in much the same way pilots are being taken now in anticipation of a whole bunch of new 737s. If AA comes up short, then maybe there'll be a temporary contract arrangement like the AN guys previously mentioned by Keg.
The people who attend Company briefings about AA crew probably know what the deal is going to be... There seems to be a lot of speculation from other sources that probably isn't as accurate.
Lancer
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: *Lancer* ]
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Sorry BB - misread the context of your last post. I'm sure that the Impulse drivers would have loved to have been absorbed into the QF mainline system (and probably some of our guys wouldn't have minded a drive of the 717). But with EBAs, AA, September 11th, introduction of A330s, reduction of Classic fleet etc etc that AIPA couldn't even look at it if they wanted to.
LOCO - the crew savings could be achieved by the reduction of cabin crew members (which have already been discussed) and indiredct cost savings (such as home transport entitlements etc). Training up a whole new pilot workforce though would be very expensive - remember that it will only kick-off in September next year.
LOCO - the crew savings could be achieved by the reduction of cabin crew members (which have already been discussed) and indiredct cost savings (such as home transport entitlements etc). Training up a whole new pilot workforce though would be very expensive - remember that it will only kick-off in September next year.
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Remember also that flight crew costs are a very small proportion of total operating costs. At the same meeting it was conceded that current QF 767 crew are pretty productive by world standards - I have heard that comment on numerous occasions - whereas QF cabin crew are expensive (big hint).
When you consider that one particular QF baggage handler earned $113K last year it becomes obvious that there are plenty of ways to trim costs without necessarily taking away from flight crew.
When you consider that one particular QF baggage handler earned $113K last year it becomes obvious that there are plenty of ways to trim costs without necessarily taking away from flight crew.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Just to repeat myself, hopefully for the benefit of ALL Australian pilots:
IMHO, it is in the QANTAS (and ALL other) pilots' BEST interests to make sure that ONLY THEY fill ALL slots with any new QF start-up.
Accept the downgraded conditions initially, but stay inside (that was our mistake in THAT year - when we let ourselves get outside the system), and fight for an improvement after the dust has settled.
IMHO, it is in the QANTAS (and ALL other) pilots' BEST interests to make sure that ONLY THEY fill ALL slots with any new QF start-up.
Accept the downgraded conditions initially, but stay inside (that was our mistake in THAT year - when we let ourselves get outside the system), and fight for an improvement after the dust has settled.
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Keg does seem to have a good knowledge of the present climate and so I'm inclined to prefer his opinion over others (it sort of tallies with my intel as well). But I will agree with MAMMAN about the value of Proplever's post. I've noticed his insightful invective on many other threads and I genuinely feel that his opinions may or may not be (a direct allegation was never made, your honour!) the most misinformed, irrelevant and ignorant ones on PPRUNE at the moment. I wonder if they're a true reflection on the nature of their author?
P.S - Woomera. This opinion is intended to be constructive but please bear in mind that Proplever had no compunction in labelling Impulse pilots as "Chimpanzees" and Cabin Crew as "Gibbons". For all I know they might well be, but if this bloke is going to run around like a child insulting people he obviously hasn't taken the time to get to know (or, perhaps, is bitter towards because he couldn't get a job there?) then he should be prepared to get as good as he gives.
Fair call?
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 2daddies ]
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 2daddies ]
P.S - Woomera. This opinion is intended to be constructive but please bear in mind that Proplever had no compunction in labelling Impulse pilots as "Chimpanzees" and Cabin Crew as "Gibbons". For all I know they might well be, but if this bloke is going to run around like a child insulting people he obviously hasn't taken the time to get to know (or, perhaps, is bitter towards because he couldn't get a job there?) then he should be prepared to get as good as he gives.
Fair call?
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 2daddies ]
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 2daddies ]
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2 daddies
Thank you for your observation.
I am the first to admit to being fallible.
Scanning the posts regularly, sometimes three times a day, does take some time and it is possible and I do sometimes miss things or get it backwards.
I try very hard not to "get involved" with the thread topic other than looking for legal problems, eye gouging and other playful D & G pursuits.
There is always a bit of cut and thrust as you would expect amongst the intelligent people you must all be to get to where you are, wherever that is.
I went back and had a look and quite honestly did not make that connection either in the pejorative sense or with Impulse.
Perhaps I'm a bit slow.
But geting back to the cut and thrust bit, whilst I scan through the posts I really only have time to notice the ones that, to me, "stick out", in that they are wildly off topic or go for the man with a bit of gouging.
Sooner or later a member "sticks out" and as I have said before, if it is very occasional I let it ride, but when it becomes serial or I think unwarranted I have to make a call.
Let me assure you that I do not shoot first and ask questions after, I do do a bit of research on length of membership, number of posts and somtimes a quick review of previous posts by the "sticker outer".
I may even receive emails during the course of the research.
But at the end of the day I have to make a call.
If there is any doubt I will move the whole thread to admin for wiser heads than I to assess. It is not unknown for it to be returned.
All in the manner of keeping the peace and the forum up and running.
I still haven't perfected walking on water, Gough says I still have some way to go yet and Peter Hollingworth has yelled at me twice now for making so much noise about it.
Thank you for your observation.
I am the first to admit to being fallible.
Scanning the posts regularly, sometimes three times a day, does take some time and it is possible and I do sometimes miss things or get it backwards.
I try very hard not to "get involved" with the thread topic other than looking for legal problems, eye gouging and other playful D & G pursuits.
There is always a bit of cut and thrust as you would expect amongst the intelligent people you must all be to get to where you are, wherever that is.
I went back and had a look and quite honestly did not make that connection either in the pejorative sense or with Impulse.
Perhaps I'm a bit slow.
But geting back to the cut and thrust bit, whilst I scan through the posts I really only have time to notice the ones that, to me, "stick out", in that they are wildly off topic or go for the man with a bit of gouging.
Sooner or later a member "sticks out" and as I have said before, if it is very occasional I let it ride, but when it becomes serial or I think unwarranted I have to make a call.
Let me assure you that I do not shoot first and ask questions after, I do do a bit of research on length of membership, number of posts and somtimes a quick review of previous posts by the "sticker outer".
I may even receive emails during the course of the research.
But at the end of the day I have to make a call.
If there is any doubt I will move the whole thread to admin for wiser heads than I to assess. It is not unknown for it to be returned.
All in the manner of keeping the peace and the forum up and running.
I still haven't perfected walking on water, Gough says I still have some way to go yet and Peter Hollingworth has yelled at me twice now for making so much noise about it.
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Hello 2 Daddies. Just a little humour there in my last post. Guess you missed it. No I don't truly believe Impulse are staffed by apes. No apologies. Besides, apes would earn more.
But have a re-read of your post, and by denigrating what I have to say, you are adding a little "invective" of your own.
Now have a think about this. Many on this forum enjoy insulting and denigrating the organisation that I am a part of, and I take it in my stride. But it seems that when a little is given back - then posts like yours and Mamman's appear.
This is a rumour network, and it is all in fun. It is tongue in cheek, rough and tumble, and yes you do sometimes get muddy. Don't let it concern you. So have fun here on PPrune, don't get too sexed up about the jokes that are thrown back and forward, don't lose any sleep, and most importantly...
Have a nice day!!
But have a re-read of your post, and by denigrating what I have to say, you are adding a little "invective" of your own.
Now have a think about this. Many on this forum enjoy insulting and denigrating the organisation that I am a part of, and I take it in my stride. But it seems that when a little is given back - then posts like yours and Mamman's appear.
This is a rumour network, and it is all in fun. It is tongue in cheek, rough and tumble, and yes you do sometimes get muddy. Don't let it concern you. So have fun here on PPrune, don't get too sexed up about the jokes that are thrown back and forward, don't lose any sleep, and most importantly...
Have a nice day!!
