more TESNA tap dancing?
Whispering "T" Jet
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more TESNA tap dancing?
Ansett buyers want a discount. .By IAN ROYALL, aviation reporter. .20feb02
TYCOONS Lindsay Fox and Solomon Lew are seeking to drive down the price they pay for Ansett by up to 10 per cent, banking sources say.
The discount -- believed to be about $27 million -- would further erode the meagre 5c in the dollar promised last month to unsecured creditors. . .The Fox-Lew Tesna syndicate is believed to be pushing for a lower figure because the Ansett brand has been devalued, and that goodwill and public confidence was falling.
But one source said Tesna has been told "a deal is a deal" by representatives of the administrators, and any lack of confidence in the airline results from Tesna delaying the sale.
Tesna signed a sale contract with the administrators, Mark Mentha and Mark Korda, on November 8, agreeing to pay $270 million cash for the airline.
Tesna has already reduced the amount of staff entitlements it would assume. Cutting staff levels from 4000 to 3000 employees meant it would take over $183 million in entitlement liabilities, instead of $244 million.
The administrators have been running Ansett on a limited-service basis since September 29, hoping to maintain the value of the carrier by selling it as a going concern.
In the October-December period, the airline operational losses incurred by the administrators were estimated at $15 million to $20 million.
But during February those losses have ballooned to at least $6 million a week.
It is also believed a settlement date to complete the Tesna sale was to have been set on Monday night, in time for yesterday's Federal Court hearing.
But no date was set.
The hearing was adjourned and lawyers said legal documentation was incomplete.
Outside court, Mr Korda said the sale was "in the home stretch" and the February 28 deadline was still in place.
No changes have been made to the sale price, he said.
A Tesna spokesman was unavailable for comment last night.
. .My request to Fox & Lew
let's get the show on the road and put everybody out of their misery!!!
TYCOONS Lindsay Fox and Solomon Lew are seeking to drive down the price they pay for Ansett by up to 10 per cent, banking sources say.
The discount -- believed to be about $27 million -- would further erode the meagre 5c in the dollar promised last month to unsecured creditors. . .The Fox-Lew Tesna syndicate is believed to be pushing for a lower figure because the Ansett brand has been devalued, and that goodwill and public confidence was falling.
But one source said Tesna has been told "a deal is a deal" by representatives of the administrators, and any lack of confidence in the airline results from Tesna delaying the sale.
Tesna signed a sale contract with the administrators, Mark Mentha and Mark Korda, on November 8, agreeing to pay $270 million cash for the airline.
Tesna has already reduced the amount of staff entitlements it would assume. Cutting staff levels from 4000 to 3000 employees meant it would take over $183 million in entitlement liabilities, instead of $244 million.
The administrators have been running Ansett on a limited-service basis since September 29, hoping to maintain the value of the carrier by selling it as a going concern.
In the October-December period, the airline operational losses incurred by the administrators were estimated at $15 million to $20 million.
But during February those losses have ballooned to at least $6 million a week.
It is also believed a settlement date to complete the Tesna sale was to have been set on Monday night, in time for yesterday's Federal Court hearing.
But no date was set.
The hearing was adjourned and lawyers said legal documentation was incomplete.
Outside court, Mr Korda said the sale was "in the home stretch" and the February 28 deadline was still in place.
No changes have been made to the sale price, he said.
A Tesna spokesman was unavailable for comment last night.
. .My request to Fox & Lew
let's get the show on the road and put everybody out of their misery!!!
Nunc est bibendum
Geez, what a hide. Through their own actions (or inactions) whether deliberate or not they have damaged the airline they want to own. Now they want a discount because of it.
This could be just brinksmanship or gamesmanship by FLEW but could it also be tight for the cash to pay for it anyway??
Anyway, looks like AN employees are caught between a rock and a couple of 'hard cases'- with apologies to Sean Connery and the screen writers of the movie 'The Rock'.
This could be just brinksmanship or gamesmanship by FLEW but could it also be tight for the cash to pay for it anyway??
Anyway, looks like AN employees are caught between a rock and a couple of 'hard cases'- with apologies to Sean Connery and the screen writers of the movie 'The Rock'.
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This mob will never get off the ground.
I feel sorry for the loyal staff who have lived the past 5 months in hope. The next to suffer will be the travelling public of Australia.
I am going to buy another 10,000 QAN shares and take a punt on the dividends being able to cover the cost of ticket from MEL to SYD every year to see the folks!
I feel sorry for the loyal staff who have lived the past 5 months in hope. The next to suffer will be the travelling public of Australia.
I am going to buy another 10,000 QAN shares and take a punt on the dividends being able to cover the cost of ticket from MEL to SYD every year to see the folks!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Correct, Keg! It now appears that FLEW are trying to back-peddle on the deal - the dramatic increase in loss of revenue from the beginning of February MUST be a big concern for them no doubt - and it's similarly obvious that the M&M's are refraining from saying anything too strongly worded wrt TESNA(probably until AFTER the deal has gone through, anway!). . .All of this does NOT give the public much faith in Ansett's medium to long-term future - IF it does reach the launch pad, hence the reluctance to purchase tickets from an airline that could quite perceivably cease trading altogether on February 28!!
Post Feb. 28 - which EVER way it goes - I believe we might witness some "interesting" legal encounters between Andersons and FLEW.
However it is the Ansett employees - post and current - who have been played (by the ACTU + FLEW) as the expendable pawns in this game!!
Post Feb. 28 - which EVER way it goes - I believe we might witness some "interesting" legal encounters between Andersons and FLEW.
However it is the Ansett employees - post and current - who have been played (by the ACTU + FLEW) as the expendable pawns in this game!!
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As business men, I find FLEW particularly obtuse. It must be obvious to even them that, had they got their respective acts together and bought the company, instad of a***ng around playing with people's lives and incomes, public confidence would not have been dropping to the point where they see the possibility of paying too much. Or, in my naivety, could this have been the intention in the first place? Nah, surely they couldn't be that underhanded, could they?? <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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Whiskery and Kap M,
Its ok guys. The new Ansett is a different company entirely from the one that screwed you over. You won, Ansett lost. Your ill feelings towards Ansett are no longer applicable as they no longer exist. Time to relax, chill out and go and air your decade old frustrations on another forum. The war is over.
Its ok guys. The new Ansett is a different company entirely from the one that screwed you over. You won, Ansett lost. Your ill feelings towards Ansett are no longer applicable as they no longer exist. Time to relax, chill out and go and air your decade old frustrations on another forum. The war is over.
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Average load factors today are above 80%, some flights are 100%. AN12 went out this morning with 139 out of 144 seats full, mainly suits. Not bad for an airline still in administration.
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Whiskery, you go out and buy another 10000 QAN shares. I'll be putting my money on the new AN. With the new management and the best of the old staff operating A320's this 'mob' will get a significent market share from QF. The public will back the new AN. QF share prices fell with the announcement that the SY airport deal was finalised, they will plunge when the new AN gets back into the air.
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Dont count your chickens Snakeman, doesnt pay to be too smug this early. So AN will only lose $5MILL this week. Great Result. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: eisle s ]</p>
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: eisle s ]</p>
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Kaptin, Whiskery and others,
It does no one any good for people such as yourselves to continue denigrating the new entity.
Contain your anger and vitriol to the old Ansett -that is now dead and buried (which has obviously pleased you lot immensely).
A suggestion: - Why don't you start up another 89 forum so that you can all get together and rehash all the tawdry details over and over (yawn) again.
Have a nice day.
It does no one any good for people such as yourselves to continue denigrating the new entity.
Contain your anger and vitriol to the old Ansett -that is now dead and buried (which has obviously pleased you lot immensely).
A suggestion: - Why don't you start up another 89 forum so that you can all get together and rehash all the tawdry details over and over (yawn) again.
Have a nice day.
Nunc est bibendum
Geez Acturarius, being a little touchy aren't we?
Whilst the Kap can be somewhat strident in his comments at times, there is nothing on his post in this thread that is either angry or vitriolic.
Perhaps people asking sensible questions and hypothesising is what scares you!!
Get up, don't get up. Either way, you could hardly argue that FLEW's performance to date inspires confidence. Again, they are playing a high stakes game of brinksmanship or are incompetent. In reality, which would you prefer?!?!?!?!
Whilst the Kap can be somewhat strident in his comments at times, there is nothing on his post in this thread that is either angry or vitriolic.
Perhaps people asking sensible questions and hypothesising is what scares you!!
Get up, don't get up. Either way, you could hardly argue that FLEW's performance to date inspires confidence. Again, they are playing a high stakes game of brinksmanship or are incompetent. In reality, which would you prefer?!?!?!?!
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keg,
If only the following was true:
"Perhaps people asking sensible questions...."
Let me assure you nothing Kap and the generationally removed "89 team" says scares me in any way, shape or form!!
If only the following was true:
"Perhaps people asking sensible questions...."
Let me assure you nothing Kap and the generationally removed "89 team" says scares me in any way, shape or form!!
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BB. .Load factors are worth zilch it's the bottom line that counts.
Which begs the question: Does 139 suits x $77.00 =. .profit? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[quote] Not bad for an airline still in administration. <hr></blockquote>
I can give you six million reasons why some people may beg to differ. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Miss Behaviour ]</p>
Which begs the question: Does 139 suits x $77.00 =. .profit? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[quote] Not bad for an airline still in administration. <hr></blockquote>
I can give you six million reasons why some people may beg to differ. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Miss Behaviour ]</p>
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Sorry guys but "Whiskery" & "Kaptin M" are right I'd say.
I'm a betting man and my "book" at the moment is 5 to 4 against getting up.
"BETTER TO STAY ON THE DECK THAN CRASH AND BURN"
By the way "Oicur 12" the war will never be over until all the remnants are dead and buried.
I'm a betting man and my "book" at the moment is 5 to 4 against getting up.
"BETTER TO STAY ON THE DECK THAN CRASH AND BURN"
By the way "Oicur 12" the war will never be over until all the remnants are dead and buried.
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Arctaurus - my opinion about Ansett not getting up has nothing to do with '89. It is based on my observations that I published on another thread and reproduce here for your perusal below.
IMHO it is you who should sit back, take a couple of deep breaths and smell the coffee.
[quote]What have Fox & Lew done to show they are really interested in buying Ansett? [apart from no money up front]. .They have a MOU with Airbus for 30 aircraft - so what? [no money up front]
They have an agreement "in principle" for terminal space in Sydney - so what? [no money up front]
They were given the all clear to purchase the airline on the 1st February - nothing has happened. [no money up front]
Do Fox & Lew really want Ansett or did they back the wrong horse in the federal election? You see, nothing so far has indicated to me, that they want to spend one single $ of their own money to get Ansett back in the air.
I think the reality has also hit home that they will not receive any credit when operations start. It will be a cash only basis and who can blame new creditors? Refuelling,catering,cleaning services will ALL require cash up front. BIG ask for a fledgling airline. Mind you, they did it to Compass,[much money up front] so welcome aboard FLEW !
Finally, after bearing his ass in a symbolic gesture as to what Ansett was going to do to Virgin - Fox now has to eat humble pie, as he grovels to Sir Richard to help them get started!
Everything ,thus far, has been done with mirrors and a bit of very poor car salesmen rhetoric from the two Marks and the help from a couple of union stooges! I can't see them getting up IMHO! [without some money up front!]
<hr></blockquote>
Keep the faith:]
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Whiskery ]</p>
IMHO it is you who should sit back, take a couple of deep breaths and smell the coffee.
[quote]What have Fox & Lew done to show they are really interested in buying Ansett? [apart from no money up front]. .They have a MOU with Airbus for 30 aircraft - so what? [no money up front]
They have an agreement "in principle" for terminal space in Sydney - so what? [no money up front]
They were given the all clear to purchase the airline on the 1st February - nothing has happened. [no money up front]
Do Fox & Lew really want Ansett or did they back the wrong horse in the federal election? You see, nothing so far has indicated to me, that they want to spend one single $ of their own money to get Ansett back in the air.
I think the reality has also hit home that they will not receive any credit when operations start. It will be a cash only basis and who can blame new creditors? Refuelling,catering,cleaning services will ALL require cash up front. BIG ask for a fledgling airline. Mind you, they did it to Compass,[much money up front] so welcome aboard FLEW !
Finally, after bearing his ass in a symbolic gesture as to what Ansett was going to do to Virgin - Fox now has to eat humble pie, as he grovels to Sir Richard to help them get started!
Everything ,thus far, has been done with mirrors and a bit of very poor car salesmen rhetoric from the two Marks and the help from a couple of union stooges! I can't see them getting up IMHO! [without some money up front!]
<hr></blockquote>
Keep the faith:]
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Whiskery ]</p>
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Only a small number of the seats go at that rate, that is unless you believe Virgin are selling every seat for $1, I certainly do'nt. Ansett is actually breaking even at the moment. I say again, not bad for an airline in administration!
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BB you must know something that the rest of the country doesn't, or perhaps youre looking through rose coloured glasses as thick as coke bottles. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Boeing Belly
Are you a mate of the administrators. How else can you know what the people are paying.. .I am in the same boat as you wondering what is going to happen as I work for the other mob in talks with Tesna.. .Our loads are extremely good for February, in fact almost every plane full every day. It must be QF missing out.. .I hope for my sake and yours that AN gets back up and the two work together as QF will be ruthless when they face competition against their market which AN is targeting.. .You have to admit that this should have been wrapped up ages ago and why talk to VB now. If my boss was doing this I would be worried.. .Good luck, I hope we will be battling together soon as I have a lot of good mates at AN Sydney.
Are you a mate of the administrators. How else can you know what the people are paying.. .I am in the same boat as you wondering what is going to happen as I work for the other mob in talks with Tesna.. .Our loads are extremely good for February, in fact almost every plane full every day. It must be QF missing out.. .I hope for my sake and yours that AN gets back up and the two work together as QF will be ruthless when they face competition against their market which AN is targeting.. .You have to admit that this should have been wrapped up ages ago and why talk to VB now. If my boss was doing this I would be worried.. .Good luck, I hope we will be battling together soon as I have a lot of good mates at AN Sydney.
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How do I know?, I've got several friends who are CSO's. When a customer checks in at the gate lounge they are given an E-Ticket that comes out of the printer behind the counter, the same printers where the flight plans come out of. On these pieces of paper are printed all relevent charges, including taxes. My mate says that a high percentage of them are higher value tickets.