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It'll be interesting to see what this does pricewise.
Dell don't need to licence M$ Vista and install a free Linix distro instead = cost reduction that can be passed on to the customer in part or in full.
Dell can't bundle loads of "limited trial period" products 'cos linux users don't need / want this rubbish = revenue reduction that will be passed on also?
RC
Dell don't need to licence M$ Vista and install a free Linix distro instead = cost reduction that can be passed on to the customer in part or in full.
Dell can't bundle loads of "limited trial period" products 'cos linux users don't need / want this rubbish = revenue reduction that will be passed on also?
RC
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Dell can do this as they control the hardware and have the resources to make it 'just work'. Good for them, competition is always good, and I am sure it will put pressure on microsoft to bring down the licence fee that Dell pays.
I guess it all boils down to how much Dell pays for their windows licence, and how much of the savings they want to pass onto their customers, and how much to their shareholders.
I am sure Dell will use this as an opportunity to heavily brand the desktop, try and lock you into their services, and make more money off you in an innovative way. For Dell are just as bad as MS, Oracle, Sun and the rest of them. They all want to 'own' your desktop experience and make it difficult for you to use anybody elses software.
Plastic PPRuNer
Good advice there from slim_slag
Microsoft will surely attempt to punish Dell in some way for this move. They certainly have a long history of gutting businesses that stray from the party-line. These companies work on razor-thin margins and even a few percentage points increase in the fee that Dell pays for its OEM Windows license could really hurt.
"I am sure Dell will use this as an opportunity to heavily brand the desktop, try and lock you into their services, and make more money off you in an innovative way. For Dell are just as bad as MS, Oracle, Sun and the rest of them. They all want to 'own' your desktop experience and make it difficult for you to use anybody elses software."
A very astute observation. Happily even GPLv2 makes this quite difficult. Of course Dell plans to make money from this and the GPL does not forbid profit at all - it only blocks certain kinds of exploitative behaviour.
Personally I'm not comfortable with the FSF's (Free Software Foundation) political stance [I'm more of an OSS guy myself] and thought that the proposed GPLv3 was ludicrously (and fatally) business hostile. The most recent GPLv3 draft seems to have eased off a bit and hopefully will allow the industry to successfully commoditise Linux on the desktop (as Dell hopes to do) while blocking an effectively proprietary Dell Linux.
While I'm a firm supporter of FOSS (I contribute financially and on various groups) and in particular of open standards (like ODF) I'm not that fussed by proprietary drivers like nVidia and I will buy and use proprietary Linux apps if they work better for me than the FOSS equivalents. Sometimes FOSS coders need a kick up the arse too!
Mac
Microsoft will surely attempt to punish Dell in some way for this move. They certainly have a long history of gutting businesses that stray from the party-line. These companies work on razor-thin margins and even a few percentage points increase in the fee that Dell pays for its OEM Windows license could really hurt.
"I am sure Dell will use this as an opportunity to heavily brand the desktop, try and lock you into their services, and make more money off you in an innovative way. For Dell are just as bad as MS, Oracle, Sun and the rest of them. They all want to 'own' your desktop experience and make it difficult for you to use anybody elses software."
A very astute observation. Happily even GPLv2 makes this quite difficult. Of course Dell plans to make money from this and the GPL does not forbid profit at all - it only blocks certain kinds of exploitative behaviour.
Personally I'm not comfortable with the FSF's (Free Software Foundation) political stance [I'm more of an OSS guy myself] and thought that the proposed GPLv3 was ludicrously (and fatally) business hostile. The most recent GPLv3 draft seems to have eased off a bit and hopefully will allow the industry to successfully commoditise Linux on the desktop (as Dell hopes to do) while blocking an effectively proprietary Dell Linux.
While I'm a firm supporter of FOSS (I contribute financially and on various groups) and in particular of open standards (like ODF) I'm not that fussed by proprietary drivers like nVidia and I will buy and use proprietary Linux apps if they work better for me than the FOSS equivalents. Sometimes FOSS coders need a kick up the arse too!
Mac
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
effectively proprietary Dell Linux
On a different note, I recently tried an experiment to see if I could configure a laptop for work with Linux (Kbuntu) as the OS. Most things I could set up to work (after a fashion), but I was completely stopped by the VPN solution. Yes, I could get a VPN client, but the gateway enforces software compliance, and BlackIce is not available for Linux - yet (I know, it's in Beta, but a very limited Beta).
And while many of our corporate apps have been developed for browser-based access, they only work properly with IE6, not Firefox etc.
Still, it's about 80% there!
Plastic PPRuNer
"I have had the feeling that Linux has been teetering on the brink of the same problem that beset UNIX last century, when several proprietary flavours of UNIX evolved, making development, portability and interoperability a real pain."
Linux can't become proprietary, the GPL blocks this absolutely. Dell cannot produce a proprietary Linux. What they MAY do is release binary (non-open-source drivers) to optimise Linux on their hardware. These would be unacceptable to hard-line open-sourcers but of little consequence to Joe User. They might also tweak the kernel to better cooperate with their drivers, but under the GPL any changes would have to be released as source code. The big Linux houses usually tweak the kernel to work better with their releases and this is perfectly legit so long as the changes are freely released and documented.
The sort of proprietisation that nearly killed UNIX just can't happen.
By its very nature GNU/Linux is a do-your-own-thing animal, but most coders/vendors are coming, often reluctantly, to the realisation that working towards a fixed set of Linux standards is the only way to go.
The Linux Foundation set up the Linux Standard Base organisation - http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/LSB - to encourage vendors to follow their guidelines.
"The Linux Standard Base delivers interoperability between applications and the Linux operating system. Currently all major distributions comply with the LSB and many major application vendors, like MySQL, RealNetworks and SAP, are certifying. The LSB offers a cost-effective way for application vendors to target multiple Linux distributions while building only one software package. For end-users, the LSB and its mark of interoperability preserves choice by allowing them to select the applications and distributions they want while avoiding vendor lock-in. LSB certification of distributions results in more applications being ported to Linux and ensures that distribution vendors are compatible with those applications. In short, the LSB ensures Linux does not fragment."
Actually mainstream Linux is quite rapidly evolving towards these standards.
Mac
Linux can't become proprietary, the GPL blocks this absolutely. Dell cannot produce a proprietary Linux. What they MAY do is release binary (non-open-source drivers) to optimise Linux on their hardware. These would be unacceptable to hard-line open-sourcers but of little consequence to Joe User. They might also tweak the kernel to better cooperate with their drivers, but under the GPL any changes would have to be released as source code. The big Linux houses usually tweak the kernel to work better with their releases and this is perfectly legit so long as the changes are freely released and documented.
The sort of proprietisation that nearly killed UNIX just can't happen.
By its very nature GNU/Linux is a do-your-own-thing animal, but most coders/vendors are coming, often reluctantly, to the realisation that working towards a fixed set of Linux standards is the only way to go.
The Linux Foundation set up the Linux Standard Base organisation - http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/LSB - to encourage vendors to follow their guidelines.
"The Linux Standard Base delivers interoperability between applications and the Linux operating system. Currently all major distributions comply with the LSB and many major application vendors, like MySQL, RealNetworks and SAP, are certifying. The LSB offers a cost-effective way for application vendors to target multiple Linux distributions while building only one software package. For end-users, the LSB and its mark of interoperability preserves choice by allowing them to select the applications and distributions they want while avoiding vendor lock-in. LSB certification of distributions results in more applications being ported to Linux and ensures that distribution vendors are compatible with those applications. In short, the LSB ensures Linux does not fragment."
Actually mainstream Linux is quite rapidly evolving towards these standards.
Mac
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With MS ending support for Win2000, a place where I sometimes work is replacing the machines that run Win2000. They are all pretty old. There is a blanket contract with Dell. There are a number of hardware choices and one may choose either WinXP or Linux as the operating system.
The establishment forbids the use of VISTA on any machine connected to the in-house network for the time being. They expect to approve of VISTA "someday" after they have verified that the main in-house applications can be made to work correctly with it.
The establishment forbids the use of VISTA on any machine connected to the in-house network for the time being. They expect to approve of VISTA "someday" after they have verified that the main in-house applications can be made to work correctly with it.
Plastic PPRuNer
Stable NTFS read/write for Linux!
With the release of ntfs-3g v1.328 (March 28, 2007) Linux finally has stable read/write support for the Windows native NTFS filesystem. ntfs-3g has been extensively tested and there was no file corruption or inconsistencies. Most POSIX file system operations are supported, with the exception of full file ownership and access right support.
ntfs-3g is 20-50x faster than the commercial Paragon NTFS driver. Curiously, Captive NTFS, which uses the native Windows NTFS drivers, fails all benchmarks with file loss.
ntfs-3g is still unoptimised and further speed increases are likely. It does not yet support compressed or encrypted files, but that is on the way.
Binary builds are available for most ofthe mainline distros or you can build it yourself.
Main site - http://www.ntfs-3g.org/
Test details at http://www.ntfs-3g.org/quality.html#testmethods
FAQ at - http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#questions
Way to go guys!
Mac
ntfs-3g is 20-50x faster than the commercial Paragon NTFS driver. Curiously, Captive NTFS, which uses the native Windows NTFS drivers, fails all benchmarks with file loss.
ntfs-3g is still unoptimised and further speed increases are likely. It does not yet support compressed or encrypted files, but that is on the way.
Binary builds are available for most ofthe mainline distros or you can build it yourself.
Main site - http://www.ntfs-3g.org/
Test details at http://www.ntfs-3g.org/quality.html#testmethods
FAQ at - http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#questions
Way to go guys!
Mac
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Hi eveyone,
I just did a search on this and found that Dell has tried this before and previously took LINUX PCs off sale in 2001 becuase of low sales.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/pt...idg/index.html
I'd love to use Linux, out of a bloody minded desire to break my dependance on Windows. But of course it worries me all the same, do you think mainstream software will work seamlessly with it or are there issues that need to be taken into account?
Also I've always wondered how much PC makers pay Microsoft for their bulk purchases of Windows, seeing as you can pick up a PC these days for £200 how much of this do you think is the Windows licence?
Cheers,
MrSurrey
I just did a search on this and found that Dell has tried this before and previously took LINUX PCs off sale in 2001 becuase of low sales.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/pt...idg/index.html
I'd love to use Linux, out of a bloody minded desire to break my dependance on Windows. But of course it worries me all the same, do you think mainstream software will work seamlessly with it or are there issues that need to be taken into account?
Also I've always wondered how much PC makers pay Microsoft for their bulk purchases of Windows, seeing as you can pick up a PC these days for £200 how much of this do you think is the Windows licence?
Cheers,
MrSurrey
Plastic PPRuNer
Linux was a VERY different beast in 2001. I spent days getting Debian up and sort of working! I remember Dell's dabble and I'm not surprised they let it slide. Modern mainstream Linuxes are a world away from what it was then.
Best way to try it is to get hold of a live CD (which you can boot from), try it and see what you think. A live CD runs off the CD itself, doesn't touch you current HDD and although its pretty slow (as you would expect) will give you an idea of what its like and how it picks up your hardware.
"....do you think mainstream software will work seamlessly with it or are there issues that need to be taken into account?"
Windows software doesn't work natively with Linux - it's a completely different operating system. There ARE ways to get an increasing number of Windows applications to run but its still a bit of a fiddle. Linux comes with its own big bunch of applications for free to do pretty much anything you want (burn CDs, play music, email, office suite etc etc) and these are generally very compatible with the files/document formats that Windows uses.
Compatibility, especially for MSOffice documents, isn't perfect (complex documents often display differently and macros may fail), but this is hardly Linux' fault - Microsoft keeps their file/document formats a big secret to prevent people switching and to force you to go on using MS. But considering that everything is reverse engineered, the compatibility is remarkably good (and you can save in .doc/.ppt/etc. format so that Windows users can use your documents).
"Also I've always wondered how much PC makers pay Microsoft for their bulk purchases of Windows, seeing as you can pick up a PC these days for £200 how much of this do you think is the Windows licence?"
PC makers actually don't pay MS that much - FAR less than the cost of buying Windows in a shop. Still, there are enough of them to make MS very rich! But part of the agreement in their bulk purchase of Windows is a clause that says that all PCs they sell MUST have Windows installed - they're not allowed to sell PCs either with no operating system installed or with another OS. This dodge is one of the ways that MS has maintained its unlawful monopoly on operating systems and its stranglehold on the industry.
Linux is, can I say, "different" - modern Linuxes generally install seamlessly and for quite a few folks it just works "out-of-the-box" - for many a bit of tinkering is requires, but the reward for a few days messing around is a fast, flexible, stable OS that is very secure and works well on older hardware too.
Oh, and it's all FREE....
Best way to try it is to get hold of a live CD (which you can boot from), try it and see what you think. A live CD runs off the CD itself, doesn't touch you current HDD and although its pretty slow (as you would expect) will give you an idea of what its like and how it picks up your hardware.
"....do you think mainstream software will work seamlessly with it or are there issues that need to be taken into account?"
Windows software doesn't work natively with Linux - it's a completely different operating system. There ARE ways to get an increasing number of Windows applications to run but its still a bit of a fiddle. Linux comes with its own big bunch of applications for free to do pretty much anything you want (burn CDs, play music, email, office suite etc etc) and these are generally very compatible with the files/document formats that Windows uses.
Compatibility, especially for MSOffice documents, isn't perfect (complex documents often display differently and macros may fail), but this is hardly Linux' fault - Microsoft keeps their file/document formats a big secret to prevent people switching and to force you to go on using MS. But considering that everything is reverse engineered, the compatibility is remarkably good (and you can save in .doc/.ppt/etc. format so that Windows users can use your documents).
"Also I've always wondered how much PC makers pay Microsoft for their bulk purchases of Windows, seeing as you can pick up a PC these days for £200 how much of this do you think is the Windows licence?"
PC makers actually don't pay MS that much - FAR less than the cost of buying Windows in a shop. Still, there are enough of them to make MS very rich! But part of the agreement in their bulk purchase of Windows is a clause that says that all PCs they sell MUST have Windows installed - they're not allowed to sell PCs either with no operating system installed or with another OS. This dodge is one of the ways that MS has maintained its unlawful monopoly on operating systems and its stranglehold on the industry.
Linux is, can I say, "different" - modern Linuxes generally install seamlessly and for quite a few folks it just works "out-of-the-box" - for many a bit of tinkering is requires, but the reward for a few days messing around is a fast, flexible, stable OS that is very secure and works well on older hardware too.
Oh, and it's all FREE....
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Thanks Mac the Knife,
I think I'll be supporting LINUX the next time I get a computer then, provided I can find a way to run Dreamweaver on it! It's great to see the project gaining momentum and if it can reach critical mass on the PC I guess there's little reason for people to turn back to Microsoft in the future?
Progress
MrSurrey
I think I'll be supporting LINUX the next time I get a computer then, provided I can find a way to run Dreamweaver on it! It's great to see the project gaining momentum and if it can reach critical mass on the PC I guess there's little reason for people to turn back to Microsoft in the future?
Progress
MrSurrey
Plastic PPRuNer
Here you go mrsurrey, Codeweavers, - http://www.codeweavers.com/main/ -who make Crossover Linux ($39), have supported Dreamweaver and Flash since 2003.
http://www.dmxzone.com/ShowDetail.asp?NewsId=5796
http://www.codeweavers.com/site/abou...s/?id=20031027
Not free, unfortunately, but you get the ability to run an awful lot of other Windows apps and games as well.
http://www.dmxzone.com/ShowDetail.asp?NewsId=5796
http://www.codeweavers.com/site/abou...s/?id=20031027
Not free, unfortunately, but you get the ability to run an awful lot of other Windows apps and games as well.
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Problem formatting a Linux HD to Win XP
I've just attempted to re-format a Maxtor HD that once contained a Linux installation. The system comes up with a error when I try to format the now unallocated disk space to either FAT32 or NTFS.
I vaguely remember that it is necessary to do a bit of fiddling with the boot sector to remove some Linux-related infor from the HD's 0(?) sector. However, I don't recall what it is I have to do.
Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
I vaguely remember that it is necessary to do a bit of fiddling with the boot sector to remove some Linux-related infor from the HD's 0(?) sector. However, I don't recall what it is I have to do.
Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
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Try the Micro$oft Support article http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314458
Hope that helps.
RC
How to Remove Linux and Install Windows XP
SUMMARY
This article explains how to remove the Linux operating system from your computer and install Windows XP. This article assumes that Linux is already installed on your computer's hard disk, that Linux native and Linux swap partitions are in use (which are incompatible with Windows XP), and that there is no free space left on the hard disk.
SUMMARY
This article explains how to remove the Linux operating system from your computer and install Windows XP. This article assumes that Linux is already installed on your computer's hard disk, that Linux native and Linux swap partitions are in use (which are incompatible with Windows XP), and that there is no free space left on the hard disk.
RC
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How did you install your Linux distro in the first place? If from a LiveCD, boot with the CD and use the included disk partitioning software (GParted or suchlike) to wipe and reformat to whatever you want.
If you can boot to Konsole, and understand zeroing a disk, you can try this:
[as root]
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda(b) conv=sync,noerror count=x
where x = number of LBAs
Maxtor = 320173056
WDC = 16514064
cylinders * heads * sectors
Of course you'll need the number of LBA's for your own HDD. Google turned it up for me easily, or you can work it out from your BIOS.
Pray what possessseth thou to want XP back?
If you can boot to Konsole, and understand zeroing a disk, you can try this:
[as root]
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda(b) conv=sync,noerror count=x
where x = number of LBAs
Maxtor = 320173056
WDC = 16514064
cylinders * heads * sectors
Of course you'll need the number of LBA's for your own HDD. Google turned it up for me easily, or you can work it out from your BIOS.
Pray what possessseth thou to want XP back?
Linux Options
Right, here goes.
I want to give Linux a shot, but my hard drive space is a bit limited. So I'd prefer to play around with a Live CD version till I get my hands on a new HDD. So far I've heard of Knoppix and something called SLAX. I've also heard that Ubuntu (which seems to be popular) released their latest version (Feisty Fawn??!!) but it doesn't seem to be able to run off the CD directly, at least it does not say so.
So has anyone here tried a Live CD version, and if so which would you recommend?
Note: I'm not going to use it for anything serious - I just want to get my feel of something non-Windows without having to go and buy a Mac. Internet access and ability to handle MS Word and Excel files (OpenOffice, I guess) is all I need.
I want to give Linux a shot, but my hard drive space is a bit limited. So I'd prefer to play around with a Live CD version till I get my hands on a new HDD. So far I've heard of Knoppix and something called SLAX. I've also heard that Ubuntu (which seems to be popular) released their latest version (Feisty Fawn??!!) but it doesn't seem to be able to run off the CD directly, at least it does not say so.
So has anyone here tried a Live CD version, and if so which would you recommend?
Note: I'm not going to use it for anything serious - I just want to get my feel of something non-Windows without having to go and buy a Mac. Internet access and ability to handle MS Word and Excel files (OpenOffice, I guess) is all I need.
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I have used two "Live CD" versions of Linux. One was Knoppix and the other Mepis.
Knoppix and Mepis have very similar sets of included software, as do most Linux distributions. QTpartid, a substitute for Partition Magic, is almost enough reason, in itself, to have a Live CD version of Linux in one's toolbox. It works with both Windows and Linux disk formats.
Mepis is described as a nicer face on Kubuntu (Ubuntu) and I agree that it seems more friendly than Knoppix. I haven't tried Ubuntu nor Kubuntu themselves.
I think you'll find more online info about Knoppix.
I regularly use Open Office with Windows XP and it also comes with most Linux versions.
Knoppix and Mepis have very similar sets of included software, as do most Linux distributions. QTpartid, a substitute for Partition Magic, is almost enough reason, in itself, to have a Live CD version of Linux in one's toolbox. It works with both Windows and Linux disk formats.
Mepis is described as a nicer face on Kubuntu (Ubuntu) and I agree that it seems more friendly than Knoppix. I haven't tried Ubuntu nor Kubuntu themselves.
I think you'll find more online info about Knoppix.
I regularly use Open Office with Windows XP and it also comes with most Linux versions.
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I use Ubuntu and find it to be very good. I very rarely find the need to use the kids Windows PC these days - have everything I need (including Open Office, Firefox browser and Thunderbird eMail) on my Ubuntu PC.
When I first installed Ubuntu they were on the "Dapper Drake" release which definitely came as a Live CD. I'm on "Edgy Edge" now and will upgrade to "Feisty Fawn" over the weekend. Not sure whether they've dropped the Live CD now - but if you burn it to a CD and reboot it will quickly become clear!
RC
When I first installed Ubuntu they were on the "Dapper Drake" release which definitely came as a Live CD. I'm on "Edgy Edge" now and will upgrade to "Feisty Fawn" over the weekend. Not sure whether they've dropped the Live CD now - but if you burn it to a CD and reboot it will quickly become clear!
RC