Language in the sky
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More info on testing
Perhaps this can help
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233246
http://ulc.gov.pl/download/ICAO_LPR/ratingscale.html
Best to all,
PE
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233246
http://ulc.gov.pl/download/ICAO_LPR/ratingscale.html
Best to all,
PE
Freight God
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Gringolandish unfortunately has very little audible resemblance of english. It might be written alike, but everytime I hear it spoken I have trouble following it, especially when distorted by electronics and transmitted by VHF wavelenghts. Adding extraordinary speed to gringolandish does not make it better. I have, interestingly, met an enourmous amount of people in the US who were continously demonstrating their ability to speak extremely clear and understandable english, but somehow these people almost never seem to make it into the professions of pilot and controller.
Using plain, simple, relatively slowly spoken ICAO phraseology might of course cure these problems, but it is much too difficult for 'the natives' as it seems. Far simpler to tell the others to please learn all different slangs of Gringolandish.
English is an official ICAO languague, but gringolandish is NOT! So let us see how many people up north are able to pass the ICAO madatory test.
Using plain, simple, relatively slowly spoken ICAO phraseology might of course cure these problems, but it is much too difficult for 'the natives' as it seems. Far simpler to tell the others to please learn all different slangs of Gringolandish.
English is an official ICAO languague, but gringolandish is NOT! So let us see how many people up north are able to pass the ICAO madatory test.
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Spanish or English - Argentina R/T
Gentlemen -
xxx
Reading all opinions expressed here, it looks like we all speak "level 4 English" or better. Yes, I am for English as our common communication idiom in the skies, but I support the right for nations to use their local language(s) besides English, under certain circumstances. In Argentina, as an example, we recommend use of English and approve the use of Spanish for aviation.
xxx
The Argentina AIP (Aviation Information Publication) informs that the various international airports in Argentina, such as Ezeiza (Buenos Aires), Cordoba, or Rio Gallegos have communications in English, but that for all other airports, Spanish is used, and English language ATC might NOT be available on tower and taxi frequencies. If you go to the other airport (domestic traffic) of Buenos Aires, Aeroparque, there, only Spanish is used at that airport, as it is with most smaller airports in Argentina.
xxx
Also, I would inform you that we have 2 types of R/T licences in Argentina for pilots, one that is restricted to Spanish, the other, (held by all pilots working for air carriers) requires knowledge of English. Expect all VFR traffic to speak Spanish only. Some years ago, I sent a note to the Argentina DGAC secretary, to require an English proficiency test for the issuance of an Argentina ATPL. I understand it will be required soon.
xxx
Many AIPs of other countries do have similar language limitations.
xxx
Interesting to note, that when Air Force One (with USA President Bush, and previously with Clinton) visited Argentina in the past, a team of ATC specialists who were fluent with the English language, were sent to the airports where Air Force One was to operate.
xxx
Hurz - I am also a "worldwide" pilot (remember PanAm by any chance?). Maybe my AR now does not fly as many places as your LH, but I have flown three times to the South Pole and back, on tourist flights, and I report to you that the pinguins there do not "quack" in English... Please inform the LBA...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Reading all opinions expressed here, it looks like we all speak "level 4 English" or better. Yes, I am for English as our common communication idiom in the skies, but I support the right for nations to use their local language(s) besides English, under certain circumstances. In Argentina, as an example, we recommend use of English and approve the use of Spanish for aviation.
xxx
The Argentina AIP (Aviation Information Publication) informs that the various international airports in Argentina, such as Ezeiza (Buenos Aires), Cordoba, or Rio Gallegos have communications in English, but that for all other airports, Spanish is used, and English language ATC might NOT be available on tower and taxi frequencies. If you go to the other airport (domestic traffic) of Buenos Aires, Aeroparque, there, only Spanish is used at that airport, as it is with most smaller airports in Argentina.
xxx
Also, I would inform you that we have 2 types of R/T licences in Argentina for pilots, one that is restricted to Spanish, the other, (held by all pilots working for air carriers) requires knowledge of English. Expect all VFR traffic to speak Spanish only. Some years ago, I sent a note to the Argentina DGAC secretary, to require an English proficiency test for the issuance of an Argentina ATPL. I understand it will be required soon.
xxx
Many AIPs of other countries do have similar language limitations.
xxx
Interesting to note, that when Air Force One (with USA President Bush, and previously with Clinton) visited Argentina in the past, a team of ATC specialists who were fluent with the English language, were sent to the airports where Air Force One was to operate.
xxx
Hurz - I am also a "worldwide" pilot (remember PanAm by any chance?). Maybe my AR now does not fly as many places as your LH, but I have flown three times to the South Pole and back, on tourist flights, and I report to you that the pinguins there do not "quack" in English... Please inform the LBA...
xxx
Happy contrails
Thread Starter
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more info like this please
Hi BelArgUSA,
yes I remember PANAM and yes I was also doing south pole flights for our weathermen from the DLR, but I´m NOT LH. It doesn´pay of any more to fly for a german carrier.
However the rule about EZE is very interesting. That´s the kind of stuff i was looking to hear about.
But imagine you fly into a brazilian international airport, lets say REC and you have to give controls to your F/O since you are the only one o/b able to speak porugese, because the controler has no idea about english except yes and no.....
If you are talking next time to the Argentinian DGAC it might be worth recomending that Argentinia goes the first step to recomend to the other MERCOSUL countries, or even more, to have english as mandantory language at ALL AIRPORTS OF ENTRY (intl arpts) within south america and on certain airways normally used by foreign carriers.
As you see I just joined pprune and I´m impressed about the professional way things are discussed here.
So long HURZ
yes I remember PANAM and yes I was also doing south pole flights for our weathermen from the DLR, but I´m NOT LH. It doesn´pay of any more to fly for a german carrier.
However the rule about EZE is very interesting. That´s the kind of stuff i was looking to hear about.
But imagine you fly into a brazilian international airport, lets say REC and you have to give controls to your F/O since you are the only one o/b able to speak porugese, because the controler has no idea about english except yes and no.....
If you are talking next time to the Argentinian DGAC it might be worth recomending that Argentinia goes the first step to recomend to the other MERCOSUL countries, or even more, to have english as mandantory language at ALL AIRPORTS OF ENTRY (intl arpts) within south america and on certain airways normally used by foreign carriers.
As you see I just joined pprune and I´m impressed about the professional way things are discussed here.
So long HURZ
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English language with JFK
Hola Hurz -
xxx
Have you heard (or seen) about the CNN report about Air China and JFK tower and ground control in "English"... I hope we are better than that in South America. I am for English in aviation communications, but I am liberal to agree to limited use of local languages. Yes, all pilots should be able to speak a proficient level of English, and so should it be with ATC controlers.
xxx
Yes, I realized you recently joined Pprune and its forums, so also welcome you, and look forward to meet you again in our discussions.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Have you heard (or seen) about the CNN report about Air China and JFK tower and ground control in "English"... I hope we are better than that in South America. I am for English in aviation communications, but I am liberal to agree to limited use of local languages. Yes, all pilots should be able to speak a proficient level of English, and so should it be with ATC controlers.
xxx
Yes, I realized you recently joined Pprune and its forums, so also welcome you, and look forward to meet you again in our discussions.
xxx
Happy contrails
Take me downwind
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AIR CHINA 981 - JFK communictaion problems
Dear BelArgUSA,
Please see here...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282308
I agree wholeheartedly with you that you all here have a skilled command of the English language (written at least). The problem unfortunately is everywhere. It is a communication problem more than a language proficiency problem.
I believe that in this incident between the Air China and JFK controller, the controller did not help the situation at all by getting upset and using plain language when standard phraseologies sufficed in some situations. I know there are complicated operations at JFK that require one's full attention, it is possible that these pilots of the Air China were new to JFK. Who knows? The FAA. I spoke with some experts and they assure me we need to hear all of the recording of this transmission before making judgments. The journalists, as usual, made a "mountain out of a mole hill". The Air China pilot in the video was announced as having passed the language test when I have been assured by the testing body that he has not. They ignored the representative's statement regarding the fact that radiotelephony procedures were not followed and they translated the transmission incorrectly. RKO???
The problem in communications is real, what the journalists say is not.
Sorry to have taken this thread off subject but I feel it is a real concern. I am so happy to see your forum talking about the problem, let's work together to fix it.
Best to all,
PE
Please see here...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282308
I agree wholeheartedly with you that you all here have a skilled command of the English language (written at least). The problem unfortunately is everywhere. It is a communication problem more than a language proficiency problem.
I believe that in this incident between the Air China and JFK controller, the controller did not help the situation at all by getting upset and using plain language when standard phraseologies sufficed in some situations. I know there are complicated operations at JFK that require one's full attention, it is possible that these pilots of the Air China were new to JFK. Who knows? The FAA. I spoke with some experts and they assure me we need to hear all of the recording of this transmission before making judgments. The journalists, as usual, made a "mountain out of a mole hill". The Air China pilot in the video was announced as having passed the language test when I have been assured by the testing body that he has not. They ignored the representative's statement regarding the fact that radiotelephony procedures were not followed and they translated the transmission incorrectly. RKO???
The problem in communications is real, what the journalists say is not.
Sorry to have taken this thread off subject but I feel it is a real concern. I am so happy to see your forum talking about the problem, let's work together to fix it.
Best to all,
PE
The Cooler King
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Only a few days ago, I had a discussion with some contacts about the situation in South America.
It would appear that there is a lot of the "head in the sand" behaviour happening.
The only country that I know of in the region who are just about to embark on a training course for their ATCOs is Honduras.
I was asked to go out to Chile a while back but they have decided to hold off for a while until they "see what the others are doing!"
planeenglish - nice to read you - hope all is well on your side of the world!
It would appear that there is a lot of the "head in the sand" behaviour happening.
The only country that I know of in the region who are just about to embark on a training course for their ATCOs is Honduras.
I was asked to go out to Chile a while back but they have decided to hold off for a while until they "see what the others are doing!"
planeenglish - nice to read you - hope all is well on your side of the world!
Take me downwind
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Well Howdy do, Farrell,
Nice to "see" you too.
To defend SA, Peru has the ATC's tested and working hard on meeting the requirements. The person who is incharge is a personal friend and really A1. I know the Brazilain gov is doing something. They even sent their teachers to be trained at the FAA. Argentinian teachers are active in Av. Eng. The CAA's may be burying their heads but the people who work every day in this stuff are trying to do their best. I know the teacher for TAM is making progress. I also know that the teacher from GOL is also top-notch. I also know that COCESNA has been involved.
It's not all of SA but some, better than none don't you all think? The condition here in Italy is just the same, head burying and all, so I figure at least some of them are doing thier job.
Best to all,
PE
Farrell will you be in Cambridge?
Nice to "see" you too.
To defend SA, Peru has the ATC's tested and working hard on meeting the requirements. The person who is incharge is a personal friend and really A1. I know the Brazilain gov is doing something. They even sent their teachers to be trained at the FAA. Argentinian teachers are active in Av. Eng. The CAA's may be burying their heads but the people who work every day in this stuff are trying to do their best. I know the teacher for TAM is making progress. I also know that the teacher from GOL is also top-notch. I also know that COCESNA has been involved.
It's not all of SA but some, better than none don't you all think? The condition here in Italy is just the same, head burying and all, so I figure at least some of them are doing thier job.
Best to all,
PE
Farrell will you be in Cambridge?
Regarding this subject, I came to think of this illustrative little sketch:
"Mayday, mayday, mayday, I am zinking"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zW8oA2AEio
And now that I'm at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ve37gVwxw
"Mayday, mayday, mayday, I am zinking"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zW8oA2AEio
And now that I'm at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ve37gVwxw
Take me downwind
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I do not see what the problem is. I speak all the time in english to the controllers in Aruba, Curacao, Panama, Colombia, etc. Everybody seems to be fit for the challenge, including other airline pilots. As far as my personal experience goes, I find a lot of professionals here in S AM (meaning pilots and controllers) to have a pretty good knowlege of technical english.
Saludos,
AA
Saludos,
AA
