I need some serious help!
 

Hope you all are doing great. Let me give you a quick overview of my experience and situation. I currently hold an Australian Private Pilot Licence with 130 hours of Total Aeronautical Experience. I am planning on continuing my training in Canada with Harvs Air or Victoria Flying Club. Some people tell me it will financially benefit me to continue my training in Australia, but the reason to continue my training in Canada is due to the number of job opportunities and also a Canadian Licence is considered in high regards back home (India, in case I don't get a job in Canada). I have not finished grade 12 and am planning on doing an online high school diploma (adult fast track) in Canada. Considering my situation I can say there are some advantages and some disadvantages with each flight school.

Harvs air: Cons: They are partnered with Providence College that provide a 2 year diploma program in Business Management in Aviation, its a bit too long compared to University of Victorias 9 month diploma program in Business Management in Aviation.
Pros: Have a huge fleet, provide various kinds of courses and provide ATPL training. Read a lot of positive review about it in here (AVCANADA )too

Victoria Flying Club: Cons: Don't provide ATPL training, have only one multi-engine aircraft.
Pros: They have partnered with University of Victoria who provide a Degree in Business Management in Aviation and say that they can accept me even without my grade 12th, ONLY IF I FINISH MY TRAINING WITH VFC. This will really help me save time as I then don't have to do grade 12th immediately.

I'm looking for any answers that can help me, as I'm in quite in a pickle here. Thank you everyone!

There are so many threads on this same topic. You will not get a job here in Canada as you have no right to work here. So, you might be able to take your training here, you don't automatically become eligible to work in Canada. You need 1500 hrs of experience to qualify for an ATPL here, which means that you will have had to have gained commercial experience of some sort. That means, if you're thinking of working here, read the second sentence above. No right to work...no flying here. Everyone will want to take your money but 'buyer beware'. You could get sold a 'bill of goods' and end up with a huge bill that you can't pay for at the end. I hate to burst your bubble but the Canadian market is flooded with Canadian pilots who do have have the right to work here and who are looking for work.

So, if you go to VFC you're going to go into a University program without having finished Grade 12? That's not going to set you up for success at all. Year one university is often a hard repeat of Grade 12, so if you're going in with Grade 11, you're going in without a lot of needed information.

Finish your Grade 12 in a normal school and don't rush. The aviation industry is cyclical around the world and if you're starting now, you're likely rushing to the next downturn. So take your time and actually learn something. Those of us who have been through two downturns (or more) are realizing the next one is just around the corner, despite all the excitement around the hiring blitz. This is all just history repeating and there are a lot of people who are in for a real wakeup call at just how cruel life can be.

You're not in a pickle. You're still in your teens. You're going to look back on this time and realize you rushed through one of the best parts of life. If you stick it out in aviation, you're going to have a good forty years doing the same thing over and over again. I find a lot of the First Officers I fly with who joined the airlines straight out of flight school or after a quick stint with a smaller operator really don't like what they're doing after about two years. Some stick it out, others have left for their old jobs, and some others still have moved to another industry.

Once the dream is realized, it's no longer a dream - it's your job. And jobs suck. They suck bad. It's hard to keep the dream alive after three nights of minimum rest in just another hotel, waking up at 03:30 for a 04:15 shuttle to go fly a 12-hour day and you pull the blinds and realize it just dumped four feet of snow outside and there is a message from your spouse saying the kid caught a cold.

Keep it a dream for as long as you can and you'll be much happier when you finally realize your dream has become your job and you're dealing with the baggage that comes with working for a living.

Oh, and also - what 77AV8R said is spot on.

Just Another Thought...
 

Fltcpt..we were all in your shoes once. Gosh, it was a long time since I was in Grade 12 and I too had finished a PPL, with almost as much time as you. I admire your drive and you already have the passion to be an aviator. That is pretty exciting, I don't care who you are. It's fantastic!

So, some questions to think about.

1. What would you gain by coming to Canada and dropping all your money here with no reasonable expectation of getting any work here?

2. What is the likelihood that you will be able to find a job in Australia (?) vs spending a lot of time and effort to try and find some way of working in Canada?

3. Can you not finding excellent training in Australia as opposed to coming to Canada to take training?

4. Have you figured living expenses into training in Canada vs training in Australia? It is expensive here in Canada...are you living at home?

Those are just some thoughts from an old aviator who remembers what it was like to be young and energetic. From my memory, I wanted to have an ATPL, 10000 hrs and fly a B707 (the B747 was just being thought of).

You have time on your side. A lot of time. Make some smart choices at the beginning. Find some honest aviator who is willing to provide some mentorship and give you guidance along the way. You ultimately have to make the decisions but having someone to 'speak into you' could ultimately send you in the right direction with less personal hassle and money saved.

And +TSRA is correct in what he says in some ways. I don't agree with it all however; flying airplanes was my passion until I retired. They still are. I put up with the flight time limitations, long haul flights and short layovers. It was all part of what I signed on for. I have absolutely no regrets from my time in this business. And for me, my job never sucked, to be perfectly honest. I went to work each day and fully enjoyed and engaged with everyone that I worked with. In the end, it was my attitude that won the day. Anyone can have the perfect job however; if I had a bad attitude, that perfect job would be the worst thing in the world. Its a matter of perspective and what I bring to my position and all those with whom that I worked. I thoroughly enjoyed the good and the bad.

Best of luck to you.

Wow! I'm really awestruck with the fact that you two gentlemen have taken the time and effort to write something so special and most importantly you've written hard facts, you didn't sugar coat it like usually people do and I would like to thank you for that. I have now got a better idea of what I have to do and how I have to do it. I do however have one question, I've read that Canada has an immigration program, where if a student studies for 2 years or more they can acquire a 3 year work permit under the post graduate work permit program. I have spoken to multiple lawyers and all have said that it is relatively easier to get a work permit in Canada, compared to Australia. Also after comparing the cost of living (Australia Vs Canada) I have found out that Australia is actually a bit more expensive. Once again I would really like to say thank you for taking the time to give me an informative reply.

Well Flightcpt, I'm not an immigration expert, so for this, I have no idea. My expertise lies in flying airplanes safely and having a good time doing it.
Keep doing your homework.

Unless you're going to be an illegal immigrant and work in kitchens etc the higher the qualifications/experience you hold the easier it is to change countries in EVERY field

get qualified in Australia, build experience - then you stand a chance of changing countries/jobs

TBH the only alternative is to emigrate and start as a Canadian citizen- but then again the higher your qualifications the easier it is..............

I completely understand and would like to thank you for taking the time to give me an informative reply. I will definitely keep on doing my research and will update you on status, I hope u don't mind.

Hahaha no not at all I wont be an illegal immigrant, however in Australia there aren't any post graduate work permits and other programs have higher requirements compared to Canada. I would like to thank you for your reply Heathrow Harry.

Same everywhere I'm afraid - protectionism rules until the shortage becomes so bad they have to do something.........................

One of the issues I've always found with Canada is that Canadians think they get a hard time from the US and so adopt similar strict rules on employment to get back at the Yanks - unfortunately everyone else gets caught in the cross-fire

Harv's Air is in Steinbach, Manitoba.

Victoria Flying Club is in Victoria, British Columbia.

Have you ever BEEN to Canada?

What was your question again?

I never mentioned where they were, so what are you trying to correct?
I have not been to Canada, but the internet is good enough to tell me where Harv's Air and Victoria Flying Club are. I was just asking where I should continue my training, cause there are some pros and cons to both considering my situation. Please read the first post on this thread.

Locations
 

The average high temperature for a January day in Victoria is only 7 degrees Celsius but that is 18 degrees warmer than in Steinbach. If your previous residences have been in India and Australia this may be a factor you want to consider.

And, you know this how Harry? What a load of horse patootie.


`

Okay I have a final question to ask please. Regardless of my situation, which academy is better and for what reasons? Harvs Air vs Victoria Flying Club, if you were to choose, which one would it be?

Flightcpt
I think you really need to talk to the University of Victoria about this degree that Victoria Flying says you will get. All of the Canadian Universities and Technical Colleges require their students to meet a Minimum Educational Requirement of Grade 12. They also have 10 students trying to get the one chair they have available so someone without the minimum educational requirements is number 11 on that list in their eyes.


Roybert

Flightcpt. Right now you are focused on getting into an airplane as quickly as you can and getting the license in hand, so it seems as though this is a hard decision.

We've all been there.

But try and think what might happen twenty to thirty years down the road when a doctor tells you you've already flown your last flight and you're looking at another ten to twenty years driving a desk or simulator. You are going to want an education more than just a pilots license to make things interesting day in and day out. This makes your decision now a very easy one.

Do your Grade 12, study for the good grades and go to a degree program. There are lots more of those around than VFC too (i.e., Mount Royal). You'll thank yourself in twenty years.

Flight Capt, appreciate your aspiration to be a pilot, but I get the feeling that you are in for trouble and could endup in a completely wrong place. I would remind you to consider a few points below.

1. First of all, all of the major airlines have include additional qualifications in their recruitment criteria, Eg: Air Canada prefers pilots to have minimum of a graduation and an aviation related degree. Look in to their careers page. I am not saying that you wont quality with an ATPL and enough hours on your logbook, but preference is given to candidates with higher qualifications. As someone pointed above, there are lots of people who would rank above you.
2. Most of the candidates who go to Canada, initially think that its all very easy and end up doing uber taxi jobs and restaurant cleaner jobs to find money to get their flight hours. A 2 year program ends up taking 5 or more years. You will be forced to go and find alternatives to survive (get PR etc) in Canada.
3. I am sure people will do all of that, and still fail because at an interview, others will stamp over you because of their higher qualifications.
4. One last thing about Canada is that the weather is so unpredictable; so even if you had all the money to do your hours, you may end up with lots of cancellations due to the weather.

I think a more pragmatic option for you would be to first qualify your +2 and try a graduate program in Canada (Any would do). The you could get your CPL and other ratings etc sorted while you are over there as a self paced program.
In reality, majority of the Aviation Certification programs are a waste of money (in the pretext that you get a certificate, which ofcourse is of not much value above your hours of flying experience)

Hey Roybert, I have spoken to UVic and they say that as long as I finish my training with Victoria Flying Club, they are willing to overlook the prerequisite of grade 12 and give me the LOA (Letter of Acceptance) as soon as I send them VFCs LOA.

I have decided after all your input and guidance being the same, to join the Virtual High School in Canada and do a fast track online high school diploma program for adults (takes about 3-4 months) to acquire my high school diploma. I also spoke to Harvs air about this and they say that they create a schedule according to the student, so they say that I can do the high school diploma program (from September-March, cause they usually are no fly months) and flight training. Is this a good idea?

I have decided after all your input and guidance being the same, to join the Virtual High School in Canada and do a fast track online high school diploma program for adults (takes about 3-4 months) to acquire my high school diploma. I also spoke to Harvs air about this and they say that they create a schedule according to the student, so they say that I can do the high school diploma program (from September-March, cause they usually are no fly months) and flight training and after all that Ill get a diploma in Business Management in Aviation. Is this a good idea?

September to March "no fly" months ? Seven (7) months! Absurd.

Well that's what I got to hear from students at some flight academies in Manitoba (Harvs Air bring one of them). How could I know, I've never been to Canada before? Could you please tell me the correct months?

Harv's
 

Ignore all the doom and gloom posts.
Harv's for an Indian CPL trainee is probably the best choice for a variety of reasons.

First, they do a large number of foreign students including Indian. They have experience and expertise in assisting in obtaining the vital Student Visa and
because it is in Manitoba, you will most probably end up with a work permit when you finish your training providing you make the proper application in the first place.

BC, Alberta and Ontario, do not have the same policies towards immigrants that exist in Manitoba. The other choice is Quebec that would require you start with reasonable ability in French.

First you decide on the province, then the school.
Manitoba wins hands down, and then Harv's wins again because of
their experience and size.

One factor you need to consider is the "Culture" of respect towards immigrants and or the lack of.

Go to youtube and put in immigration and the name of the province and watch the results.

No fly months? Winnipeg gets 265 clear days a year on average! Fog there is 6 km visibility:) Although there is a rain shadow in Victoria, it still rains a lot (been there, done that).

I can personally recommend Harvs Air, and Manitoba is not a bad province at all. I immigrated there myself.

I wouldn't let the choice of degree influence your decision.

Phil

Flight Training in Canada
 

I would be an international student on a student visa, and I am torn between Brampton Flight Centre, and Harv's Air. How I wish physically checking, and talking to students would be possible for me, but I am not in Canada.

If I go to Brampton, I won't be eligible for a PGWP.
If I go to Harv's Air, I would be eligible for a PGWP. But I am not sure if I would like it in Manitoba, and I don't know anyone in Manitoba. Whereas, I have friends in Toronto.

I was also considering Moncton Flight College, but I can't reach anyone. I sent them an email last night, and I got an out-of-office reply, which would be until 12th March. I also tried calling the number on their website, and no one answered. I mean, why don't they assign a reliever or something if the person in charge would be gone that long?

Or would you recommend other flight schools aside from the ones I have mentioned? Inputs would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, guys!

So make some more friends! :) They're a great bunch at Harvs! You'd better get used to making friends if you are going to fly for a living, especially if you plan to fly in the bush.

Phil

If you are really "torn" up by the responses, then see what you want to see and be happy at Brampton where you probably have a host of countrymen living near by who know little about aviation but will push you to being close to Toronto.

If you can't reach MFC on the phone then that should be an indication of their approach to communications. MFC has had good and bad management in the past. A lack of answering the phone is not a good sign.

If you call Harv's you get a very nice friendly lady who will answer all your questions or get someone who can. Everyone on this forum has told you how fortunate you would be at Harv's etc etc.

If you want to speak to "other students" then just get on the phone, call Harvs and they will have a room full of foreign students
most probably who speak your first language who you can speak with. Their instructors are generally former students so, that should tell you volumes about how supportive they are of foreign students etc.

They also have a lot of experience at understanding the immigration related questions which means the paperwork has to be done correctly. If it is not done correctly, exactly as it is required, it may need to be done all over again and that could cost you another six months and an exit from Canada for a while to deal with the problem.

Now, I'm not acquainted with the ops rules at Harv's but at other flight schools not far away, we instructed in a Cessna 172 down to -30C with the cowl covers installed, something you will probably see only in Canada.

Now, down at Brampton, where it hardly ever gets that cold in winter, you will see them shut down operations at a much warmer temp.

Other schools claim they fly when it gets cold but also shut down when it gets a bit chilly at -15.

If you are coming to Canada then keep an open mind to be taught how to fly in the cooler temperatures, like -30 and below.

After you start work in Canada, you will go from some really chilly place to another place where its only -40 and it will feel positively tropical by comparison.

You now have an incredible amount of very good information on the previous posts. Perhaps it is time for you to follow up on that information.

Flightcpt, you've got quite a lot of really good information here. For myself, I was trained at Brampton, back in the '70's, they have a good operation. My visits to Harv's Air impressed me well. Consider accommodating costs, this may make Harv's more attractive, it's really expensive to live near Toronto.

Winter is a great time to fly, there are no no fly months in Canada. You will encounter colder temps at Harv's Air than Brampton, but that would rarely cause no fly. Yes, we put blankets o the engines, and plug them in to warm them up. You'll find the performance of a plane at -20C on a super clear winter day to be noticeably better than a soggy +30C day, winter fly as much as you can.

Winter weather patterns include "lake effect snow" in areas downwind of very large lakes. Most places in southern Ontario are subject to Lake effect snow, so there will be no fly days from that. I think Harv's Air may also subject to this effect, though I think to a lesser degree, they're better positioned relative to lakes Winnipeg and Manitoba. The Vancouver area, and maritime provinces in the east are subject to rain and fog in the summer - ocean effect.

No Major Canadian flying school will disappoint you, but certainly one may fit your needs just a little better than another, do your research well!

Thank you so much for your reply Ramjet555. Your reply has helped me to understand Canada and Harvs air at a better level, especially from an immigrant point of view. Yes, it will definitely help me in India as well. I will see what you're asking me to on YouTube. Thank you once again!

Thank you so much Phil for your reply. Yes it did seem odd to me, when I spoke to a couple people in Winnipeg, and they said that the weather is really bad down there and that there would be 'no fly' months! Thank you for correcting my knowledge.

I use to wish the same, until I tumbled across PPRUNE and AVCANADA Forums, and judging by the number and quality of replies, I can safely say that I'm making a very good and informed decision and you will too.

Well to be honest with ya, you got to think wether you wanna stay in Canada or not (after training), and you can always make new friends in Winnipeg (as rightly said by Phil), I've heared that Canadians are amazing, soft and kind people, so you'll be fine.

Yeah, I was planning on training with them, but I also couldn't get through to them (over the phone), so I dropped the idea.

Everyone recommends Harvs air, so it's a safe choice, don't confuse yourself with too many flight schools but yes do your research well.

Thank you so much PilotDAR for your reply. I definitely agree that I've got a great load of information and I will make sure to utilize that information to its fullest. Thank you for telling me about the lake effect snow, Ive never heard of it before. I feel that Harvs air fits my needs and will continue my training with them. Thank you once again sir!

I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time and efforts to reply. I'm pretty sure that after utilising the information I have received here, the results will be great. If there is anything you would like to know about flying in India or Australia, please do ask me. Thank you all for helping me out once again!

Keep us posted........

phil

Will do :ok:

Hi, Flightcpt! I might go to Harv's Air as well. :) See you there! Yes, I have a few Canadian friends that I have met during my travels, and they are really nice. But none of them is from Manitoba, unfortunately.

And thank yooooou to everyone who responded!

I look forward to seeing you there as well.

In India the minimum requirement to become a pilot is to be a Grade 12th Passout with Physics, Maths and English as your subjects.
So you cannot find any job in India as a fresher therefore it is better to pass out from high school first then do it from Australia and according to Indians, Australia is a good place to learn flying, many Indians go to Australia for CPL.
Canada isn't ideal due to its bad weather, flying months are less plus Aviation degrees aren't very progressive or helpful to make you a pilot, it is better do it from a flying academy or after having a good graduation degree which can get you into an alternate job as a security measure.
All the best.

I usually get my morning rubbish from CBC, but this will do nicely; thank-you. A wonderfully, uninformed statement which immediately indicates a lack of research or knowledge by the poster to go with my morning coffee.

I feel like feeding a troll today.

There are many universities in Canada which provide training towards a pilot license in addition to providing world-class education towards an undergraduate science or management degree, both of which are transferable in the workforce. However, many overseas students look for "the quick fix" and stop their search at those schools that provide aviation diplomas at best or just the licenses at worst. While still valuable, these are not as transferable as a degree. With that said, many universities in Canada and the United States will transfer some or all of the license or diploma into credits towards a degree, leaving further education up to the student. Imagine that, taking on the responsibility for your growth and education instead of hoping it is handed to you on a silver platter with gold trim.

As far as progressive, one need only look at the popular websites (ScienceDaily, Phys.Org, etc.) to see how world-leading many Canadian institutions are, never mind those sites that sit behind the university firewalls. I'll grant you the flight departments of these universities are not challenging NASA for top research spot, but there is also nothing stopping a student from doing co-op research.

As far as weather goes, I guess you figure Canada ends east of Abbotsford. The breadth of Canada includes many locations that have very few poor weather days, and some places count lousy weather in hours over a year rather than days. It is one of the few countries where one can gain experience in almost all weather conditions our planet can throw at us. But yeah, I guess that's not helpful in learning how to be a pilot.

I'd keep going but frankly, this has gotten me through four cups of coffee and a muffin, and I have a honey-do list an arm long.

I hope the troll is well fed.