US slaps huge duty on C Series
 

Boeing gets 219% tariff on C series
 

But Boeing ain't subsidized by the US gummint a tall.

Nope, doesn't happen. :rolleyes:

First we should wait to see what the other verdict on this issue will be sometime in early October before taking action.

If again it goes against Bombardier then I'm all for the cancellation of the propose new F18 fighters and the possible purchase of the F35 fighters.

But the best way to retaliate would be an immediate 220% tax on all already ordered and signed deals for Boeing products coming into Canada including orders from WestJet and Air Canada on all 737s.

If AC is still in line to receive new 787s, then they too should be taxed.

Subsidies, a hot potato which no one in the LPC saw coming?

So you are all for the Canadian government compromising national security in order to extort a private company? Using the men and women in our armed forces as a bargaining chip is pretty distasteful.

Even these threats from politicians just prove Boeings point that Bombardier is receiving unfair government backing.
It is very obvious they received subsidies.... they took that billion dollars to subsidize a deal with Delta(and to a lesser extent Air Canada) that resulted in a massive financial loss to the company.

Almost a billion dollars of Canadian taxpayer money got funnelled to an American company that posted a $4 billion profit last year.

The U.S. Department of Commerce used fact based research to determine a tariff based on how much below cost the C series were sold at, which had been in violation of trade rules..... To the people who say Canada should respond with tariffs against Boeing, what is that based on? Boeing isn't selling its products in Canada below cost with US government funds.

And no, military contracts are NOT subsidies.. the US government receives high end hardware for the billions it spends on defence contractors. It's not a hand out.

And it's not Boeings fault that tax is higher for a Quebec based company.

How can Boeing claim they have been hurt in the marketplace when they (a) don't build an equivalent aircraft (there may be a 150 seater 737 but it's not on offer at the moment) and (b) they couldn't sell any 737s to a new customer for about five years even with their insane firing order (Boeing speak for production rate).
Plus there's the potential loss of American jobs in Pratt & Whitney, Rockwell Collins & Honeywell.

I really wouldn't consider the F-35 turkey low end hardware but even that is being subsidised by the US taxpayer via the Congress critter and their pork barrels.

If Canada had any sense then it should cancel the F-18s and go to the European option. It would give the orange idiot something else to squeal about how unfair NAFTA is to the poor USA. Guess the 220% applied duty doesn't count in this transaction. :ugh:

LMAO... There are plenty of other countries with excellent military equipment we can buy from... The USA is not God's gift to this world!

If we can send them a clear and loud message so be it.

Totally agree.

Agree. Shove this tax right back at them.

Nice first post ya shill

Boeing sold united 80 737's last year at 23M apiece to keep BBD out"what is list price on those". Maybe we need to send Boeing a message. Personally I would prefer the Rafale, and Dassault was willing to set up a production line in Canada.

How do you like them apples

How long did the Government think the tax payer funded media could keep insulting the leader of one of the worlds most powerful nations before a response would be made ?


The soft wood timber was the first counter punch , the 220 tariff is just the beginning .
You can expect more counter punching from the Donald . The BBC mouthpieces that have been insulting the Donald will find themselves getting their funding cut, just like the NPR lost HUGE funding in the USA .
Most left wing MSM never said a disparaging word against bathhouse in eight years .They gave him a free ride for eight years. They thought they could finally unleash their pent up bile against the new guy just because nobody could accuse them of being racist, are in for a big nasty shock when they reap what they sow.
Which came first the Chicken or the egg ? The insults came first and then the tariffs ! Maybe if the CBC , BBC and the lefties play nice they might get treated nice in return :)

You are delusional.

Did you stay up all night to think of that witty retort ?
Or are kindergarten insults the limit of your ability to debate ?

Pay attention, there will be more counter punches coming.

It's silly to think that the man across the border gives one tinker's damn about what's written or said about him in the CBC.

Jeezus
 

Another Albertan heard from :ugh:

Fitliker You need to go back into the history books and read some of the trade history between Canada and the US. Lumber tariffs have been an ongoing battle well before Trump became dictator of the US and in his mind the world. Also BBC in the British Broadcasting Corp not Canadian.

I've just been audited by the CRA on my 2016 Tax Return.

One of the Questions was 'Do you have any dependents?' YES/NO. (If YES please give details.)

I put: 2.1 million illegal immigrants, 1.1 million drug addicts, 4.4 million unemployable scroungers, 50,000 criminals, hundreds of idiots in Parliament and 66,000 employees at Bombardier.

The CRA now say my response was 'Unacceptable'.

Can anyone please tell me who I left out?????

You forgot the good old United States as the 220% duty will be handed to Boeing to heal the broken heart if the Bombardier deal manages to go ahead.:ugh:

Well er340790, I believe the answer lies in the fact that neither humour, truth, nor fiction gets through the walls of the Connaught Building. Like many buildings in the Capital Region, it is an impenetrable fortress to critical thinking and appropriate action.


It is where common sense goes to die.

"I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off of my stack."

Roger Waters

Yet Boeing sold United about 80 737's at 23M apiece according to their CEO. Canada has around 130 orders for 737/787, counter duties anyone. Who exactly can launch a WTO grievance?

Who do you guy's think pay those duties?

Boeing’s claim of “below cost” is an imaginary number at best. They’re going to have to stretch their imaginations to make it fit their accusations.

Bombardier and Delta reached an agreed to sales figure for the purchase of 75 aircraft. The “actual cost” of each aircraft won’t be known until they are “actually” built and delivered. Until then it’s an “assumption” on Boeing’s part.
Not much for Boeing to go on, I’d say.

They’re just doing what they need to do. Based on their past realities with Airbus cracking the US market in the 80s, there’s danger in allowing Bombardier, Sukhoi, Embraer, and the MRJ into the US market. You’d expect Boeing to have a wobble.
Wouldn’t you?

Willie :ok:

Maybe this has been asked before but what is to prevent these aircraft from being sold to a leasing company in Canada and then delivered to Delta? Would that not circumvent this tariff?

No, it wouldn’t as the leasing company would have to import the planes to the US register to be operated by DL.

GF

We’ll see how much or how little political clout Delta has.
And whether or not the ITC is in Donald's Pocket.
Surely, there are a few intelligent Americans left who can see through this.

Willie :ok:

Trump's been on record as disliking free trade agreements, wanting to renegotionate or pull out of NAFTA. This duty is in line with his proposed policies. The dumb thing about it is that Trump is opposed to free trade agreements because they're seen as causing the USA's negative trade balance, but the aerospace industry is actually the greatest generator of trade surplus for the US (source), so putting trade restrictions in place for that sector (which other countries will certainly levy in kind on US products) is shooting himself in the foot.

Delta partnering up with Air France-KLM may perhaps have something to do with it as well.

Clearly, this is the fall of the United States as we knew it, happening right before our eyes. This action by Boeing is but one example of how the United States is in a downward spiral. Isolationist policies of Donald Trump totally ignore the fact that they have to deal with the real world around them (whether he likes it or not).

Trump behaves like a high school freshman leading the school pep rally. Nothing more. Quite juvenile. Hasn't worked much since he took office, but hits the links every weekend. How many have been fired or resigned under his brilliant leadership?

His notion that NAFTA is a bad deal for the U.S. is complete fantasy. Re-negotiating it could cost them more than they think. It might leave little to be re-negotiated as evidenced by the American delegation in Canada not having many concerns or proposals for Mexico and Canada. Stay tuned.

Companies other than Boeing make suitable quality fighters that Canada could easily turn to as a solution to Boeing's hypocracy.

Why hold our military hostage in all this? Because, we aren't at war with anyone and aren't about to get into one in the near future. No pressing issue for the RCAF at present. Perfect timing, I'd say with lots of options for the government of Canada.

I'm more concerned for the Boeing employees in Manitoba who have more to lose if things go up in smoke at the ITC.

This is David and Goliath. David has a few stones. It remains to be seen whether one or some of those stones can have an impact, let alone kill the idea of tariffs on Bombardier.

We could start with Hydro Quebec. They could charge the U.S. 300% more for their imported electricity.
Uranium could cost more for the U.S. medical institutions to import.
Water. California might have to pay 300% more for imported fresh Canadian water.
Oil. We're their biggest supplier and the oil patch is hurting. Time to increase the price??
Aluminum. (would that help Boeing build more airplanes?) We should charge more for our natural resources.

David isn't without stones in this fight.

Willie :ok:

It is the business model of the 21st century. Why innovate when you can litigate.

trump and Brexit are the two most evident examples in a decline of common sense and educational standards amongst electorates.

Dont bother to think just vote the way the print media (UK) or Faux news (US ) tells you and you get an incompetent administration doing untold damage to the economy and social fabric of our countries.

In your case in the USA you have a President who doenst understand that beign the most powerful country doesn t mean you always get your own way, you have to trade with others and that means on terms that are general fair to both sides.

In our case UK we used to be the most powerful country in the world but that was 150 years ago and now we have to play the game like everyone else with cooperation and compromise. But our government feels we are above all of that and can be 'Great' again but of course we can't because the world has caught up and we are a pretty small place in the general scheme of things .

A tragedy for both the worlds great 'English speaking countries'

Another view of the “Bombardier versus the Duopoly”. Interestingly one of the reasons for the complaint may be that over 50% of the CSeries is US made!
Opinion: Why Boeing vs. Bombardier Is Really About China | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week

Yanks
 

Even the Motley Fool has made a 180 on Bombardier.

Why the C Series’s success is what Boeing Co. is really afraid of
Demetris Afxentiou, the Motley Fool

Over the course of the past few weeks, the aerospace sector has been quietly watching the ongoing battle escalate between Bombardier, Inc. (TSX:BBD.B) and Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA).
At the core of the dispute between the two companies lies the CSeries, the revolutionary new jet that Bombardier built and brought to market after an extended period of development and testing that went billions over budget and nearly bankrupted the company.
Bombardier relied on a number of investments and loans to build the CSeries, and those government subsidies form part of the dispute with Boeing. Ironically, Boeing itself has received a greater amount of funding from various levels of government on more than one occasion for its own projects.
In terms of orders, the CSeries struggled to gain the 300 orders by launch that Bombardier had been hoping for, at least until both Air Canada and Delta Air Lines Inc. both offered Bombardier sizeable contracts for the new aircraft that pushed total production to well over 300.

What is Boeing’s complaint?
Boeing’s primary complaint is that Bombardier was dumping the planes into the U.S. market at significantly reduced rates, which caused harm to Boeing’s own sales.
That’s going to be a really tough claim to substantiate, as the CSeries is firmly slated in the 100-120 passenger segment, which Boeing cannot currently compete in. The smallest modern plane that Boeing makes to rival the CSeries is the 737, and even the newest generation of that aircraft, in the smallest configuration, is still larger than the CSeries both in terms of passengers and overall size.
The CSeries is widely respected for being more fuel efficient and introducing new technologies that improve the experience for both flight crews and passengers. The smaller size of the jet also allows it to fly to smaller secondary towns and routes where larger jets, such as the 737, would be cost prohibitive, if not too large to land.
In a series of rulings as recently as last week, U.S. duties of nearly 300% were imposed on CSeries jets, which cast doubt on the future of the Delta deal. Prior to the announcement, several U.S. airlines had sent strongly worded letters of concern to the Department of Commerce on the issue, urging the body to rule against the tariffs and encouraging a free market.
Delta threw its weight behind Bombardier further this week, commenting that it will move forward with the CSeries deal, with CEO Ed Bastian informing analysts during the earnings call this week that we will take the planes, and that the decision from Commerce is not just disappointing. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
If that wasn’t direct enough, Mr. Bastian went further: “We think that the aircraft needs to come to market. We believe it will come to market and we believe that Delta will get it at the agreed contractual price. We’re not going to be forced to pay tariffs or do anything of the ilk so there should not be any concerns on our investors minds in that regard.”
Delta’s first CSeries delivery is currently scheduled next April, by which time a final decision from the International Trade Commission is likely to weigh in on the matter.

Is Bombardier a good investment?
Bombardier’s CSeries is an advanced jet that is disrupting the status quo. This has the bigger players like Boeing worried for obvious reasons. Just looking at that aspect, Bombardier as an investment option may raise some eyebrows.
Looking deeper, however, Bombardier has a string of issues that need to be resolved, including this recent spat with Boeing. If the CSeries were to be taxed significantly (if not prohibitively) from entering the U.S. market, that would be a severe blow, but not the death knell, for the CSeries.
Bombardier is already actively pursuing other markets for the CSeries, and Europe and Asia in particular may fit with the smaller commuter-style role the jet can play.
In my opinion, Bombardier may be too risky an investment for most, but the company has made a significant improvement over just a year ago. If Bombardier can weather the current storm and stick to the CSeries delivery schedule, the company may emerge as an intriguing investment opportunity.

Transport Canada
 

Interested to know if Transport Canada could deem the Boeing Line of Aircraft persona non grata in Canada?

Based on what? Millions of hours of safe and effective operations by several Canadian operators? :rolleyes:

I think this Boeing thing is the height of hypocrisy but let's be real. The only ones who'd be damaged by such actions are Canadian operators, their employees and customers.

Hopefully, when Boeing's complaint is heard by the USITC, who deal in International trade agreements, this will all go away much to Boeing's disappointment.
(But, the big guy always wins. Unless the law determines otherwise)

I'm pretty sure Bombardier's lawyers are just as conversant as Boeing's when it comes to international law relevant to the sale or purchase of aircraft across borders.
I suspect the USITC are as well, and Boeing are going to have a hard time proving big, bad, ol' Bomb-a-deer caused them harm.

Willie :ok:

On what grounds?

Trump and his yes men and woman have used fake reasons to come up with the 300% duties and penalty so as they say Tit for Tat work for the US so good enough for Canada. :ugh: