Conducting an IPC

[aviran]

Hey everyone,
yeah it's me again.
I was reading AC No. 401-004, and it State the following:

1. be conducted by any of the following persons that holds a valid instrument rating for the same group of aircraft pursuant to Standard 421.46(1) of the CARs:
   1. any qualified Transport Canada Civil Aviation Inspector or Canadian Pilot Examiner authorized to conduct Instrument Rating flight tests who meet the requirements of subsections (1) and (9) of Standard 425.21 of the CARs; [Qualified on the aircraft type and meets the aircraft familiarity requirements of the Pilot Examiner Manual];
   2. any Canadian Approved Check Pilot (ACP) that is authorized to conduct PPC/ IFC flight checks and who meets the requirements of subsections (1) and (9) of Standard 425.21 of the CARs, [Qualified for and familiar with the specific type or variant of aircraft on which the IPC is conducted and meets the aircraft familiarity requirements of the Approved Check Pilot Manual. Subsection 425.21(9) does not require the holding of a Flight Instructor Rating.];
   3. a person who holds an authorization equivalent to a Canadian pilot examiner or ACP from a Contracting state having a reciprocal licensing agreement with Canada; or
   4. a Canadian Forces Instrument Check Pilot, provided that the person being tested is a member of the Canadian Forces.

So my question is - to my understanding, for most FTU that would mean only a PE can conduct an IPC, correct? I'm asking as an FAA licensed it is, by far, easier for me to meet a CFII in the States and get the IPC done there, not to mention cheaper (and TC already confirmed that an FAA CFII is equal to a PE, even though it's an instructor Vs. Examiner, because the CFII must pass a flight test to become one and the FAA recognize them as authority to it, and so does TC).

[Big Pistons Forever]

A Pilot Examiner with a letter of accreditation endorsed for Instrument Rating or an Approved Check Pilot (Not restricted to VFR only) can conduct an IPC.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever

A Pilot Examiner with a letter of accreditation endorsed for Instrument Rating or an Approved Check Pilot (Not restricted to VFR only) can conduct an IPC.

Sadly yet another sign of the dying GA system in Canada.

Thank you!

[Pilot DAR]

Sadly yet another sign of the dying GA system in Canada.

I'm thinking; don't put that on your resume when applying to a Canadian GA business for a pilot job.

Aviran, it puzzles me why most of your posts on the Canadian forum knock the Canadian system, yet you seem to be so eager to participate in it? I have flown as a pilot in several dozen countries on three continents, and with that experience, I could not be more happy to be a citizen of Canada, and a pilot in Canada. I have been so lucky to fly with the economy and freedom I have for the last half century. Is our system perfect? No. But over all, our system is good, and produces pilots respected internationally. Gaps I see can be filled by the diligent pilot seeking out extra training along their career - a good idea for any pilot. Waving the ugly stick at Canada will do nothing to make our system better, and just makes you look bad.

Go and work in our system for half the time I have, earn some respect and credibility in our system, then bring your ideas for improvement to the table. I can absolutely assure you that TC staff listen to the comments of credible, established industry pilots - and things change for the better because those credible pilot's opinions were considered. But, you gotta earn the credibility first!

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

I'm thinking; don't put that on your resume when applying to a Canadian GA business for a pilot job.

Aviran, it puzzles me why most of your posts on the Canadian forum knock the Canadian system, yet you seem to be so eager to participate in it? I have flown as a pilot in several dozen countries on three continents, and with that experience, I could not be more happy to be a citizen of Canada, and a pilot in Canada. I have been so lucky to fly with the economy and freedom I have for the last half century. Is our system perfect? No. But over all, our system is good, and produces pilots respected internationally. Gaps I see can be filled by the diligent pilot seeking out extra training along their career - a good idea for any pilot. Waving the ugly stick at Canada will do nothing to make our system better, and just makes you look bad.

Go and work in our system for half the time I have, earn some respect and credibility in our system, then bring your ideas for improvement to the table. I can absolutely assure you that TC staff listen to the comments of credible, established industry pilots - and things change for the better because those credible pilot's opinions were considered. But, you gotta earn the credibility first!

I'll put it this way - I live in an area where the closest PE with instrument rating privilege is over 800 KM away. For him to come here I'd have to pay over $1,000. Meanwhile, driving across the border a distance of 300 KM I can pay $70 USD for a CFII to conduct an IPC. Technically an FAA holder doesn't need an IPC as long as they can do their 6 HITS (you can Google it), but I can do it nevertheless and it counts.

This PE doesn't even come here unless he have, at least, 3-4 candidates to justify the cost (fee + expanses). Sure, DPE in States charge a LOT more than Canadian PE, but it's a one time thing, which is why the price is so high.

Here's a solution TC was offered a long time ago but rejected it, which is to do a CFII of their own. Simply put - to have any instructor that want to do instrument training pass a dedicated written exam and flight test (which basically is the same instrument rating flight test on the right seat). It even makes a LOT more sense in Canada given our size and the lack of PEs (or qualified PEs) for certain areas.

Maybe if you'd lived in a remote area you'd understand why I am agitated with this system. Our system is designed for major metropolitan areas in mind. And you'd think the US is no different - but you'd be wrong, because they have special rules for Alaska to reduce the requirement given their location and topography. Why TC can't do the same and stop acting as if Canada end between QC and ON? I get it - it's where their major voters area, and government elected get it handed to them in the last election, but at least don't make it so much obvious.

[sgs233a]

Originally Posted by aviran

I'll put it this way - I live in an area where the closest PE with instrument rating privilege is over 800 KM away. For him to come here I'd have to pay over $1,000. Meanwhile, driving across the border a distance of 300 KM I can pay $70 USD for a CFII to conduct an IPC. Technically an FAA holder doesn't need an IPC as long as they can do their 6 HITS (you can Google it), but I can do it nevertheless and it counts.

This PE doesn't even come here unless he have, at least, 3-4 candidates to justify the cost (fee + expanses). Sure, DPE in States charge a LOT more than Canadian PE, but it's a one time thing, which is why the price is so high.

Here's a solution TC was offered a long time ago but rejected it, which is to do a CFII of their own. Simply put - to have any instructor that want to do instrument training pass a dedicated written exam and flight test (which basically is the same instrument rating flight test on the right seat). It even makes a LOT more sense in Canada given our size and the lack of PEs (or qualified PEs) for certain areas.

Maybe if you'd lived in a remote area you'd understand why I am agitated with this system. Our system is designed for major metropolitan areas in mind. And you'd think the US is no different - but you'd be wrong, because they have special rules for Alaska to reduce the requirement given their location and topography. Why TC can't do the same and stop acting as if Canada end between QC and ON? I get it - it's where their major voters area, and government elected get it handed to them in the last election, but at least don't make it so much obvious.

May I ask where in Ontario you live that it's an 800 KM drive to find a person do an IPC ride, but only 300 KM to find someone in the US? There's a lot of aviation in the more remote areas, and there are a number of folks around most of those areas (unless you're in a really remote northern area) that can do these rides.... It may be worth calling around commercial operators in your area and seeing if you can get the name of someone closer who can help you out.... Also any FTUs, of course.

Also, pretty sure Pilot DAR is quite familiar with remote areas and has been around Canadian aviation for quite some time. I'd be inclined to listen to his advice.

[Pilot DAR]

It may be worth calling around commercial operators in your area and seeing if you can get the name of someone closer who can help you out....

This.

I have found TC very agreeable to a special arrangement when it made good sense, and was born of necessity (geographical common sense). When I needed a ride for my multi engine endorsement, I had a lot of trouble finding an "examiner" who had any experience in Cessna 310's (in which I had trained privately - I had the plane). None of the schools flew them, so their instructors knew nothing of them. I found a qualified and experienced "examiner", but he was not a public "examiner", and rather distant. I proposed to TC and the insurer, no problem, I could fly the airplane solo there for my ride. It went very well. TC inspectors have means to allow some exemptions/exceptions for special needs - if you approach them with a reasoned plan - and a favourable attitude.

And, should you find a more local commercial operator who is willing to help you out in this regard, and you impress them with your easy going, professional attitude, and then during the flight with one of their pilots - you may have just made a friend first hand - that never hurts.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by sgs233a

May I ask where in Ontario you live that it's an 800 KM drive to find a person do an IPC ride, but only 300 KM to find someone in the US? There's a lot of aviation in the more remote areas, and there are a number of folks around most of those areas (unless you're in a really remote northern area) that can do these rides.... It may be worth calling around commercial operators in your area and seeing if you can get the name of someone closer who can help you out.... Also any FTUs, of course.

Also, pretty sure Pilot DAR is quite familiar with remote areas and has been around Canadian aviation for quite some time. I'd be inclined to listen to his advice.

I don't really need to call around. TC provides you name of every PE upon request, alone with their authorizations (e.g. instrument/instruction etc).

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

This.

I have found TC very agreeable to a special arrangement when it made good sense, and was born of necessity (geographical common sense). When I needed a ride for my multi engine endorsement, I had a lot of trouble finding an "examiner" who had any experience in Cessna 310's (in which I had trained privately - I had the plane). None of the schools flew them, so their instructors knew nothing of them. I found a qualified and experienced "examiner", but he was not a public "examiner", and rather distant. I proposed to TC and the insurer, no problem, I could fly the airplane solo there for my ride. It went very well. TC inspectors have means to allow some exemptions/exceptions for special needs - if you approach them with a reasoned plan - and a favourable attitude.

And, should you find a more local commercial operator who is willing to help you out in this regard, and you impress them with your easy going, professional attitude, and then during the flight with one of their pilots - you may have just made a friend first hand - that never hurts.

So your suggestion is flying 800 KM to meet an examiner, than pay $500 fee, when I can simply drive 300 KM and meet a CFII and pay $70 (US) per hour, total $140 (and in both cases you have to add the airplane hourly rate). We only have one big FTU, and they have one PE, without instrument authorization and no will to get one.

this is quite bad offer and prove my point..

The only viable option is TC sending their own inspector, as it costs $245, but they will never do that for IPC.

[Pilot DAR]

So your suggestion is flying 800 KM to meet an examiner

.....Was not my suggestion, nor that of the other poster offering a helpful suggestion. It certainly appears to me that you focus on your perceived problems, the the exclusion of pursuing solutions for yourself. You are entitled to see problems rather than solutions, if that is your preference.

Aviation is filled with challenges. How you handle those challenges is your own success/frustration personally. How the industry sees how you handle those challenges will be your success being employed by people who solve problems for a living.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

.....Was not my suggestion, nor that of the other poster offering a helpful suggestion. It certainly appears to me that you focus on your perceived problems, the the exclusion of pursuing solutions for yourself. You are entitled to see problems rather than solutions, if that is your preference.

Aviation is filled with challenges. How you handle those challenges is your own success/frustration personally. How the industry sees how you handle those challenges will be your success being employed by people who solve problems for a living.

Most sane people would rather pay $70 Vs $1000, even if it means travelling to the US, unless they are banned entry into the US.
People are just upset about it because many did knew this option is available, and already paid that huge price, and therefore they want others to pay that as well.

Every LEGAL solution works at the end of the day. My post was just to confirm the AC, in case a new one came out

[Pilot DAR]

My post was just to confirm the AC, in case a new one came out

Excellent! The TC website (not "other" websites) is the place to get the current standards from TC. If that's where you got it, that's what you work with. You're in Canada, seeking advancement in the Canadian system, so that's what you work with.....

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are more ACP's than then there are PE's. I find it hard to believe that there is not one relatively close to you.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever

There are more ACP's than then there are PE's. I find it hard to believe that there is not one relatively close to you.

Because there are no sim here. All the candidates/employees are sent to Toronto area or to the States if there is no sim for that type of A/C. It's not too difficult to believe

My understanding from this is that an ACP can't just climb on any airplane and do that IPC.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

Excellent! The TC website (not "other" websites) is the place to get the current standards from TC. If that's where you got it, that's what you work with. You're in Canada, seeking advancement in the Canadian system, so that's what you work with.....

I actually use Google to look up ACs as it's much more user friendly in terms of searching, but only review the answers from TC.

I just wanted to make sure since TC do recognize FAA CFII's IPC, which is 95% of all US instructors, if not more, so I want to double check.

Funny thing - most of the FAA IPC can be done on almost any sim, except for the circling approach and unusual attitudes (and no partial panel is needed and TC still accepts it), so that right there is huge saving.
That is all I wanted to confirm.

[Pilot DAR]

Confirming is excellent, good on you for that. In my work with TC over the decades, I know that it is very important to them that you source your authoritative information from the authority, not another source (use their website). But if you've checked the origin of the information you received as being TC, I guess that's okay...

[+TSRA]

Originally Posted by aviran

My understanding from this is that an ACP can't just climb on any airplane and do that IPC.

You're not wrong, but you're not right either. All Type A ACPs are automatically assigned the authorization to conduct PPC/IFR rides as a component of their ACP accreditation. The only caveat to conducting a ride on a pilot who is not associated with an air operator is that the ACP must obtain authorization from TC first. When checking for an air operator who reports to one of the regional TC offices, this is nothing more than a phone call to Transport to have the authorization placed on the ACP letter for an aircraft that was previously flown or to obtain the "all non-type rating" blanket. Once those authorizations were obtained, the ACP has to prove that those authorizations are still required during the triennial monitor. An ACP who works for an air operator who reports to national cannot conduct rides outside of the company, but I highly doubt you have an Air Canada or WestJet ACP near you if you're in a remote part of the country.

That is why BPF is telling you to look for an ACP at an air operator near you. They would likely have a Type A ACP who either has, or can quickly obtain, the authorizations needed to conduct an IPC on you. When properly authorized, an ACP is able to conduct an IPC on wing instead of in a sim, and this can be combined with the applicable rating if necessary.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by +TSRA

You're not wrong, but you're not right either. All Type A ACPs are automatically assigned the authorization to conduct PPC/IFR rides as a component of their ACP accreditation. The only caveat to conducting a ride on a pilot who is not associated with an air operator is that the ACP must obtain authorization from TC first. When checking for an air operator who reports to one of the regional TC offices, this is nothing more than a phone call to Transport to have the authorization placed on the ACP letter for an aircraft that was previously flown or to obtain the "all non-type rating" blanket. Once those authorizations were obtained, the ACP has to prove that those authorizations are still required during the triennial monitor. An ACP who works for an air operator who reports to national cannot conduct rides outside of the company, but I highly doubt you have an Air Canada or WestJet ACP near you if you're in a remote part of the country.

That is why BPF is telling you to look for an ACP at an air operator near you. They would likely have a Type A ACP who either has, or can quickly obtain, the authorizations needed to conduct an IPC on you. When properly authorized, an ACP is able to conduct an IPC on wing instead of in a sim, and this can be combined with the applicable rating if necessary.

Actually Air Canada do operates here, and the other airlines use Third party only for the training.. The major FTU here (basically the only FTU here) already looked that up, not so much for the exams, as the ACP can't do those (initial multi and multi IFR), but for the IPC.

Also it doesn't negate the $500 Vs $70. Aviation is expansive as it is, I don't see a reason why it should be more expansive when TC themselves allow for much more affordable and quicker option (most CFI in the States can do IPC on same day. In most cases you can literally just show up to a school and jump on the Sim/airplane/both, whereas with an ACP you'd have to book, wait and pay).

I do appreciate the info though!